Ronaldinho Gaucho News and Discussion

[tpmazembe]

Though this next post is not Gaucho specific, given the recent amount of debate on Ronaldo in this thread I thought it might be appropriate. Its not an attempt on my part to present a defense of, nor advocate for, Ronaldo. Its just an interesting 9-part piece by Placar on "O Fenomeno":
RONALDO, O PREDESTINADO (http://placar.abril.com.br/novo/includes/materia/materia_342528_0.shtml)

The piece is too lengthy for me to translate at this time for none Portuguese readers, apologies. However, I did want to translate just this little piece of the interview with Ronaldo on page 9.

When Ronaldo was going through his bad phase a month ago, he lashed out at some people in frustration (understandable). The one comment at the time I thought was childish and almost vindictive is explored in the following segment.

Placar – Por que de repente esse desejo de “apagar a geração Pelé”? Você acha possível entrar para a história como o maior jogador brasileiro de todos os tempos?

Placar – By chance, why this desire to “erase Pele’s generation?” Do you believe that you can become the greatest brasilian player of all-time?

Ronaldo – Gostaria até de esclarecer. Disse isso, de fato, mas me expressei mal. Sinceramente. Sei que o futebol brasileiro é rico por toda a sua história de muitos anos. E a geração do Pelé começou a abrir o caminho de grandes títulos para nós. Não apenas ele, mas todos os que jogaram naquelas equipes serão inesquecíveis. O que quis dizer é que, pelos resultados que temos e poderemos ter, talvez nós fiquemos no mesmo patamar de importância. O Tostão, a quem admiro muito, jogou com o Pelé e fez uma coluna mais equilibrada sobre o que falei. Disse que sempre vão existir ótimos jogadores e que uns não apagarão os outros. Concordo. Daqui a 20, 30 anos, se Deus quiser, haverá uma geração que terá o mesmo número de títulos que a nossa, que a do Pelé. Só o futebol brasileiro é assim. Ser o maior jogador de todos tempos? Nem pensar. Esse posto é do Pelé com toda a justiça.

Ronaldo –I’d like to clarify. I indeed said those words, but expressed myself poorly. Sincerely. I know that brasilian football is rich for its history over many years. It was Pele’s generation that led the way for the big titles for us. Not just him, but all those that played on those teams will never be forgotten. What I was wanting to say was, given our accomplishments and what we can still accomplish, maybe we’ll reach the same level of importance. Tostao – who I admire greatly – played with Pele and wrote a balanced column regarding what I said. He said that there will always exist great players and one doesn’t erase others. I agree. Twenty or thirty years from now, God willing, there will be another generation that will have the same number of titles as ours, and of Pele’s. Brasilian football is unique in that sense. Become the best player of all time? Forget it. That position is Pele’s, and deservingly so.

He did a good job.
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Excuse the random nature of this post, but wanted to address two unrelated items.

Pele won WCs with two separate generations. A quick review of the 58-62 squads with the 70 squad will show you that he is the singular member of all of those. A minor point, but one that needs to kept in mind when being factual about Pele’s career. Maybe “era” is a more appropriate word.

[Also, it would be nice for those who comment on Pele's career and skills to actually have a base by which to do so....but that's wishful thinking on BS]

Similarly it’s a stretch to call 1994 and 2002 the same generation.

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Without taking sides on the Ronaldo, Gaucho, Romario debate underway, the following point is off the mark (R9magia already adressed it):
2. You are grossly dismissing Diego and Zizou's accomplishments. Zizou has accomplished as much, if not more than Ronaldo. In fact, I'm pretty sure Zizou has more titles than Ronaldo. As for the one La liga title Ronaldo won with Real, HE WAS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER ON THAT TEAM. That team was already great and really didn't need him. That takes nothing away from him, but let's just tell the truth as it is.They needed him bigtime to lift that title.

Ronaldo is the primary reason that Real won its last La Liga (2002-2003). Particularly his multiple match winning performances in the home stretch of that campaign.

Real may have been a "great" team in terms of players, but its not like they was running away with it at all - in the 33rd round they were in third place behind Deportiva and Real Sociedad. Thanks to Ronaldo they cleaned up down the stretch and won by a mere 2 points at the end of the 38th and final round of the league. The pundits, fans and the team itself recognized his decisive contributions. I remember those games well. He carried them down the stretch - not minimizing the team - but in the way that great offensive players do at times….we need to be historically factual here and give him due credit.

[One can recreate the stretch run round-by-round, and game-by-game with some patience here http://www.lfp.es/ ]

The Inter years are interesting to see as well. Whether or not they were loaded is arguable, but it’s hard to argue that their best year wasn't the healthy Ronaldo year.

