4-3-3 with the USMNT

[pwip]

I commend Rongen in trying something different from what we've seen on the USMNT level. I''m not sure if it was a decision base on the his personnel or just believeing in that formation. Do wee have the talent to run out that formation on the Senior level?

http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=extratime&id=2610

[IndividualEleven]

Do wee have the talent to run out that formation on the Senior level?


Sure.


-----------------------Cooper------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Donovan-------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------Bradley--------------Feilhaber-----------
------------------------Clark-------------------------

Deuce would have to fight Donovan for that right wing forward spot.
There's a variation of the formation using an a-mid but we don't have the full service a-mid needed for to implement it.

Though I'm sure we'll have some postyers claiming LD can somehow play centrally here when he can't hack it in 5 man midfield.

[swedust]

I wrote a very long, diagnostic post on this very topic. However, the thread got buried because the next day Sunil announced Bradley as coach.

I don't know how to link to the thread. Maybe I'll go find it and bump it.

Based on how this article defines the variations, what I was recommending for the USMNT was closest to what they call a 4-3-1-2.


EDIT: I think this is the link to the 4-3-3 thread I started
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=447460

ANOTHER EDIT: By the way, thanks to the thread started for the link to the Y-A article. It was a good read. I hope the Wrongen Curse doesn't torpedo what seems like a really exciting u20 team for us.

[BED-STYPUNDIT]

Sure.


-----------------------Cooper------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Donovan-------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------Bradley--------------Feilhaber-----------
------------------------Clark-------------------------

Deuce would have to fight Donovan for that right wing forward spot.
There's a variation of the formation using an a-mid but we don't have the full service a-mid needed for to implement it.

Though I'm sure we'll have some postyers claiming LD can somehow play centrally here when he can't hack it in 5 man midfield.


Bradley, Feilharber, and Cooper in the lineup already? Stop jumping the gun again please.

The 4-3-3 would work if Beasley is consistently confident with his dribble, but Convey, Maap can be fine wingers as well.

[onefineesq]

Sure.


-----------------------Cooper------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Donovan-------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------Bradley--------------Feilhaber-----------
------------------------Clark-------------------------

Deuce would have to fight Donovan for that right wing forward spot.
There's a variation of the formation using an a-mid but we don't have the full service a-mid needed for to implement it.

Though I'm sure we'll have some postyers claiming LD can somehow play centrally here when he can't hack it in 5 man midfield. I'm sorry, but any US starting lineup that has Dempsey off the team for essentially 3 1st year league starters, is a joke.

[SteveWWJ]

I'm sorry, but any US starting lineup that has Dempsey off the team for essentially 3 1st year league starters, is a joke.
No doubt... This is a probably more realistic, if you're going to include the yanks abroad.

-----------------------Ching-------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Dempsey-------
------------------------------------------------------
-------------Convey--------------Donovan------------
----------------------Mastroeni-----------------------

[sidefootsitter]

You need a good #10 for 4-3-3 to work.

Adu is expected to be that for the U-20's.

The senior team doesn't have a good #10.

I'd be happy with an attack minded 4-4-2 Box or Y where the wide mids are not afraid to take guys off the dribble and the deep mids have ball skills.

[pwip]

I am in the thought the USMNT does not have the talent to run this formation. You can try to shoe horn Convey, Donavan and Dempsey but I don't see it. We'll see if the U20 can do it but it can turn ugly fast with the wrong people. You'll have to ride out the lurning curve but like the article says. When run properly, you can't tell what formation is being run.

[Adam Zebrowski]

the senior team who get overrun with 3 mids.....

usa still needs a dedicated d-mid type against top flight teams...

don't forget rongen is going 3 mids in panama, against a group relatively weak...

let's see if he goes 3 mids in canada, when bradley is in the mix....

[CaliManU]

His 4-3-3 was originally built around Bradley, therefore it's a moot point in terms of Bradley's return.

[kronz21]

yeah we could do it but id almost prefer the 3-4-3 if fits are talents better but if were going with the 4-3-3 than id pick
gk=howard
rb=cherundolo
cb=onyewu
cb=boca/gibbs
lb=gibbs/boca
rcm=dempsey
cm=clark
lcm=convey
rs=donovan
st=ching
ls=beasly

this would actually be a really good lineup check it out uses all are best players at this point if i missed someone just tell me

[IndividualEleven]

I'm sorry, but any US starting lineup that has Dempsey off the team for essentially 3 1st year league starters, is a joke.

Well the question was whether or not we had the personnel to run the formation. Who knows where Deuce's ceiling is compared to the others.

[IndividualEleven]

No doubt... This is a probably more realistic, if you're going to include the yanks abroad.

