Argentinos abroad (R)

[Pipiolo]

So Tevez was the best player after Diego left....What does that say? Since Diego was better than Tevez, you have to limit the timeframe to a 2 yr pd. You're compressing timeframe to suite your argument, also known as data mining.

But if that's what you want to do great. Still Diego and Tevez are players from the same generation who emerged at the same time.


As for South American players not flourishing in England. Firstly, not that many elite south american attackers have gone to England, nowhere near the amounts that have gone to Spain or Italy, so from the start your argument is weak. Secondly, are you saying they're not good enough? That's exactly what it sounds like. "Game isn't suited to them"..."don't get time on the ball"..."lifestyle is different"... if you need defenders to give you time on the ball, you're not a skillful player! got it?

As for ruining South Americans, it has nothing to do with the EPL, the main reason attacking south americans have failed is because firstly most of the best ones haven't gone there, and the good ones that have gone have not been played in systems that are suitable to their game. That can happen anywhere in the world, just ask the Barca coach who put Riquelme on the left wing (!).

Tevez won the South American Player of the Year award in 2003 and 2004, when Diego was still at Santos. Tevez would also would win it in 2005 with Corinthians, which I believe it makes him the only player to have won it with two different clubs.

[Dr. Know]

Tell me one footballer who was an attacker or creator that flourished in the EPL that was from South America in oh lets say the last 10 years? Veron failed(Was great for Lazio goes to England and fails), Diego Forlan failed at Manchester United(Leaves and becomes Golden boot winner in Europe) Tevez(Saves West Ham, goes to Unitedwins trophies but loses his entire game. Watch his days at Boca and Corinthian and watch him, not even half the player that he was) Robinho. Crespo and Santa Cruz had mediocre to decent spells in England. The EPL game is not suited for our boys nor South Americans.

Besdies Solano who was mentioned there have been a few.

D'Alessandro had a good loan spell at Portsmouth and Zarate had a good one at Birmingham City.

Though he spent some time between the EPL and Colaship with Sunderland and Middlesbrough Julio Arca also performed well in England.

Antonio Valencia performed very well for Wigan and is now at ManUtd.

Hugo Rodallega has been doing well for Wigan also.

Geovanni at Hull City.

[Dr. Know]

Not even close, the best player coming out of South America at that time was Diego Ribas da Cunha.

Huh? Robinho who was part of that same Santos side was much much more hyped than Diego. As was Luis Fabiano coming out of Sao Paulo who had a very good Copa America in 04'.

Diego failed at Porto and he immidiately fell off people's maps till he started performing well again for Werder Bremen.

Tevez was seen as a better player than all of them.

[gmonn]

Juninho Paulista

[TKORL]

Long sigh. Ok when Diego and Tevez were in South America at the same time Tevez was better, if you do not want to believe that is fine, then don't. From what I saw in Tevez with Boca and Corinthian I had not seen it in South America for a long time. Him leaving Boca and going to Brasil was also fishy to me(But I think it was his shaddy management that pulled off this deal and the one that he went to West Ham).

There is a reason why the elite did not go to England. It's not the money, I could tell you that much. They could make a lot more in England then elsewhere. Look at Brasil(Hate to make Brasil the example) winning side of 2002 WC,Copa CA 04,Conf Cup 05,CA 07,Conf Cup 09 how many of their players played in England??? All of them were in Ita,Bra,Esp,or else where in Europe. I am not saying they are not good enough but they just do not do well, that is how it is. How would a Higuain or Kun done if they went to England right after they left Argentina? Higuain would be with the reserves and Kun would be warming the bench game in game out. But they are doing fine in Spain because that is a more suitable, it is not a total 360. They still play Argentino football with style and holding the ball and hitting the right angles and cuts but going to England well then you have to play their style which is totally the opposite of ours. And yes their have been plenty of Argentinos that have gone elsewhere and failed beyond belief such as Maxi Lopez,Palermo,Lucho Figueroa and I could continue. But MY ENTIRE point is, we build our kids to play our football through the youth ranks and clubs then sell them off. I would rather our kids go to Spain,Italy and Portugal just to continue their development. We build them up to play our game and go to England and lose everything that they have learned in the past.