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There is no bigger fan on Gaucho on this site. Based on the path of his club career - and barring injury - I'm positive he will end up in the discussion of GOAT by time he hangs it up.

[Redshift]

tpm,

That is a good article... it addresses quite a few things. If someone hasn't read it, it's definately worth the effort.

[ronaldinh010]

[QUOTE=tpmazembe]

Without taking sides on the Ronaldo, Gaucho, Romario debate underway, the following point is off the mark (R9magia already adressed it):
They needed him bigtime to lift that title.

Ronaldo is the primary reason that Real won its last La Liga (2002-2003). Particularly his multiple match winning performances in the home stretch of that campaign.

I don't disagree too much with your post overall.


I'll try to explain it this way. Had Ronaldo never come to Real, one could reasonably fathom that they may have won 1 La liga championship over the 3-4 years regardless. Again, they already had two top strikers. Morientes, in particular, was doing quite well and went on to do very well with Monaco. Now, once R9 was on the team, he was very important for them of course. Wile we're at it, we can point out they didn't fair too well in the CL (if my memory serves me right). In contrast, R10 was pivotal in turning Barca around.

There is no bigger fan on Gaucho on this site. Based on the path of his club career - and barring injury - I'm positive he will end up in the discussion of GOAT by time he hangs it up.

My only problem with that is that if Ronaldo is already in the GOAT discussion, Ronaldinho should also be in it; especially if he wins La liga & CL this year. If you ask me, they're both on the fringe of the discussion so far.

[SoccerScout]

All I know is we are going to see a legend in his Prime at this World Cup. Timing wise I doubt Ronaldinho will ever be any better than he can be in WC2006. Lets see what he does. The guy is simply amazing. Im proud that he was born in the same city as I.

[DutchCane]

Ronaldo is one of the greatest players we have ever seen. Imvho the difference between the past generations and this present, and future generation is the insany and psychotic amount of press coverage. When I was a kid growing up I had no idea what the average footballer ate for breakfast which clubs they frequented, etc. Sure there was media coverage but itwas different. Now I can see in my apartment in Manhattan, 24/7 coverage of what Ronaldo did for lunch, who he did it with, and then have a continous breakdown of how he should've done it better or differently. There is no more mystery, we know too damn much. Ergo it has made the players easier to scrutinize and critize. Im glad I came off age in an earlier time, because whoever said "Familiarity breeds contempt" was prophetic and summed up this 5,991,369 Channel Cable/Sattelite/Internet age perfectly.

[tpmazembe]

Nice post DutchCane.

If you read Spanish here are two quick but nice articles regarding Gaucho from Spain's El Pais on how he's continued to elevate his game.

La mejor temporada del 10 (http://www.elpais.es/articulo/deportes/mejor/temporada/elppordep/20060504elpepidep_8/Tes/)


Ya no juega con calzoncillos, sino con calentadores (http://www.elpais.es/articulo/deportes/juega/calzoncillos/calentadores/elppordep/20060504elpepidep_12/Tes/)
[I]"Ha sido mucho más determinante. Ha logrado más goles, ha dado más pases. Ha aparecido en muchos más partidos", señala Xavi. "Decisivo, mucho más decisivo", coincide Giuly.

"He's been much more a determining factor [relative to previous year]. He's scored more, and provided more assists. He's appeared [shone] in many more games" - Xavi.

"Decisive, much more decisive" - Giuly.

[celito]

I watched Barca's game yesterday and I saw a play that amazed me and just shows what kind of phase Ronaldinho is in. He was on the left of the field by the sideline at around PK box level. The ball came high in the air, with one touch he trapped the ball and had already beat the defender going sideways parallel to the goal towards the edge of the box. Then he spotted Larsson making a run on the other side of the box behind his defender. Ronaldinho hit an unbelievable pass to Larsson. The amazing part is that he hit the pass (he slapped the ball) so that the ball went all the way to Larsson's foot at about an inch or tow from the ground. I couldn't believe it.

[Ombak]

Nice post DutchCane.

If you read Spanish here are two quick but nice articles regarding Gaucho from Spain's El Pais on how he's continued to elevate his game.

La mejor temporada del 10 (http://www.elpais.es/articulo/deportes/mejor/temporada/elppordep/20060504elpepidep_8/Tes/)
[I call first dibs on the caricature in the preceding article for my next avatar :D ]Damn, I should have checked it out before you edited the post!

I know you were worried about me taking it! :D

[tpmazembe]

Damn, I should have checked it out before you edited the post!

I know you were worried about me taking it! :DYes, you were the primary suspect. :eek: :)

jcmartins was suspect no. 2.

