Feasibility of Electronic and Automated Offside Calls

[ForzaGrifo]

Being a computer guy and a football fanatic, I've been thinking about this lately. With today's technology is it technically possible for electronically making offside calls so the process is automated and thus eliminate possibility of linesmen making erroneous calls?

Note that I'm not talking about whether electronic offside calls SHOULD BE used or not (this has been discussed countless times). I'm just talking about the TECHNICAL feasibility. These are the areas to be considered:

1. Accuracy -- I'm thinking of using GPS system to tracking all 22 players on pitch and the position of the ball. Can today's GPS technology be accurate enough to track player/ball position down to the nearest centimeter, and be able to update the positions within hundredths of a second?

2. Deployment -- I'm not familiar at all with GPS. Can GPS tracking receivers be small enough (to the size of a small thin microchip) so that they can be embedded in the player jersey perhaps?

3. Stability -- Can weather affect the system in anyway? How about mobile phones and other radio frequencies?

Any technically or GPS-savvy forumers want to chip in on this discussion?

[denver_mugwamp]

GPS is probably not the way to go since it takes some time to acquire the satellites and calculate a position. There's been some experiments in regards to using active id tags to calculate the position of people using triangulation. Check out this open source approach to RFID tags called Open Beacon. (http://www.openbeacon.org/) There's also an interesting article about a conference in Berlin. (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72364-0.html) This would seem to have problems for soccer since the tag itself might be onside while the person has part of their body past the last defender. The only way I see that this could possibly work would be if you used a series of high definition cameras and some sort of Artificial Intelligence program to calculate the exact positions of all the players. This stuff is already available in various forms and used for animation and special effects in movies like Toy Story. It's not cheap but it would do the job. Automated goal scoring is farily easy in comparision. Hope this helps.

[ForzaGrifo]

This would seem to have problems for soccer since the tag itself might be onside while the person has part of their body past the last defender.

Thanks for the links and quick reply. I'll read the articles later. But correct me if I'm wrong. I've always thought offside call is made based on the position of the player's chest (or upper torso). So if the chest is onside but other parts of the body is past the last defender, the player is still onside.

[denver_mugwamp]

Thanks for the links and quick reply. I'll read the articles later. But correct me if I'm wrong. I've always thought offside call is made based on the position of the player's chest (or upper torso). So if the chest is onside but other parts of the body is past the last defender, the player is still onside.

You may be right about the calls. Where would you put the tag? Remember, the offensive player is facing towards the goal but the defensive player is likely facing away from the goal. You can't put the tag in the center of the torso since that would require surgery.

[ForzaGrifo]

Right GPS is not feasible. Even the best military satellites cannot track position down to the nearest centimeter.

The RFID tag looks interesting. But I wonder how small they can be made into and how to imbed into player and avoid breakage and also be comfortable to the player.

[ForzaGrifo]

You may be right about the calls. Where would you put the tag? Remember, the offensive player is facing towards the goal but the defensive player is likely facing away from the goal. You can't put the tag in the center of the torso since that would require surgery.

Perhaps put one in the front and one on the back, and calculate the average.

[dreamer]

Perhaps put one in the front and one on the back, and calculate the average.



Or two different receivers get activated based on the direction he is facing.

I think this is the right direction. But it's going to take some time to work out all the kinks.

At the beginning, maybe a hybrid system works better.For example, RFID tags and small hand-held RFID terminals for the linesmen to allow them a chance to instantly review the call. This would go a long way eliminating erroneous calls.

[ForzaGrifo]

holy crap dreamer you scared the shit out of me. Didn't expect you to join this thread so quickly... :)

[dreamer]

holy crap dreamer you scared the shit out of me. Didn't expect you to join this thread so quickly... :)


My account is RFIDed up. :D

After seeing how fantastically the new "challenge" feature, which is basically a hybrid system that allows both instant replay and player-ref interaction, in tennis has worked out at Flushing Meadows last year, I think something should be done about soccer to reduce the level of friction caused by the low tech past.

[ForzaGrifo]

My account is RFIDed up. :D


LOL


After seeing how fantastically the new "challenge" feature, which is basically a hybrid system that allows both instant replay and player-ref interaction, in tennis has worked out at Flushing Meadows last year, I think something should be done about soccer to reduce the level of friction caused by the low tech past.

I don't know how that feature works. I'm not really a tennis fan.

[dreamer]

LOL


I don't know how that feature works. I'm not really a tennis fan.


Basically the player can question a call. Instead of getting yelled at by the ref and mocked by the fans, the player gets to make use of one of the two challenges he/she has per set to review the play with everybody including the audience on the big screen. If the player is right, he/she still has two more challenges left for the remainder of the set. If the palyer is wrong, he/she will have one challenge less.