-----------------------Ching-------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Dempsey-------
------------------------------------------------------
-------------Convey--------------Donovan------------
----------------------Mastroeni-----------------------

Donovan and Convey as central midfielders? That's even less realistic as neither possess the physical presence to play in midfield in that formation.

[IndividualEleven]

You need a good #10 for 4-3-3 to work.

Adu is expected to be that for the U-20's.

The senior team doesn't have a good #10.

I'd be happy with an attack minded 4-4-2 Box or Y where the wide mids are not afraid to take guys off the dribble and the deep mids have ball skills.

Didn't Chelsea run 4-3-3 without a 10 last season?

[flash1316]

I'm sorry, but any US starting lineup that has Dempsey off the team for essentially 3 1st year league starters, is a joke.
If the kids have the talent to play why should we hold them back? I could care less if Feilhaber has only played like 15 first team games if he's better than our established options. And the only way anyone's going to find that out is by letting him prove it, so let him prove it. Benny's too old to play U-20. We expect him to be starting in 2010 right? How is it too early in the beginning of a four year cycle to experiment? This kind of experimentation is what's needed. To want to hold onto older more experienced players is why I feel BA's 2006 team failed. If we don't let the kids play during the cycle, then how can we have any confidence in their ability during the WC. This isn't even qualifying if there was ever a time to experiment, it's now. (IMO the only thing that should bring out conservatism at this stage is Bradley's interim status, he wants to keep his job and that would discourage experimentation.

I'm also way against trying to pigeon-hole players into positions. In the 4-3-3 IndividualEleven showed Donovan's starting in Dempsey's favored position. We can only have one Right Wing. Clint's at his best when he's playing as a winger. I think it would be detrimental to force him centrally into the midfield. That cuts down on the best parts of his game. Now we could move Donovan to the left wing and play Dempsey on the right. (That's still pigeon-holing to a degree, but I'm comfortable with any winger we have except Beasley and Convey playing both sides). There's only 11 guys who can start hopefully there will be a lot of times from now on when that means we have to leave a highly talented performing player on the subs bench b/c there's another highly talented performing player starting in the future.

The only problem I have with IndividualEleven's formation is that at this point I'd rather have Mapp or Convey (in that order) starting at left wing than Beasley. I think they deserve the chance to make it their spot right now. Like I said before if ever there was a time to give new blood a chance it's now. And roster competition is not a bad thing.

[ClarkC]

Sure.


-----------------------Cooper------------------------
--------Beasley-----------------------Donovan-------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-------------Bradley--------------Feilhaber-----------
------------------------Clark-------------------------

Deuce would have to fight Donovan for that right wing forward spot.
There's a variation of the formation using an a-mid but we don't have the full service a-mid needed for to implement it.


The reason there is a "variation" of the formation with an attacking center mid is that the formation you drew has a huge hole in the middle. Other teams will make good use of that space.

One solution is to push up an attacking center mid. The second option is to push all three mids up and the wings out, so that the open space is greatly reduced in the middle, as well as pushing up the defenders to close space behind the mids. This is the Dutch 4-3-3, with all three mids offensively skilled. The third option is the 4-3-1-2, with a #10 type as the "1".

Maybe we should develop some #10 players!

[sidefootsitter]

Didn't Chelsea run 4-3-3 without a 10 last season? They had some guy named Frank Lampard in that position. I heard he had a good season too.

[dfb547490]

Sure, the senior team COULD run a 4-3-3, but the talent we have is best suited to a 3-5-2/3-4-1-2. I don't get the obsession that people have with the 4-3-3.

[Fulham South]

You have to be very very careful when you call what Chelsea ran a 4-3-3. That is like calling what PSV runs a 4-3-3, althought PSV runs a closer-to-reality version of it than does Chelsea. In reality, it is a flex 4-5-1 - quite similar to what Fulham FC runs on occassion. This is the reason why Arjen Robben is a bit distraught at how he has been used since going to the blue f***s. The foward wingers in PSV and Chelsea's formation do not work as fowards or attackers nearly as much as they do at - say - Ajax, who basically invented the 4-3-3 "system" (hence why the Dutch call it the Ajax System). At PSV, the wingers play more foward than at Chelsea (hence why Robben was more successful in PSV's system). This is one of the reasons Chelsea plays such boring football - there wingers track back and leave Drogba (or Crespo last year) alone up top a lot. This is why Lampard scores as much as he does - the wingers play back, pulling the midfield thin and giving him room in the middle. The box would be much more crowded in the wingers played up - like they do at Ajax - or even as they did at PSV when you have DMB on one wing and Park ji-Sung on the other.

[IndividualEleven]

The reason there is a "variation" of the formation with an attacking center mid is that the formation you drew has a huge hole in the middle. Other teams will make good use of that space.

The hole in the middle would be filled by the two central mids play closer than they appear.