Speaking of Gaucho, with La Liga won, I hope Rijkaard (sp) keeps him out of all but the CL Final. He's played a ton of games - all the high-pressure encounters - and I'd like to see him come into the WC with something left in the tank.

[neovox]

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/galeria/images/2006050608.jpg
Barcelona 2x0 Espanyol
[Gustau Nacarino/Reuters/06-05-06]


A man in his prime.

[thepundit]

that's ridiculous there are players on my high school team that are more complete than Ronaldinho but that doesn't mean they're even 1/10000 as good. i think it's hard to call Pele better than modern players because he played with a heavier ball which was harder to use, worse cleats, fields and nutrition. if you look at the highlights it's almost a different sport. i don't even bring players from that far back into the equation. and please stop bringing in stats from like 300 years ago; there are guys from all over who scored lots of World Cup goals in like 4000 BC. titles are significant but it's too much of a team sport to really weigh individuals like that. i think we can just take what we've seen personally and make our own judgements. i stated in my earlier post that Ronaldo pre-injury was easily the best player ever but some ignorant posters tore down my thread for not acknowledging his greatness! Zidane is great with his head and ultra-inventive with his feet. he's not so good anymore but there were many years where he was just classy. i'm not picking favorites here. i'm willing to admit that Joaquin, Denilson, Tomas Rosicky, Thierry Henry, Romario and Alex aren't the best players in the world. and please don't make an argument for Ronaldo as the greatest striker in the world based on his recent play. dude is not well. obviously the touch and finishing are still there but he doesn't put himself in situations where they come into play. he's not even top 10 in the world at his position right now.

i'm not sure what arguments i'm making here that everyone says are so crazy. the first sentence is implying that how "complete" a player is shouldn't be the chief factor in determining their worth. later i say that i don't like to make intergenerational comparisons because of the varying conditions. these variables make comparison extremely difficult. this is essentially a disclaimer; i'm only talking about the mid-80s and beyond. the one thing that i was wrong about was my saying Zidane was the best player of this 1985+ period. Ronaldo has been the best in my book. i stand by my statement that he's not top 10 in the world at his position on this season's form. start readinginto posts a bit more instead of just skimming over them.

i'd also like an explanation on why you guys think Ronaldinho is such a complete player. i view him as a complete offensive arsenal but he's not very good defensively. how can a player be so complete if he only performs one the 2 fundamental functions of soccer (attacking/defending)? do you mean to tell me Romario was a complete player as well? because he could dribble AND score? i believe my ignorance isn't nearly so severe as thine poor reading skills.

[ronaldinh010]

i'd also like an explanation on why you guys think Ronaldinho is such a complete player. i view him as a complete offensive arsenal but he's not very good defensively. how can a player be so complete if he only performs one the 2 fundamental functions of soccer (attacking/defending)? do you mean to tell me Romario was a complete player as well? because he could dribble AND score? i believe my ignorance isn't nearly so severe as thine poor reading skills.

OK. When. judging a player's completness, you have to do it with regard to his/her position. For example, can we say Puyol is not a complete player b/c he doesn't score enough goals or Ronaldo is not complete b/c of his lack in defense, or a goalkeeper is not complete b/c he doesn't dribble very well. It would be beyond absurd.

Now, Ronaldinho is an attacking midfielder not a defender. He is not asked to track back or play defense. As an attacking midfielder he's probably complete: vision, decision-making, passes, skills, athleticism (speed, quickness, agility, reaction time, etc...), dribbling, scoring, etc... He's not only good at all these things, he's top tier at almost all of them.

For a striker, one would look at: scoring, finishing touch, 1st touch, air ability, runs off the ball, ball control, skills, athleticism, etc.. but not as much weight on vision and passing.

I hope that explains it. Do you not think he's a complete player? Why?

[ronaldinh010]

I watched Barca's game yesterday and I saw a play that amazed me and just shows what kind of phase Ronaldinho is in. He was on the left of the field by the sideline at around PK box level. The ball came high in the air, with one touch he trapped the ball and had already beat the defender going sideways parallel to the goal towards the edge of the box. Then he spotted Larsson making a run on the other side of the box behind his defender. Ronaldinho hit an unbelievable pass to Larsson. The amazing part is that he hit the pass (he slapped the ball) so that the ball went all the way to Larsson's foot at about an inch or tow from the ground. I couldn't believe it.

Dude, I saw that too. I was on the phone with my brother who hates R10 and anything Brazilian, stopped in his track and said ever so solemnly: "Damn, what a pass!!" It was ridiculous. If this guy gets any better, he should be banned from playing.

