Donovan & Hejduk

[im_spartacus]

Originally posted by Syncope
Shove it. Much to your surprise, and possibly chagrin, we are not Nazis, do not propse a limit to freedom of speech, and most shocking, have not gased anyone. And neither have our parents. While we will forever pay for the sins of our "fathers," people on this board should come to realize that there is nothing inherently evil about our heritage.

You are right the comments made against olafg were unfair and inappropriate.

Hopefully, in the future we can dispense with making poorly reasoned nationalist generalizations about people, especially posters who contribute as much to this board as olafgb does.

[olafgb]

That's nice, but there's no need that someone defends me. Offences just show lacking ability to argue; besides that Martin Fischer's roots can probably be found in Germany and considering that the 'c' is still in the name this wasn't too long ago.

To some of the real arguments:
@Martin Fischer: Donovan was a top prospect, without any doubt, but a 17 year old is not a complete player. He had the talent, but it requires lots of work to become a pro. And if he had two years without any improvement, then he wouldn't have been able to become that successful in the MLS. Otherwise you would say that MLS' level is below the one of 17 year old talented players. I don't say that BL made him the player he is today, but to claim that the time in Leverkusen just harmed him or stopped his development, is just ignorant.

For loaning a player you usually pay a decent loan sum. As long as you don't want to get rid off a player it takes more than just paying the salary. BL didn't want to get rid off LD, it was him who wanted to return. And as I said, I doubt that MLS pays the same LD would have earned at BL - and I wouldn't wonder if BL still paid part of his salary as they also did e.g. with Paulo Rink when they loaned him.

A contract with a player who hates you is worth a lot as the player isn't having control about his own future. Do you seriously want to say that the contract is worthless as he doesn't want to stay in Leverkusen? I guess we have to write the history of law anew in this case.

@Ethel: Glücksrad is aired on Kabel 1, a rather small channel. I doubt they got good ratings.

With your remarks on the LD statements you're right. Of course he is allowed to do statements on the employer, but in limits. Saying that they treated him as he never got a chance, the colleagues avoiding him, etc. is very close to this limit. As a regular employee in a company he'd probably get a warning for that. Bayer won't do that as they have no interest in terminating the contract. But I find it hard to act in favor of someone (a loan deal would be a favor to LD) who's not exactly being nice to you. He can be lucky that BL is patient as they could also get him back and put him to the tribune, which would be the same as destroying his career. LD doesn't have the power in this case.

@freisland: No, money is not the matter. BL wants Donovan back. They were very surprised about all the statements as they planned with him. Now they are thinking about a loan deal, but surely they won't sell him. If he doesn't return now, then it'll be one season later - and if BL insists on it, then LD will go there, he won't risk to be suspended until 2007.

Something different: I think LD has the wrong agent. In February in Rostock he was still saying how much he liked Germany and that he'd look forward to returning to BL - with the WC nearing suddenly he reminded all the injustice they did to him, which makes it so impossible to return. Reality is that he's trying to get his will by stating this negative things on BL which simply are not the truth. And again, personally I feel it isn't right to reward a player who's acting like him.

[Mattbro]

Originally posted by Ethel The Frog

I would go in a minute -- beer, wine, sausages, Glucksrad, castles, beautiful women, what's not to like about Germany?



Ethel the frog, apparently you haven't spent much time in Leverkusen!

What you wrote above is exactly what I was expecting before I moved to Leverkusen. Unfortunately, you are describing Bavaria. Let me give you a brief description of Leverkusen: rain, smokestacks, frigid women, smokestacks, rain and more rain. It rains approximately 400 days a year in Leverkusen.

I know exactly how Landon feels about Leverkusen. If neither your private life nor your profession has given you any joy in a given environment, then you're not likely to want to go back any time soon.

[Mattbro]

Originally posted by olafgb


@Ethel: Glücksrad is aired on Kabel 1, a rather small channel. I doubt they got good ratings.

....


Something different: I think LD has the wrong agent. In February in Rostock he was still saying how much he liked Germany and that he'd look forward to returning to BL - with the WC nearing suddenly he reminded all the injustice they did to him, which makes it so impossible to return. Reality is that he's trying to get his will by stating this negative things on BL which simply are not the truth. And again, personally I feel it isn't right to reward a player who's acting like him.

