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Mack_Dundee
06 Feb 2007, 09:48 PM
Before there was a St. Louis expansion thread on this forum, there was a topic in the general expansion forum area discussing possible locations for a stadium in the St. Louis area. Since we have a forum of our own, and since we don't know which locations Jeff Cooper is looking at outside of Collinsville, I wanted to start a new thread for this discussion.

I agree with just about everyone who has commented on the subject that, in terms of selling a St. Louis MLS team, a downtown location would be the ideal. Some may take the attitude that true soccer fans will drive anywhere for a game within the region. But St. Louis is NOT any different than ANY city in the US or Canada in that a team would need to attract not only the already converted soccer fan, but also the non-converted or casual fan. While a guy who wakes up at 6 AM every Saturday morning and puts on his Blackburn Rovers jersey to watch the EPL might drive anywhere in the region, a "typical" fan may not be interested in buying season tickets for his family of four if it means driving an hour and a half to a game and an hour and a half home from a game to a section of the region that they would otherwise wish to avoid. I believe Collinsville's location, in particular, would be a significant obstacle that I worry a St. Louis club would be unable to overcome. One can roll there eyes and complain that soccer fans should just be happy to have a team, but what about the POTENTIAL soccer fan?

To me, the idea of additional soccer fields with the project, as other teams have done, is an unneccessary burden to the project. The St. Louis region isn't exactly lacking in parks and I don't think I've seen a park in the city that doesn't have at least one set of soccer goalposts. Plus, the Soccer Park already fills the bill. Another Soccer Park would be, at this time, redundant. If the deal was just for a stadium (one with the dual-purpose of hosting concerts such as those in Chicago and Dallas) and if it included additional commercial or housing development, the deal could be tweaked so that it would be eligible for tax credits as has happened with much of the development downtown. Such a development would be attractive to Rollin Stanley and his vision of downtown. Also, such a deal could be attractive to outside developers already involved in downtown, including some from out of town.

If MLS, and US soccer in general, want to shake the notion of the sport as a white suburban game, I would think they might want to place teams in areas that aren't overwhelmingly white and suburban. A downtown stadium would have the greatest opportunity, in my opinion, of attracting people throughout the region and from various demographic groups. If located near Soulard/Chouteau's Landing, the Central West End/Forest Park or Washington Avenue (where there is plenty of room for development) the spill-off from the neighborhood would help make the gameday experience top-notch.

By the way, the Isle Of Capri Casinos, who were willing to build a new arena for the Pittsburgh Penguins are headquartered in St. Louis. Is the deal with Pinnacle for exclusive rights to gaming on Laclede's Landing? If not, I'd love to see a stadium either there or, my preference, Chouteau Landing (which is across from Soulard on Broadway http://www.chouteauslanding.com/ ). A soccer-specific stadium could help give the Choteau Landing project an extra an extra push. When the MLS switches to the European seasonal schedule a game during Mardi Gras, if a team is near Soulard, would be a must.

Sport Billy
06 Feb 2007, 11:01 PM
I've always liked this spot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pjmad/Misc/TrumanParkway.jpg

Easy access from I-44, I-55, I-64 and Metrolink.

Park Ave. in the Layette Square area has lots of restaurants and is still growing.

The new Truman Parkway is fantastic

m16t
07 Feb 2007, 10:04 AM
In my opinion, anyone who's getting excited about a stadium potentially being downtown is setting him- or herself up for disappointment.

Nerazzuri
07 Feb 2007, 10:16 AM
As a Lafayette Squre resident, that'd be a great location, though parking could be a bit of a hassle for others.

But I do agree with m16t, not likely to happen. Too much red tape involved with getting anything done in the city, and not as beneficial from a cost standpoint.

Monarch Bay Beachbum
07 Feb 2007, 01:07 PM
I used to live down on Sidney Street and would run around Lafayette Square just to look at the beautiful old homes. I do not see wheere there is a large enough barren parcel in the above map. Am I missing something? Are you saying the city should use eminent domain? I think people don't realize all that is involved in a project of this size.

Sport Billy
07 Feb 2007, 04:05 PM
A lot of the stuff - mostly between Truman and 11th - is vacant abandoned projects. I know that the City is trying to redo some of that area, so you maybe correct about there not being enough land.

I did hear some time ago, that they were going to get rid of all of those rail tracks between Chouteau and 40 - that would open up a lot of room.

Wmpann
07 Feb 2007, 08:47 PM
Although there is political issues and red tape that would probably never allow for a new stadium in the downtown, it is not "physically" impossible. I dont understand the trend with having yourth soccer fields directly around a soccer stadium! This should never be used as a excuse to not put a stadium downtown beucase it is actualy beneficial for a team to have field just a little outside the city for the important reason of land value. If a stadium is downtown and the practice/youth fields in collinsville, this would be a perfect setup because the team could always sell the fields for revenue (assuming hte price of the land goes up). I beleive Real Madrid did this not to long ago.

On another note, i think another great area for a stadium would be at manchcester and 40ish just south of the CWE. The area is where a Sams and Target used to be and has never been succesful.

Sport Billy
07 Feb 2007, 11:47 PM
On another note, i think another great area for a stadium would be at manchcester and 40ish just south of the CWE. The area is where a Sams and Target used to be and has never been succesful.

You mean just south of Dogtown - where that guy got popped in his car outside Walmart?

Not a bad choice - easy access from 40 or 44 and now metrolink.

m16t
08 Feb 2007, 10:30 AM
I did hear some time ago, that they were going to get rid of all of those rail tracks between Chouteau and 40 - that would open up a lot of room.

Yes, and put in a lake......

EastSider
08 Feb 2007, 11:26 AM
Yes, and put in a lake......

