L' Election Présidentielle 2007 / French Presidential Election [R]

[ilv2]

Wow that's pretty strict.


Can you list a couple programs and methods that you feel are stupid?I want to know how bad they are.

lol prepare for a diatribe on the huge bureaucratic mess that is france (very true)

[Pierre-Henri]

Examples ? I could give you thousands and thousands of pages. But they are all in french, and I won't translate this gibberish.

Programs for middle-school in french make 224 pages of massive cretinism. For the two years of highschool (1), they make 136 pages. And this is for French only : programs in all other disciplines are as long, as complicated and as stupid. All these programs are nation-wide and mandatory. They're impossible to follow, but you can be fired if you don't follow them. Arbitrary ? You bet !

Here is a small example, middle-school level, in french :

Les stratégies interlocutives :

La perspective générale du discours donne une importance particulière à la dimension pragmatique du dialogue : la visée des interlocuteurs dans l’échange, le travail sur ses conditions de réussite ou d’échec, aussi bien en observation et analyse qu’en production.

Another example, middle-school level again :

L’entrecroisement

« Concevoir une progression selon un principe d’entrecroisement revient à combiner entre elles les compétences et à entrecroiser chronologiquement les apprentissages ». Le principe de combinaison ci-dessus présenté reste donc fondamental, mais des retours, des comparaisons, des reprises sont organisés, au fil d’étapes successives qui permettent d’aborder plusieurs fois un même bloc de compétences dans l’année, pour le construire et le complexifier progressivement, au fil de séquences parfois éloignées dans le temps.

Unfortunately, the small excerpts don't show the complete confusion of the hundreds of pages as a whole. I have a Phd summa cum laude from one the 100 best universities in the world (2), but I don't understand most of this lingo. And when I understand, I'm baffled by the sheer stupidity of it. This is beyond everything. These people have reached the "other side". To them, language has no meaning anymore, no meaning at all.

Here is an example of what one of these "educational experts" writes. This "expert" works at a IUFM (=school of education). The example is picked at random : I could litterally quote thousands and thousands of pages from dozains of such "experts".

Dans le régime nocturne au contraire, il s'agira d'apprivoiser le temps. Au règne héroïque de l'antithèse va correspondre celui de l'euphémisme : valorisation de l'intimité des substances, des constantes rythmiques, réconciliation avec l'histoire. Ce processus d'euphémisation revêt deux formes fondamentales suggérées par la dualité des réflexes digestifs (à tonalité coenesthésique) et des réflexes copulatifs (à tonalité kinesthésique et rythmique). Le régime nocturne se dédouble donc en nocturne synthétique (dramatique) ou mystique (antiphrastique). Les structures synthétiques visent l'harmonisation des contraires, l'accord avec l'ambiance. Elles procèdent d'une dialectique qui n'abolit pas les oppositions mais tente une valorisation des contraires dans le temps. C'est un exorcisme du temps par des procédés temporels tels que le récit.


And these people are supposed to teach to children and teenagers ! They can't write a single sentence that makes any sense but, thanks to centralisation and union power, they possess absolute control over all teachers in this country.

I know you find pedantic morons, unreadable researchers and power-thirsty ideologists everywhere on earth. In France, however, because of this bureaucratic and centralized system, they rule education from A to Z. Since they took control of the ministery, everything else is under their law. It's the domino theory : since everything is centralized, a few morons located at the key places can destroy the whole system.

--------------------------
(1) two years because french is replaced by philosophy in highschool 3rd year.
(2) Lauréat du prix de thèse 2006 de l'académie de Strasbourg. Je les enfume tous, ces tocards :D !

[Anthony]

You mean, at the time when Finkielkraut was still supposed to say relevant things ?

Just as an aside, Finkielkraut sounds like a character in a Monty Python skit.