I was wondering this myself. I saw that when German TV was interviewing him - I think it was sports Sunday on ARD, right? First the positive comments about Leverkusen, now the negative ones? I'm wondering if it depends whom he's talking to. Maybe he's not so quick to tell German TV exactly what he thinks of Leverkusen. By the same token, he may not be aware how much the comments he makes while in the States are actually reverberating in Germany?

BTW, Glücksrad now has Miss Germany turning the letters. You should see this girl - I'll see if I can find and post some pictures (if only to ease some of the tension on this thread!).

[olafgb]

Maybe this is intersting you: that's a German forum also discussing the Donovan matter. This topic doesn't find too much interest, but the few posts say this:

Topic: According to newspaper articles it doesn't look too good that Landon Donovan returns. What's your opinion?

A1: what isn't looking good there? He's got contract until 2007.

A2: no transfer! He has been in Leverkusen and will return.

A3: I think he stays in the USA.

A4: someone who is shitting in his pants when he's hearing the word 'Bundesliga' doesn't have a chance to succeed here. A pity as it looked that this guy can play soccer. Maybe he'll win some self-confidence in another MLS season.

A5: I can understand Donovan as he's the star in the MLS and also treated like that. In Leverkusen he wouldn't have a guaranteed spot in the starting lineup. But his theater is in vain, contract is contract.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Mattbro


What you wrote above is exactly what I was expecting before I moved to Leverkusen. Unfortunately, you are describing Bavaria. Let me give you a brief description of Leverkusen: rain, smokestacks, frigid women, smokestacks, rain and more rain. It rains approximately 400 days a year in Leverkusen.



Matt, Leverkusen is ugly, no doubt about that. But there isn't more rain than in Bavaria and probably also in Austria. But maybe Ethel was seeing the smokestacks as towers of a castle ;). Frigid women in Leverkusen? I made other experiences, but that's matter of luck I think :).

I know that Miss Germany is turning the letters in Glücksrad. But I've got to say that I found prettier girls even in Leverkusen.

Regarding the Donovan interview I don't think that he was lying on German television. Soccer players are lousy actors - see Paul Breitner in 'Potato Fritze' - and you see what they really want to say. Donovan liked the attention he got in Rostock and he didn't indicate that something was wrong at that time. If you're seeking for a beautiful large city next to Leverkusen, you just got to drive a couple if minutes to Cologne; I really don't see your or his problem there.

[Brihodge]

Yeah, while Leverkusen is an ugly industrial city, I don't see the problem with living in Köln which is a fantastic city and only 20 min away. The weather things are more or less true though. On the playing field, I really feel Donovan has a chance at some decent time right now. With the amount of games that BL plays and their low number of Forwards (especially with the Franca injury) i think he has a chance, unless of course they'd play Kirsten ahead of him. If they did that and he complained I'd be with him, the guy was great but isn't good for more than 20 min a game now. Ok just my thoughts.

[mattgabe]

Originally posted by Brihodge
Yeah, while Leverkusen is an ugly industrial city, I don't see the problem with living in Köln which is a fantastic city and only 20 min away. The weather things are more or less true though. On the playing field, I really feel Donovan has a chance at some decent time right now. With the amount of games that BL plays and their low number of Forwards (especially with the Franca injury) i think he has a chance, unless of course they'd play Kirsten ahead of him. If they did that and he complained I'd be with him, the guy was great but isn't good for more than 20 min a game now. Ok just my thoughts.

What about a surprise double-swoop for the Americans by TSV Alemannia Aachen? ;)

[former baller]

You are the MAN Olaf! Good stuff.

[Brihodge]

Originally posted by mattgabe


What about a surprise double-swoop for the Americans by TSV Alemannia Aachen? ;)

Well I'd be all for that Aachen is going to have a heck of a time this weekend against Freiburg, and really could even use Frankie and of course Donovan. But with the fact that Aachen almost didn't come up with the money to stay in the 2nd league this year, I don't see that happening. Well I'll still be at Tivoli on Sunday regardless if any yanks are playing hoping for a good start to the fight against relegation.