If memory serves, it was to restore a lake that was there once, Chouteau's Pond, I think. I spoke with a merchant located on Chouteau just east of the Chouteau bridge last spring when the bridge was still being rebuilt. The bridge was supposed to open summer 2006, but was delayed according to her because they actually hit the pond when digging to set the pilings for the bridge.

BTW, the bridge finally opened a few weeks ago.

Sport Billy
08 Feb 2007, 11:51 AM
Yes, and put in a lake......

I guess I missed that part.:o
That my make field conditions less than desireable.;) Next location please.

m16t
08 Feb 2007, 01:22 PM
I guess I missed that part.:o
That my make field conditions less than desireable.;) Next location please.

Nah, they'd just need slightly longer cleats. ;)

(As an aside, yes, the plan would be to restore Choteau's Pond, after rerouting the train tracks between 40 and Purina -- roughly -- and surround the new, old pond with office buildings, condos, trails so as to better connect downtown with the south side. Will it happen? Probably not, but some out there *are* trying.)

As far as the "why do we need soccer fields?" argument: it's only to give a municipality viable, publically defendable reasons to give Cooper money. After Busch III and Ballpark Village (even though the public outlay is MUCH less than commonly thought), the city of St. Louis would have one hell of time trying to partially fund or even just give tax breaks for a soccer stadium.

Move the plan out to the 'burbs, say you're going to add tons of fields for local youth, bring tons of money into the community from youth tournaments, etc., facilitate a real community aspect to the plan ... and, voila, there's your public funding (or so the plan goes. See Dallas and Colorado.).

No one will argue that Collinsville, Earth City, etc. is the best place for a stadium. And I wish Cooper's group would pony up all the scratch privately and build in a more centrally located section of town. But he won't do that, so the only way we get a stadium at all is to chase the suburban money.

Angus Podgorney
08 Feb 2007, 04:01 PM
Yes, and put in a lake......

They said I was a fool to build a SSS in a swamp, but I did it any way, and it sank into the swamp...

Mizzou117
08 Feb 2007, 07:55 PM
They could temporarily play at Busch Soccer Park out in Fenton.... I thought they had a World Cup Qualifying match there back in the 90's... doesn't look like it would hold too many but at least give a temporary home until they can find a stadium solution.

Atarian
09 Feb 2007, 03:32 AM
Downtown next to Busch

MCreek05
11 Feb 2007, 12:19 AM
it seems to me like they could make a stadium part of the development with the lake

...so i built another stadium, which burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp

Mack_Dundee
11 Feb 2007, 02:26 AM
Great comments, guys! I love the idea of something near Layfayette Square but the issues mentioned already do seem to make the whole thing difficult.

Another cool location that I noticed today is on Washington Avenue. There is a school, I can't remember the name, but it's between Washinton, N. 18 St., N. 19th St., and Delmar that would be a PERFECT location, in my opinon. It is a small school (it may be a Catholic school) and the building isn't anything special at all (certainly it isn't historic) and the school's parking lot interrupts the flow of Washinton Avenue. All around this school there are residental and retail developments being planned with things like
The Majestic Stove Lofts and The Adler Lofts projects nearby. An SSS could really be a catalyst for this area as it tries to rebound. They want to do something like the Central West End or U City. Across the street on Delmar there is even an undeveloped field that could be used for parking. Another great thing is, besides drawing business to the soon-to-be developed locations, it's close to the Tap Room. At the Tap Room you can get a Schlafly in a great bar that already shows soccer. Plus, The Dubliner is within walking distance and the City Museum adds a cool vibe nearby. The key, besides relocating the school, would be to make the SSS part of a larger developement and take advantage of the tax credits just like the Cardinals are doing with Ballpark Village. Both Mayor Slay and his Deputy Mayor played college soccer, so I imagine they would at least consider pushing for the project.

For those interested in Downtown St. Louis development, I recommend the following website forum. Even some developers post. If you come up with an idea for an MLS stadium/development, you could always post it there. Or you could just fish for information and see if you can get the scoop on what Cooper is up to:

http://urbanstl.com/

Here's a PDF of the main projects:

http://www.downtownstl.org/docs/06DevelopmentUpdate.pdf

manunjdevil
12 Feb 2007, 09:28 AM
while it might have the possibility of helping rejuvinate downtown more...it will not happen. an mls team will not be able to exert the kind of pull the cards, or rams generated. they will suffer from the city tax, zoning, and parking issues. ever been to a sporting event downtown? parking is crap, and you have to hike a mile to get to the stadium...unless you paid $20 to park. plus the liklihood of getting ANOTHER bond issue for a sports team passed is minimal, at best.

it would make more sense to have the team somewhere in the west county area. somewhere that would have convenient access to I-270. if you could get bi-state off their posteriors, run metrolink to the stadium. the county has more open space to grow nearly everywhere. i believe that if the team will have the name of st. louis, it needs to be in the greater metropolitan region, which includes city AND county. (as opposed to east-nowhere, illinois) ;)

Guy Fawkes
12 Feb 2007, 05:17 PM
They could temporarily play at Busch Soccer Park out in Fenton.... I thought they had a World Cup Qualifying match there back in the 90's... doesn't look like it would hold too many but at least give a temporary home until they can find a stadium solution.


WAY too small. There's absolutely no way an MLS team would survive there, even with the relatively small attendances of the league. The best place to play temporarily would perhaps be the SLU stadium?

McGinty
12 Feb 2007, 06:52 PM
i believe that if the team will have the name of st. louis, it needs to be in the greater metropolitan region, which includes city AND county. (as opposed to east-nowhere, illinois) ;)

I don't see how places like Fenton (or places Chesterfield, Ballwin, and Wildwood) are any more a part of the "Greater Metropolitan Area" than Collinsville.