[guignol]

Everything she says is completely meaningless, empty, void. With her, political verbalism has reached a new standard. It's amazing, and rather disquieting, to read the socialist program... "100 proposals"..."Cahiers d'espérance" ? Ohhh Lord, it's so cheesy, so vapid, so mushy that it almost makes me cry... Good thing my passport is up to date.if you're planning on going to the US P-H, you're in for a nasty surprise! just as france is 20 years behind the states in obesity, this "new standard" is nothing new, simply a pale imitation of the american model we're catching up with slowly but surely...

[Pierre-Henri]

I don't say that USA are a better country than France. All western democracies are victim of verbalism. However, I've the feeling that the USA are going up again (and even more if democrats are elected in 2008), while France is sinking.

Anyway, I'm planning to go wherever I find a job. Because our glittering and wonderful modèle social : RMI, ANPE, CAF, ASSEDIC, CMU... J'en ai soupé. Ras le bol, du chômeduland :mad: .

http://membres.lycos.fr/sexdevise/absurde/assedic.JPG

[guignol]

the grass is always greener... this is an optical effect due to angle and distance. :D

[guignol]

Examples ? I could give you thousands and thousands of pages. But they are all in french, and I won't translate this gibberish.this is indeed unqualified gibberish. But believe me, in industry you find the same thing and we still find a way around it… as do most of my kids’ teachers who do excellent work.

what i as an involved parent and FCPE member (kind of a french PTA for the rest of you) know of as the programme scolaire is a straightforward list of texts to be used, competences to be acquired and tests to pass in maths, french, sciences... and i think it's a very good thing that this is standardized. that doesn’t mean a teacher is straitjacketed into Lagarde et Michard and Lavisse, but it provides a common standard, and guarantees creationism, PC history and such are kept at arm’s length.

of course that hasn’t stopped gollnisch at lyon III. nor is it a guarantee that the teachers will be up to the task: my little girl’s teacher in CE2 last year (and unfortunately CM1 this year) couldn’t get through the programme with a gun to her head, and that didn’t stop her from wasting 10% of the school year on an exchange project with… finland!

[Pierre-Henri]

this is indeed unqualified gibberish. But believe me, in industry you find the same thing and we still find a way around it… as do most of my kids’ teachers who do excellent work.

it provides a common standard, and guarantees creationism, PC history and such are kept at arm’s length.

True, and true.

However, this gibberish is not only stupid, it is not only powerful beyond belief, it is also extremely expensive. You probably know that France is the only modern country that gives more money to secondary education than to higher education. The only country !
1) "exception culturelle" ?
2) left-wing vote-catching ?

And this money don't even go to the teachers and students. It is soaked up by the bureaucracy : rectorats, IUFM, Ministère, infinite number of commissions... The programs are not only hundreds of page of gibberish, they are hundreds of page of gibberish that cost pharaonic sums.

France is the only country on earth where higher education is under the rule of secondary education. I've seen top-notch world-class researchers working in the kind of conditions usually associated with third-world countries. I've seen complete morons, without any research achievement or background, without any other credentials than an Union card, spending outrageous budgets in their IUFM, teaching things so stupid that words can't describe them.

These people killed french universities, turning them into pitiful intellectual graveyards, where illiterate shadow-students slumber endlessly. They killed humanities as an academic discipline, turning them into some sort of mushy psycho-civic idiocy.

All of this, I can't forgive. I will never forgive.

If you're not afraid by 98 pages of dense, precise, serious study, read this :

http://www.fondapol.org/pdf/Etude_diplomation_emploi.pdf

[Anthony]

Where does Le Pen get his support from. He is considered far right because of his anti-immigrant, anti-Europe, anti-Aemrican, anti-everything not French stands, but his economic program seems more leftish. Does his support come from more working class districts that would otherwise be for the left (attracted by his extreme nationalism) or is it really impossible to say.

[Pierre-Henri]

Le Pen's program is completely incoherent. In many fields, he's proposing things that clearly contradict each others. Left, right, he mixes everything, no matter how meaningless it is. But people don't vote for him because of his program (most of his supporters know nothing about it), they vote for him because he has a big mouth, because he is xenophobic, because he offers simplistic solutions, because he knows how to speak to simple minded persons and make them feel important, and so on.