[thepundit]

OK. When. judging a player's completness, you have to do it with regard to his/her position. For example, can we say Puyol is not a complete player b/c he doesn't score enough goals or Ronaldo is not complete b/c of his lack in defense, or a goalkeeper is not complete b/c he doesn't dribble very well. It would be beyond absurd.

it doesn't make sense to cut a huge part of the game out of the equation for completion. when i say a player isn't complete it's not necessarily a knock on the player at all. i feel that you can say Puyol isn't a complete player because he doesn't have goalscoring ability, but as you say, it's not a big deal because he's a defender. you can't ask a defender to score a lot of goals. but does that mean we shouldn't even consider it when we talk about whether or not he's complete? if you're going to take the person's position into heavy account say "complete striker" rather than "complete player." you're misusing the word "complete" if you don't look at every aspect of the game. Ronaldinho is the world's best player but that doesn't for a second mean that he's the most complete. he's good at everything he's asked to do. he's not good at everything. so please guys, stop talking shit when somebody's actually looking at stuff from an approach whose difference from yours is based entirely on the definition of a phrase (in this instance, "complete player"). one guy told me to quit caring about soccer because i didn't believe somebody like Buffon or Ronaldinho could be judged as complete. i guess Bruce Lee was the most complete actor of all time because his skill in kung fu movies stood out more than anyone's prowess in his field or any other? i might not know as much about Brazilian soccer as some of you but some of you need to revisit your logic. one

[neovox]

Poor reasoning is simply... poor, whether it is agreeable or not. :o

[thepundit]

explain how saying that something can't be complete if it's missing parts is poor reasoning, please.

[AuriVerde]

I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain why Ronaldinho is a complete player to this guy,mates.

[thepundit]

is a Lamborghini a complete automobile because it can go 200 mph but can't haul rocks? i'd say it's a complete supercar. it's a lot cooler, and in my opinion better, than a truck. but it's not more complete. completeness isn't a big deal. we're not arguing about Ronaldino's skills we're arguing about a concept. you guys just have this notion that complete automatically = good. it doesn't.

[Ombak]

is a Lamborghini a complete automobile because it can go 200 mph but can't haul rocks? i'd say it's a complete supercar. it's a lot cooler, and in my opinion better, than a truck. but it's not more complete. completeness isn't a big deal. we're not arguing about Ronaldino's skills we're arguing about a concept. you guys just have this notion that complete automatically = good. it doesn't.I'd say a better analogy is that you're complaining that a car is not a complete vehicle because it can't fly.

Well, it's not meant to.

Unless you expect all 11 players to be capable at every possible aspect of the game, you have to consider someone complete within a certain context.

[ronaldinh010]

it doesn't make sense to cut a huge part of the game out of the equation for completion. when i say a player isn't complete it's not necessarily a knock on the player at all. i feel that you can say Puyol isn't a complete player because he doesn't have goalscoring ability, but as you say, it's not a big deal because he's a defender. you can't ask a defender to score a lot of goals. but does that mean we shouldn't even consider it when we talk about whether or not he's complete? if you're going to take the person's position into heavy account say "complete striker" rather than "complete player." you're misusing the word "complete" if you don't look at every aspect of the game. Ronaldinho is the world's best player but that doesn't for a second mean that he's the most complete. he's good at everything he's asked to do. he's not good at everything. so please guys, stop talking shit when somebody's actually looking at stuff from an approach whose difference from yours is based entirely on the definition of a phrase (in this instance, "complete player"). one guy told me to quit caring about soccer because i didn't believe somebody like Buffon or Ronaldinho could be judged as complete. i guess Bruce Lee was the most complete actor of all time because his skill in kung fu movies stood out more than anyone's prowess in his field or any other? i might not know as much about Brazilian soccer as some of you but some of you need to revisit your logic. one


With your definition, there is never a complete player. I usually consider a player complete, when he excells at about everything that is asked of him/her and it seems his capabilities on the field are unlimitted. As for Ronnie, you still haven't told me where you think his game is limitted. Since he's not asked to play defense we can't say that he's not good at it. He certainly has the speed and physicality and when he does decide to challenge for the ball, he does well. I have not talked crap to you. I do think your logic here is flawed. We play football on a big field with 11 players. To ask a player to do it all is just unfair (to say the least). You say things like " cut a huge part of the game," "missing parts." Playing defense is certainly a part of the game, the entire game (>100-meter field, 11 players, etc...), but not necessarily part of an individual player's game or job description. We're looking at one player. Hell, maybe R10 would not be very good at GK, that makes him less complete? You'll probably never agree or admit it even if you did, but it would be hard to argue that anything, anywhere, in any field is "complete" using your concept.