I was a massive Tevez fan but since he has lost his game I would rather he does not even be on our team. If he had gone to a Spanish club after South America I would believe he would be the player that we saw 5 years ago or so.
You're disagreeing with me and then going on to say exactly what I said..... the best south american talents have not gone to England. One big reason why they did not succeed there.

You're right that many South Americans wouldn't do well in England, that has more to do with the shitty level of coaching in the EPL, and that the systems they use there just don't work well with our players.

Now that they have some coaches who have successfully worked with South American players that will change.

[TKORL]

Huh? Robinho who was part of that same Santos side was much much more hyped than Diego. As was Luis Fabiano coming out of Sao Paulo who had a very good Copa America in 04'.

Diego failed at Porto and he immidiately fell off people's maps till he started performing well again for Werder Bremen.

Tevez was seen as a better player than all of them.
Robinho was more hyped than Diego mostly by clueless fans who saw videos of him doing his stepovers. But there were many who also said Diego was better.

Luis Fabiano was outshined by Adriano at that CA, which many were surprised by because Fabiano was Brazil's top scorer. Being top scorer in Brazil doesn't mean greatest talent in South America, as clearly a number haven't made a successful jump.

Tevez was putting in great performances as well, but I thought Diego was better than all of them, I personally put him above Kaka at that time (there were a number of others who did as well), which I still stand by. I admit I'm biased towards playmakers, but I think I'll Diego has shown himself to be better than both Robinho and Tevez, but not yet Kaka.

[TKORL]

Besdies Solano who was mentioned there have been a few.

D'Alessandro had a good loan spell at Portsmouth and Zarate had a good one at Birmingham City.

Though he spent some time between the EPL and Colaship with Sunderland and Middlesbrough Julio Arca also performed well in England.

Antonio Valencia performed very well for Wigan and is now at ManUtd.

Hugo Rodallega has been doing well for Wigan also.

Geovanni at Hull City.
JP Angel

Deco

Eduardo

[TKORL]

Tevez won the South American Player of the Year award in 2003 and 2004, when Diego was still at Santos. Tevez would also would win it in 2005 with Corinthians, which I believe it makes him the only player to have won it with two different clubs.
Again, back to the achievements list. Look at his actual qualities as a player: he's short, he's not super fast, his technique is OK (there's about 4-5 other players on our team who have better technique than him), he's at OK at passing and vision (Rooney was clearly better). He's not suited to be either a striker or a 10. What he is suited to be is a forward on the left side of a trident who can use his aggression and energy to hassle and pressure the other team's defenders.

If he finds a team that suits his style of play, despite what I've said here, I think he still can be an excellent player at the highest level. But I think he has been given a lot of chances and we also have great options like Di Maria who should be given a look in over him and allowed to prove their worth.

[Dr. Know]

Robinho was more hyped than Diego mostly by clueless fans who saw videos of him doing his stepovers. But there were many who also said Diego was better.

No, there was huge hype out of Brazil. Some people were even claiming he was "the new Pele" :rolleyes:. He was simply rated higher.

Luis Fabiano was outshined by Adriano at that CA, which many were surprised by because Fabiano was Brazil's top scorer. Being top scorer in Brazil doesn't mean greatest talent in South America, as clearly a number haven't made a successful jump.

He was outshines but that doesn't take away form the fact that he had a good tournament and was thus being hyped. His performances for Sao Paulo plus that put him high on a lot of people's lists.

Tevez was putting in great performances as well, but I thought Diego was better than all of them, I personally put him above Kaka at that time (there were a number of others who did as well), which I still stand by. I admit I'm biased towards playmakers, but I think I'll Diego has shown himself to be better than both Robinho and Tevez, but not yet Kaka.

Tevez's Boca humiliated that Santos side that had Diego, Robihno, Ricardo Olivera, and Alex in the final of the Libertadores. He was voted best player of the tournament. Regardless of what you thought at the time Tevez was seen as a better player than any of them.

[Pekerman]

So Tevez was the best player after Diego left....What does that say? Since Diego was better than Tevez, you have to limit the timeframe to a 2 yr pd. You're compressing timeframe to suite your argument, also known as data mining.

But if that's what you want to do great. Still Diego and Tevez are players from the same generation who emerged at the same time.