The fans love it because of the drama and the instant gratification of knowing the ending of this drama. The players love it because they can reverse questionalbe calls. The refs love it because they're getting abused less from the players and fans, for obvious reasons. :)

I think the Shanghai Open followed the US Open last year. And now the Australian Open this year also had it.

[Jabinho]

Can anyone describe the actual technology on the tennis system?
I guess some may wonder that if technology might have the possibility of application to soccer in the future.
If anyone knows the name of that system we can find out on the net at a site like "How Things Work" or somewhere..

[ForzaGrifo]

Basically the player can question a call. Instead of getting yelled at by the ref and mocked by the fans, the player gets to make use of one of the two challenges he/she has per set to review the play with everybody including the audience on the big screen. If the player is right, he/she still has two more challenges left for the remainder of the set. If the palyer is wrong, he/she will have one challenge less.

The fans love it because of the drama and the instant gratification of knowing the ending of this drama. The players love it because they can reverse questionalbe calls. The refs love it because they're getting abused less from the players and fans, for obvious reasons. :)

I think the Shanghai Open followed the US Open last year. And now the Australian Open this year also had it.

Is the instant replay just a televised replay or is there some kind of computerized tracking system?

I remember seeing a televised tennis match some time ago (forgot which tournament it was) that showed an computer animation replay of the ball's trajectory whenever the call is questionable. Perhaps that's the type of replay you or denver_mugwamp mentioned?

[Jabinho]

I remember seeing a televised tennis match some time ago (forgot which tournament it was) that showed an computer animation replay of the ball's trajectory whenever the call is questionable. Perhaps that's the type of replay you or denver_mugwamp mentioned?Yes.. That's what is being refered to..
Just trying to get a description of the technology behind it..
It can show if a ball is in or out down to a couple of millimeters or something incredible..

[dreamer]

Yes.. That's what is being refered to..
Just trying to get a description of the technology behind it..
It can show if a ball is in or out down to a couple of millimeters or something incredible..


Think it's called the Hawk-eye. A camera system I think. No RFID in it.

[dreamer]

Is the instant replay just a televised replay or is there some kind of computerized tracking system?



It's an instant replay on the big screen. It's only for games that are played in the courts ie the center court equipped with big TV screens.

[Jabinho]

Think it's called the Hawk-eye. A camera system I think. No RFID in it.
Thanks.. That's what we needed.. A name:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/3851023.stm

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/01b844f7a848d010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye

They are using it in Cricket too..
Also: . Hawk-Eye is already working on implementing a system for basketball.

[denver_mugwamp]

Soccer would be a lot tougher than tennis:

You can't stop the game to challenge.
You have to coordinate with the kick of the ball.
You have to tell the difference between an offensive and a defensive player.
How do you do a delayed call?
The system would have to ignore a player who doesn't play the ball.


There's lots of other issues. It's not impossible just very, very difficult.

[dreamer]

Soccer would be a lot tougher than tennis:

You can't stop the game to challenge.
You have to coordinate with the kick of the ball.
You have to tell the difference between an offensive and a defensive player.
How do you do a delayed call?
The system would have to ignore a player who doesn't play the ball.


There's lots of other issues. It's not impossible just very, very difficult.


For the purpose of calling offsides, how about this?

RFID tags in both the front and back of every player's boots and shirts that can record clearing their positions digitally at any given moment.

Two incorrect challenges per game per team. When a call or a non-call is challenged, play the footprints of the RFID tags on the big screen TV for everyone to see.

We may lose a couple of minutes from the replays, but the fans will love the added drama and the instant gratification of knowing who is right and who is wrong.

[denver_mugwamp]

For the purpose of calling offsides, how about this?

RFID tags in both the front and back of every player's boots and shirts that can record clearing their positions digitally at any given moment.

Two incorrect challenges per game per team. When a call or a non-call is challenged, play the footprints of the RFID tags on the big screen TV for everyone to see.

We may lose a couple of minutes from the replays, but the fans will love the added drama and the instant gratification of knowing who is right and who is wrong.

Yes, but don't sell any stock in your company yet. Presently available narrow beam antennas are in the 60 degree range. For the distances you're talking about, that would not give accurate enough coordinates. And as for challenges, lotsa luck getting that past FIFA. Nobody is going to want timeouts in the middle of a game.

I still think the only real possibility is some form of camera-based system and even then, it would act as an aid to the officials rather than calling offside. By the way, some countries have a system they use on TV that correctly states the distance on a free kick. That's a good start.