As you say, and as irrational as it sounds, his supporters come mostly from the lower working class : small employees, industry workers, unemployed and the like. Many did the big jump, directly from the communist far-left to the nationalist far-right. In fact, he gathers all the unhappy people, all the victims of the economic crisis, and tells them everything they want to hear.

The phenomenon, like all fascist-inspired policies, makes no sense at all. Le Pen is a millionnaire (much wealthier than Sarkozy for example) and yet poor people think he is "one of us". He is 78 years old, has started his career in the '50, and yet his voters think he represents something new.

In fact, most of his voters don't even care about him. They vote FN to "blow up the system", and don't go beyond that in their political thoughts.

If you add the other extremists, the communists, you can say that 30-40% of the voters share this nearly kamikaze exasperation. Economically and politically speaking, France is in a very bad shape, you know.

[from the plaines]

I was reading over the BBC and they had the list of the people and the parties they represent who are running. I didnt see this name before but who is this Frederic Nihous?

[Douai]

I was reading over the BBC and they had the list of the people and the parties they represent who are running. I didnt see this name before but who is this Frederic Nihous?


He is the presidential candidate for the Chasse, pêche, nature, traditions party (Hunt,fish,nature,traditions).

[Douai]

VIe République?

"PARIS, 18 mars (Reuters) - A cinq semaines du premier tour de la présidentielle, Ségolène Royal s'est livrée dimanche à une opération de séduction des élus du Parti socialiste, qu'elle a placés "à l'avant-garde" de la future VIe République."

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/fr/nouvelles/france/20070318-royal-6-eme-republique0.html

[Anthony]

VIe République?




After the 2002 election I was wondering if a 6th Republic was not a possibility. Looking at it from afar, it seemed to me that about 40% of the First Round presidential vote went to parties that opposed what you might term the "5th Republic consensus". Everyone was focusing on Le Pen of course, but a lot of votes went to the Greens and the far left. One wonders if the far left could ever get their act together, if they could be an electoral force. Of course, if the French far leftists are anything like the far leftists that hang around US college campuses, they are more interested in arguing with each other than winning an election. Probably because they view democracy as bourgois and so they are waiting for the revolution.

Granted, much of the first round vote is something of an "F-U" vote, but is there a serious move for a new republic? And what would that Republic look like?

Also, considering the Socialist Party's misques in the past two elections, could this be the end for them as a serious player in French politics?

And Pierre-Henri -- thanks for the explanation.

[Douai]

Official List of Presidential Candidates

François Bayrou (UDF)

José Bové (Altermondialiste)

Marie-George Buffet (PCF)

Olivier Besancenot (LCR)

Arlette Laguiller (LO)

Jean-Marie Le Pen (FN)

Frédéric Nihous (CPNT)

Ségolène Royal (PS)

Nicolas Sarkozy (UMP)

Gérard Schivardi (PT)

Philippe de Villiers (MPF)

Dominique Voynet (Verts)

Source: http://www.france24.com/france24Public/fr/nouvelles/france/20070319-Liste-officielle-12-candidats-presidentielle.html

[Douai]

Also, considering the Socialist Party's misques in the past two elections, could this be the end for them as a serious player in French politics?


I think some members of the PS are afraid of this.That fear may have helped cause the recent focus on attacks against Bayrou and his campaign.They really want to ensure a spot in the deuxième tour.

[Anthony]

Are there really a lot of Trotskeyites in France? In 2002, in the first round, Laguiller, Besancenot (who looks about 18 by the way) and Gluckstein scored over 10% together. Was this all a "screw you" vote by angry socialists or is there really that level of support?

[Pierre-Henri]

Also, considering the Socialist Party's misques in the past two elections, could this be the end for them as a serious player in French politics?