As for South American players not flourishing in England. Firstly, not that many elite south american attackers have gone to England, nowhere near the amounts that have gone to Spain or Italy, so from the start your argument is weak. Secondly, are you saying they're not good enough? That's exactly what it sounds like. "Game isn't suited to them"..."don't get time on the ball"..."lifestyle is different"... if you need defenders to give you time on the ball, you're not a skillful player! got it?

As for ruining South Americans, it has nothing to do with the EPL, the main reason attacking south americans have failed is because firstly most of the best ones haven't gone there, and the good ones that have gone have not been played in systems that are suitable to their game. That can happen anywhere in the world, just ask the Barca coach who put Riquelme on the left wing (!).


Disagree with your views about Tevez and definetly disagree with your simplistic idea of what good defending is. By commiting early defenders expose themselves and start leaking eventually. That is why any forward with pace even with below average skills can be more than successful in the EPL (Tons of examples of that). Spanish and Italian defenses are harder to penetrate, more organized and generally have higher quality defenders. Don't let Chelsea or Manu's defense fool you, they don't represent the level of the league. I think Benfica can rip apart most mid-tables epl teams. EPL is simply not optimal environment for most of our players, places uncessary handicaps and limit the development of key Argentinian traits (dribbling for one)

Tevez never had much of a pace. He was a good dribbler, handled the ball brilliantly and still does. BTW I have been impressed from what I have seen from him with City. Not many goals but very strong performances.

[TKORL]

Tevez won the South American Player of the Year award in 2003 and 2004, when Diego was still at Santos. Tevez would also would win it in 2005 with Corinthians, which I believe it makes him the only player to have won it with two different clubs.
By that logic Zidane is the greatest player of all time.

[TKORL]

No, there was huge hype out of Brazil. Some people were even claiming he was "the new Pele" :rolleyes:. He was simply rated higher.
Many rated Robinho higher but that's what happens when you do stepovers on demand, but there were also many who rated him lower than Diego, there's no objective standard to determine who was considered to be better. For example, here is an article I just searched for, read the first paragraph :
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=393091&cc=5901

Zidane has 3 or 4 WPOY, and I think David Beckham also won one once? Are they now the greatest of their generations.

[TKORL]

Spanish and Italian defenses are harder to penetrate, more organized and generally have higher quality defenders.
Italian league is strong in defenders but La Liga is weak compared to the EPL.


Tevez never had much of a pace. He was a good dribbler, handled the ball brilliantly and still does. BTW I have been impressed from what I have seen from him with City. Not many goals but very strong performances.

I've never denied he's a good player...we just have better ones.

[Dr. Know]

Many rated Robinho higher but that's what happens when you do stepovers on demand, but there were also many who rated him lower than Diego, there's no objective standard to determine who was considered to be better. For example, here is an article I just searched for, read the first paragraph :
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=393091&cc=5901

Look, Robihno was the star of that Santos side, he was the player that attracted the most European attention, and he was the player that people in Brazil were hyping. Some article written recently doesn't change that.

Zidane has 3 or 4 WPOY, and I think David Beckham also won one once? Are they now the greatest of their generations.

Huh? What on earth are you talking about? Tevez was considered a better player, deal with it. He dominated in domestic and international competitions in both Brazil and Argentina. His level of domination in Brazil was superior to anything we saw from Diego at Santos. And Tevez's performances in the Libertadores, which is obviously a huge barometer, were simply superior. You can try to spin it any way you want but those are the facts. He was seen by everyone as the best player in South America during that time with or without any personal awards. The fact that he won those personal awards just cements it.

The South American player of the year is imo much more accurate than WPOTY or any of those popularity awards they give out in Europe.

[TKORL]

Ok. That article was written 3 yrs ago though.

[TallTowerMan]

Gracias, Gaston Casas.....

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19299369&postcount=301

[Dr. Know]

4 Argentinos playing today in the Liverpool vs. Man City match.

This was a perfect match to see what Tevez brings to the table without scoring. He came on in the 60th minute and immediately changed the match for Man City. The English commentators wouldn't stop talking about him. The team regained possession and started making nice little passes and moving the ball. Tevez also helped set up the second goal with a great pass.

Zabaleta looked pretty good as well. He was attacking a lot up the right.

[msi2]

Well typical Zabaleta i would say.:p

[Dr. Know]

Milito, Perotti, and Aguero have all scored for their respective teams.

[leomessi1919]

so has cambiasso, assist from milito