[Mattbro]

Okay, I realize this is even more off topic than the Wheel of Fortune, but Olaf I took the liberty of looking up the rainfall statistics (actually it was something I'd always wondered about, and this gave me a good excuse to do it). Here are the links:

Cologne: http://de.weather.com/weather/climatology/GMXX0018

Vienna:
http://de.weather.com/weather/climatology/AUXX0025

San Jose:
http://www.weather.com/weather/climatology/monthly/USCA0993

In Cologne it rains a third more than in Vienna (not to mention it's more of a steady drizzle up in Olafland, whereas it really pisses it down sometimes in Vienna - i.e. more sunny days down here!). And it rains less than half as much in San Jose as it does in Vienna.

Bottom line: Landon should stay in San Jose, and Olaf should come down and visit me in Vienna - we'll go watch a Rapid game under glorious blue skies!

@Olaf: don't forget your sunblock.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Mattbro


Bottom line: Landon should stay in San Jose, and Olaf should come down and visit me in Vienna - we'll go watch a Rapid game under glorious blue skies!



Shocking news that we have less sunshine than San Jose. Maybe you got less rain and it's warmer in summer, but the winter in Vienna is much colder and you have more of this f***ing white stuff from heaven ;).

Watching a Rapid game... Matt, how deep did you fall?... from Bayer to Rapid... no, rather a bit more rain for me :)


As the topic once also was Frankie: he scored a goal in the last pre-season game vs a selection of minor league teams from Leverkusen (10-1)

[superdave]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Me, I get kind of nervous when Germans start advocating limits on speech.
What we have here is a sentence that is simultaneously very funny, and inappropriate.

I felt very guilty as I laughed.

[Mattbro]

Originally posted by olafgb


Watching a Rapid game... Matt, how deep did you fall?... from Bayer to Rapid... no, rather a bit more rain for me :)



Okay, normally I'm as sensitive to the "Nie deutscher Meister" crap as anyone else.

But allow me to point out that only one of the aforementioned clubs can claim to have ever won the German championship. :D

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by olafgb
That's nice, but there's no need that someone defends me. Offences just show lacking ability to argue; besides that Martin Fischer's roots can probably be found in Germany and considering that the 'c' is still in the name this wasn't too long ago.

It's was a joke. As Superdave says kind of inappropriate, less so since, as Olafgb points out I have grandparents who were born in Germany and arguably just as liable under a collective guilt theory as any of the German posters on this board. I still think that muzzling a person from expressing his views on his own life is dangerous and a little dictatorial.

Originally posted by olafgb

To some of the real arguments:
@Martin Fischer: Donovan was a top prospect, without any doubt, but a 17 year old is not a complete player. He had the talent, but it requires lots of work to become a pro. And if he had two years without any improvement, then he wouldn't have been able to become that successful in the MLS. Otherwise you would say that MLS' level is below the one of 17 year old talented players. I don't say that BL made him the player he is today, but to claim that the time in Leverkusen just harmed him or stopped his development, is just ignorant.

Using the word "ignorant" is a much bigger indicator of a lack of an argument than my little joke. What reasoning there is is not logical in my mind. Michael Owen was able to compete in the Premier League at a high level at age 17 and since Donovan is our Owen given the lower level of MLS, I don't think it is ignorant to make even the extreme argument that he was ready to be one of the best players in MLS at age 17 before he set foot on German soil. Of course, the argument that Donovan didn't improve at all with Leverkusen is hyperbole. However, I am not aware of a better indicator of his development than his performances with the Nats and -- using that standard -- the Leverkusen years were very flat years in terms of Donovan's on-field performance.

Originally posted by olafgb
For loaning a player you usually pay a decent loan sum. As long as you don't want to get rid off a player it takes more than just paying the salary. BL didn't want to get rid off LD, it was him who wanted to return. And as I said, I doubt that MLS pays the same LD would have earned at BL - and I wouldn't wonder if BL still paid part of his salary as they also did e.g. with Paulo Rink when they loaned him.

Leaving aside the fact that your argument is based on usupported speculation, even if true it does not give Bayer a moral right to LD's services. First, my understanding is that most loans do not involve fees but simply the payment of some or all salary. Second, in the case of players who never, and I mean absolutley never play for their club, I am quite certain that a loan fee is virtually non-existant.