The socialists are still powerful in other areas. They hold nearly all regions, and their influence within the public workers unions is still huge (1). Even if the right wins, the left will still have plenty of arrows to shoot at it.

In fact, all powers (President, government, congress, regions, departments, municipalities, unions) are interwoven in such a way that no clear majority ever appear.

Personnaly, I doubt the left can change. The French are too fond of their welfare state, and the socialist ideals are still deeply printed in our historical DNA. Even if the right wins, the left won't change and will pursue their destructive and quixotic struggle.

The huge problem is : we can't afford our welfare state anymore. Every year, France can't pay 20% of its bills. The bare debt is roughly 1 200 billions €. If you add the public workers retirement funds and the debts from public companies (2) the number reaches 2 500 billions €. We dug a big hole and are stuck deep in it.

Funny thing : who are our creditors ? Mostly American financial funds. Our welfare state is costing a lot to us, but it brings a lot of money to the USA.

Don't tell this to socialists and left wing unions. They still believe they are fighting the evil capitalism :rolleyes: .


---------------
(1) with more than 5 millions public employees in France, these unions are real warmachines. They can block all trains (SNCF), turn the juice off (EDF), close the schools or refuse to gather taxes. Strike is some sort of national sport, here.
(2) the bank Crédit Lyonnais, EDF, SNCF, SNCM, Airbus, RATP and the like...

[Pierre-Henri]

Are there really a lot of Trotskeyites in France? In 2002, in the first round, Laguiller, Besancenot (who looks about 18 by the way) and Gluckstein scored over 10% together. Was this all a "screw you" vote by angry socialists or is there really that level of support?

Besancenot is 33.

Your question is difficult to answer, since all the various small communist factions are continuously squabbling over some trifling points of doctrine only them can understand. All of them have a small core of die-hard supporters, who aren't many but very organized and efficient. The "screw you" vote does the rest of the job.

The PCF (Parti Communiste Français/ candidate : Marie-Georges Buffet) is the historical communist party. It didn't really survived the end of Soviet Union, but remains strong locally in some industrial regions. They still have some municipalities and some congressmen, but the party is slowly dying.

The LCR (Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire / Olivier Besancenot) is mostly active among young voters. They are the Rock-n-Roll' commies, rather popular among students.

Lutte Ouvrière (Arlette Laguillier) is the worker's party. Don't know much about it.

Same thing for the Parti des travailleurs (Gérard Schivardi). Like Lutte Ouvrière it's a sectarian -and completely negligible- party.

Conféderation Paysanne (José Bové) are the die-hard environmentalists. Here again, tiny party, even if José Bové is a rather popular person in France. He is so charismatic that when you listen to him, you almost want to live in a hut in the woods, with a herd of goats for only sustenance :) .

It's hard to explain why communism is still so vivid in France. Probably because France was never truly a communist country. After WWII, the communists were powerful enough to influence the policies, but not enough to gain control of the country. This sort of in-between situation probably explains why many french still have a nostalgy for the so-called egalitarian worker's heaven : unlike eastern europeans, they never had to face the reality of it, only the speeches, dreams and illusions.

Oh, and don't forget that presidential campaigns in France are partly funded by public money. It's the reason why such small parties can be there and express their ideas at national level. This is their soapbox.

And if some French people think that USSR was a nice place to live in, or that a herd of goats is enough for everyone... well, that's democracy.

[Anthony]

Besancenot is 33.

Yea, well, we still looks about 18. If he came to the US he would get "proofed" everytime he entered a bar.

Conféderation Paysanne (José Bové) are the die-hard environmentalists. Here again, tiny party, even if José Bové is a rather popular person in France. He is so charismatic that when you listen to him, you almost want to live in a hut in the woods, with a herd of goats for only sustenance :) .

Are you sure the goats are ONLY for sustenance? I guess as it is France and not Scotland, the goats are safe for now!;)


Thanks for the rest. I find French politics fascinating.