Originally posted by olafgb
A contract with a player who hates you is worth a lot as the player isn't having control about his own future. Do you seriously want to say that the contract is worthless as he doesn't want to stay in Leverkusen? I guess we have to write the history of law anew in this case.

No thanks. I am quite aware that Leverkusen has the legal right to prevent Donovan from playing until the end of the contract. As an ex-lawyer, I am also aware that legal rights don't always function in the real world. There is no percentage in keeping a player who hates you as he will just poison the environment of the club and provide zero benefit. It's just bad business and most successful clubs don't engage in such practices.

Originally posted by olafgb
@Ethel: Glücksrad is aired on Kabel 1, a rather small channel. I doubt they got good ratings.

With your remarks on the LD statements you're right. Of course he is allowed to do statements on the employer, but in limits. Saying that they treated him as he never got a chance, the colleagues avoiding him, etc. is very close to this limit. ...

Are you arguing that (1) Donovan did get a chance? or (2) that he should be prohibited from speaking the truth? Either way, I disagree.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Michael Owen was able to compete in the Premier League at a high level at age 17 and since Donovan is our Owen given the lower level of MLS, I don't think it is ignorant to make even the extreme argument that he was ready to be one of the best players in MLS at age 17 before he set foot on German soil. Of course, the argument that Donovan didn't improve at all with Leverkusen is hyperbole. However, I am not aware of a better indicator of his development than his performances with the Nats and -- using that standard -- the Leverkusen years were very flat years in terms of Donovan's on-field performance.


You don't want to tell me that Donovan is on Owen's level?!? We had this discussion several times and I think it's rather a misbelief of LD to think he'd get playing time in a top league before becoming 20. Of course LD developed best when returning to MLS, no doubt about that and it's also being now when he for the first time has a real chance to see playing time in Bundesliga.


Leaving aside the fact that your argument is based on usupported speculation, even if true it does not give Bayer a moral right to LD's services. First, my understanding is that most loans do not involve fees but simply the payment of some or all salary. Second, in the case of players who never, and I mean absolutley never play for their club, I am quite certain that a loan fee is virtually non-existant.


What is unsupported speculation in my assumption? As ex-lawyer you'll know that a contract needs offer and acceptance (though different in common law) and in most cases this is only working with transfer fees. Might be that last time Bayer let him go for free, but now they'd like to have him back and you can't expect a free loan anymore - or in other terms: MLS might make the offer to loan him for free, but I don't see Bayer's acceptance.


I am quite aware that Leverkusen has the legal right to prevent Donovan from playing until the end of the contract. As an ex-lawyer, I am also aware that legal rights don't always function in the real world. There is no percentage in keeping a player who hates you as he will just poison the environment of the club and provide zero benefit. It's just bad business and most successful clubs don't engage in such practices.


There are many ways to keep a player quiet. I don't see why you would want to give all power to the player. That's very uncommon business in Germany. Soccer players often got a doubtful reputation in the public, especially if they aren't loyal to their employers.


Are you arguing that (1) Donovan did get a chance? or (2) that he should be prohibited from speaking the truth? Either way, I disagree. [/B]

I am arguing that (1) LD has signed a contract and according to today's situation he's employer of Bayer Leverkusen from November 1st on. I also say that LD was expecting too much back then. Today he'd get the chance to play in the first team. (2) I argue that he isn't speaking the truth - at least LD's truth looked different in Rostock and suddenly changed before and extremely after the WC. For me it's obvious that he doesn't want to lose his current status in the US and by all means tries to stay - including talking negative about BL though he knows that he's telling wrong or at least exaggerated statements.

And after all he's employee of Bayer Leverkusen. Who of you is allowed to talk negative about his employee in the public? German soccer clubs generally handle it that any player can come and complain at the GM or the coach - but if he's using the media, then he'll get a fine. Ask Pablo Thiam of Bayern Munich, ask Fredi Bobic of Borussia Dortmund - both were fined 10K these days for criticizing coach/officials of the club.

Btw, this exactly was topic in today's kicker edition; interview with Bayern coach Otmar Hitzfeld:
Q: The fines were raised as the case Pablo Thiam proves. He had to pay 10K for a critical interview in which he complained about you.
H: That's true.
Q: Is it right that players from now on have to get a permission before an interview gets printed?
H: It is better to control if players are giving interviews to papers who want to make big headlines. Otherwise it only causes trouble in the club.
Q: What does it mean precisely?
H: Interviews have to be brought to our media boss Markus Hörwick before printing.
Q: Sounds like censorship.
H: That's no censorship. We just want to protect our players and keep damage away from our club.

[Ethel The Frog]

I have never been to Leverkusen, it is true. From your description, I will not be quick to visit -- unless I have soccer tickets.

I have found Germany to be a beautiful country and I have loved the (too small amount) of time I have spent there.

Thank you for the updates on Glucksrad -- sorry that it was off topic, it just slipped into my post.

Can you believe it? The BUNDESLIGA IS ABOUT TO KICK OFF! I am so stoked. Live has been depressing with no soccer games for the last two weeks.

I am sure we will all be watching to see what happens to Leverkusen, Donovan and Hejduk!

With amazing luck, Simak will turn out to be the total head case that he is rumoured to be, and Donovan will be able to walk into a starting spot and his first Bundesliga hattrick will come before Thanksgiving.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by olafgb


You don't want to tell me that Donovan is on Owen's level?!? We had this discussion several times and I think it's rather a misbelief of LD to think he'd get playing time in a top league before becoming 20. Of course LD developed best when returning to MLS, no doubt about that and it's also being now when he for the first time has a real chance to see playing time in Bundesliga.

Once again, I do want to compare Donovan to Owen, on the U.S. scale -- though admitting that Donovan is not in Owen's class on the overall world scale. Based on his later performances, I think there is a very fair argument to be made that Donovan could have been starting and scoring goals in MLS at age 17 or 18.

Originally posted by olafgb

What is unsupported speculation in my assumption? As ex-lawyer you'll know that a contract needs offer and acceptance (though different in common law) and in most cases this is only working with transfer fees. Might be that last time Bayer let him go for free, but now they'd like to have him back and you can't expect a free loan anymore - or in other terms: MLS might make the offer to loan him for free, but I don't see Bayer's acceptance.

The unsupported speculation was yours regarding the terms of Donovan's previous loan arrangement with MLS. You don't know what the terms of the loan were and you are speculating about what they might be. My main point is that it would be unusual in football to receive a fee for a loan of a player who has never played, thereby negating your argument that Bayer has been real good to Donovan.

Originally posted by olafgb

There are many ways to keep a player quiet. I don't see why you would want to give all power to the player. That's very uncommon business in Germany. Soccer players often got a doubtful reputation in the public, especially if they aren't loyal to their employers.

I thought I conceded that Bayer could try to keep Donovan quiet, I just don't think it is right or smart.

Originally posted by olafgb

I am arguing that (1) LD has signed a contract and according to today's situation he's employer of Bayer Leverkusen from November 1st on. I also say that LD was expecting too much back then. Today he'd get the chance to play in the first team. (2) I argue that he isn't speaking the truth - at least LD's truth looked different in Rostock and suddenly changed before and extremely after the WC. For me it's obvious that he doesn't want to lose his current status in the US and by all means tries to stay - including talking negative about BL though he knows that he's telling wrong or at least exaggerated statements.

LD has proved that he can play with the best of the German attackers in the World Cup. Since Leverkusen did not play him for one single, solitary second in his first stint, it is hardly surprising he fears seeing his career stunted by not playing. He obviously believes that he was good enough to see some time in Cup competition, as a late sub in blowouts or something. Bayer's failure to do this indicates a lack of interest and belief in his abilities. And I am sure this occurred in the context of pre-signing promises by Leverkusen that Donovan would get a real shot at the first team right away. Probably everyother team in the world woudl have said that too, but I can't blame Donovan for not wanting to take a chance with his short career with a team that has already broken the faith with him.

Originally posted by olafgb


And after all he's employee of Bayer Leverkusen. Who of you is allowed to talk negative about his employee in the public? German soccer clubs generally handle it that any player can come and complain at the GM or the coach - but if he's using the media, then he'll get a fine. Ask Pablo Thiam of Bayern Munich, ask Fredi Bobic of Borussia Dortmund - both were fined 10K these days for criticizing coach/officials of the club.

Actually I am a government employee so I can talk negative about my boss, though it wouldn't be smart. And most people can talke bad about their boss as long as they are willing to be fired. That would be fine with LD and I think if a team doesn't like what a player says they should terminate his contract.

Originally posted by olafgb

Btw, this exactly was topic in today's kicker edition; interview with Bayern coach Otmar Hitzfeld:
Q: The fines were raised as the case Pablo Thiam proves. He had to pay 10K for a critical interview in which he complained about you.
H: That's true.
Q: Is it right that players from now on have to get a permission before an interview gets printed?
H: It is better to control if players are giving interviews to papers who want to make big headlines. Otherwise it only causes trouble in the club.
Q: What does it mean precisely?
H: Interviews have to be brought to our media boss Markus Hörwick before printing.
Q: Sounds like censorship.
H: That's no censorship. We just want to protect our players and keep damage away from our club.

It is censorship and, though legal, is neither smart or moral.

[Mattbro]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


The unsupported speculation was yours regarding the terms of Donovan's previous loan arrangement with MLS. You don't know what the terms of the loan were and you are speculating about what they might be. My main point is that it would be unusual in football to receive a fee for a loan of a player who has never played, thereby negating your argument that Bayer has been real good to Donovan.



I probably shouldn't get involved in this catfight, but it is not at all unusual to receive a loan fee for a player who has either rarely or never played. It happens all the time in the Bundesliga. It's a case of supply and demand, and usually a less prominent club is willing to pay a modest fee for the services of a player it feels can be of help down the stretch. Often there is an option to buy.

I think what makes this case special is that Leverkusen has always thought extremely highly of Donovan. Long before he was loaned to MLS, a coach at Bayer told me that there was no way the club was going to sell his contract, since they considered him to be one of the most talented players of his age group in the world. They let him go back to MLS a) to improve his game and b) so that he would not begin/continue to harbor ill will against the club. Under these circumstances, I could imagine Bayer waving the loan fee for LD, because they consider him to be a VERY special player, and more than just a way to make a quick "euro".

Olaf, I don't believe Landon was earning that much at Leverkusen. His contract IIRC was highly performance-related - since he never saw any first-team action, I don't believe his salary exceeded 100,000 dollars, which MLS can certainly afford to pay him. I would be very surprised if Bayer is currently paying part or all of his salary. Putting two and two together I would guess: no loan fee, but MLS pays his entire salary.

[superdave]

olaf, my opinion is that Landon is NOT basing his decision on footballing reasons. It's NOT about him getting first team action or not. It's about him being happy.

Martin...my speculation is that Bayer may have acted like a semi-scrupulous college coach here in the States. "Come to my school, you'll be a star." Then the kid gets there, and he finds there are 5 other kids who have been told they'll be starts, too. And the story he's told of his teammates freezing him out goes along here.

There are many hints from Landon that his unhappiness in Leverkusen, and his happiness in San Jose, come from the lack of ruthlessness here, relative to BL. I mean, in MLS, you only have 18 roster spots. You can't ignore players; everyone gets their shot. Guys aren't competing to make the matchday squad. Further, the rules and reality of MLS means that a club can't easily bring in a new star. Remember what happened to Frankie...he went to Bayer, spent some time getting acclimated, then was put into the starting lineup in a 4-3-3. The team went on a tremendous hot streak, coming in 2nd in the league. With Champions League football (and money) coming up, they bought replacements for their current players, Frankie among them. (I'm sure there's more to the story than this, putting some blame on Frankie, but the gist of it is on the mark.)

Here, Landon has his friends and his family. He has the respect of the coaching staff. But what I think is a key element is that his teammates are really teammates, not competitors with him or each other for gametime. That may be partly Yallop's style, in addition to the small MLS rosters. But it's a great thing to have a job you like, and workmates who are your buddies.

I give credit to Landon for understanding at age 20 how precious this is.

To put it another way, the competition for HIS OWN playing time isn't bothering Landon, IMO. He understands that if he goes to BL, he'll be on the margins of the first team. He'll get his chances, but he won't be a star for them right now. That's not bothering him. If it were, you'd think he'd be trying to get sold to a lesser club.

In my opinion, Landon likes the fact that his teammates in San Jose have great camaraderie, and I seriously doubt Leverkusen is like that. Landon is concerned about how the competition for playing time among his teammates will affect his happiness and work environment.

Just informed speculation.