Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

[Boro_lad]

ok prehaps it wasnt VERY easy. But non of the teams they payed were in and some no where near the top 10 in the world.

[Prenn]

None of the teams Germany beat had odds shorter than 65-1 at the start of the World Cup.

[Boro_lad]

thats my point. But its too late to change it. and at least they never won.

it was just someones post earlier saying that 5-1 was just a fluke and germany showed thier "true" class in the WC. when blantently they just beat weaker opposition.

[Matt Clark]

Well, it was a fluke to some extent. They have certainly not played as badly in a competive match again.

The team we put out was easily a match for their line-up and, on the night, we simply played them off the park, that much is true. But whilst it is nonsense to suggest that such a performance and the eventual outcome were entirely down to the fact that Germany played extremely poorly, it would also be unrealistic to say that it played no part whatsoever.

To call it a "fluke" is fatuous in the extreme (you can only beat what they put in front of you and you can only score goals by creating chances and hitting the target), but to define Germany's strength by that game is as unrealistic as it is to define it by their World Cup run.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
If you want to make arbitrary judgements about the suitability of one world class league as a proving ground for youngsters, as opposed to another world class league elsewhere, then you use something that pertains directly to both those leagues. You use club football, for a start. International football is a cute little sideshow with one big kablooie every now and then. Club football is the real deal and that is what, if discussions such as this really are of interest to you, you base them upon.

Why is club football the determining factor? Is Manchester United 100% English in terms of nationality of it's players? Is Bayern Munich 100% German? The only thing to me that shows the way a league develops a player is how well they perform internationally with their national team because they are 100% English, German, etc. I'll concede that some teams have players playing out of their domestic leagues, but England really wouldn't be one of those. All but Hargreaves play in the EPL, right?

Do you really know who has a tremendously strong influence on Liverpool's and Arsenal's youth academies, Frances regional youth training centers etc.? Wil Coerver, a Dutchman.

[Jawz10]

Originally posted by Prenn
Can we have a show of hands from the Americans in this thread who can actually form an opinion about English football without resorting to stereotypes? :rolleyes:

Next person to use the 'kick and rush' cliche will be ridiculed at my leisure. Stereotypes are an Americans bread and butter. . . kinda like your fish and chips. Get it? Get it!?

Anyway,

I don't think that the 'English' style of play is good for developing young players simply because it is too basic. Kick and rush is not a cliche, its an exaggeration of sorts. Sort if like calling the Italian style of play "catenaccio", kinda but not quite. Its a fast paced, running game. Totally different than what most central european and south american sides play. I'll never forget what some brasilian player said, although I forget his name, wait, actually I have forgetten what he said. But, it was to the affect of "we love the ball".

That being said the dutch style of play is elaborate and has produced tons of great players but not a great national side. . .

For me, it all comes down to the fact that England brought in a foreign coach, a Serie A coach nonetheless, to try and impose a more "continental" approach to their game. And to some extent it worked. That tells you that there is a flaw in the English way of play. But, there is a flaw in every style isn't there.

Originally posted by Matt Clark
A notable emblem of that fact is the amount of French and Italian youngsters that are now being enticed to continue/complete their education here in England.

In terms of french players, its good for their games because its the extreme opposite of what they've been brought up with. Examples being Henry, Pires, Robert, Viera. . . etc. But, for Italians its detrimental. Not least because they get overlooked for not playing in Italy. Friends used to ask me, an Italian fan, why Di Canio and Zola don't play for the national side. The only reasonable answer I could come up with was Vieri, Totti, Di Vaio, Montella, Del Piero, Chiesa, Inzaghi. . .

I think Maccarone will do what numerous other Italian youngsters have, play in England because they'll get more playing time then come running back to Italy once they get the chance to go to a Parma, or Milan, or Lazio.

How did I get on this tangent?

American players should just get into Europe, thats the main thing. College soccer will be the ruin of all of them and MLS ain't much better. Period.

[Matt Clark]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
[B]

The only thing to me that shows the way a league develops a player is how well they perform internationally with their national team because they are 100% English, German, etc.

That's ridiculous. Nationality has nothing to do with it - especially now where youngsters of any nationality are developing anywhere the market takes them. Quite apart from that, what do we judge (for instance) Owen Hargreaves' inate talent by? His stellar performances as a replacement for Steffen Effenberg during Bayern's Champions' League final win, or his cameo roles for England? Is the coaching at Manchester United bad because Ryan Giggs will never play in a major international tournament? Or to twist it, is Ryan Giggs not world class because he's Welsh? Does the Azzurri exile of Italian players outside of Serie A mean those players are bad, or is it just a quirk of the Italian mentality?

Come on. Think it through first, eh?

International football is an inadequate benchmark because it is not the highest standard at which football is played. To truly gauge a player's quality, you look to see their performances at the highest level possible.

Which is club football.

Do you really know who has a tremendously strong influence on Liverpool's and Arsenal's youth academies, Frances regional youth training centers etc.? Wil Coerver, a Dutchman.

That hilarious Adidas monkey? Yeah ... he's a real guru. :rolleyes:

[Matt Clark]

Originally posted by Jawz10

For me, it all comes down to the fact that England brought in a foreign coach, a Serie A coach nonetheless, to try and impose a more "continental" approach to their game. And to some extent it worked. That tells you that there is a flaw in the English way of play. But, there is a flaw in every style isn't there.


Well yes, that last bit is inarguable. But the remainder of the observation is rather skewed by the reality of his impact. SGE is by some margin the most "English" coach we have had in a while. Certainly Hoddle and Venables, and, in the latter stages of his reign, Robson, were far more predisposed toward what, under the ridiculous constricts of this "style of play" cliche, would count as a "non-English" approach. SGE plays a very rigid 4-4-2 and adheres faithfully to every dictat of the modern coaching manual - strong back line, lie deep, most-goals-scored-from-five-passes-or-less, quick, athletic strikers, ball winner/ball player central midfield combo, etc, etc.

Which brings us on to another reason why the notion that one world class league is a better (or worse) development environment than another is such pap. These days, coaching innovation is a global business (in fact, see Wanderer's Adidas monkey for an example) and the thought and innovation occurs amongst a globalised, international group of elite managers. The manner in which football is coached (as opposed to managed!) is getting more and more universal. Indeed, one of the explicit aims of the revolution in our coaching infrastructure and mentality was to make the English set-up mirror that in the leading leagues of Europe as closely as possible. So again, the idea that England is a better or worse environment than, say, Italy or Spain is a nonsense. It just doesn't stand up.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by Matt Clark


That's ridiculous. Nationality has nothing to do with it - especially now where youngsters of any nationality are developing anywhere the market takes them. Quite apart from that, what do we judge (for instance) Owen Hargreaves' inate talent by? His stellar performances as a replacement for Steffen Effenberg during Bayern's Champions' League final win, or his cameo roles for England? Is the coaching at Manchester United bad because Ryan Giggs will never play in a major international tournament? Or to twist it, is Ryan Giggs not world class because he's Welsh? Does the Azzurri exile of Italian players outside of Serie A mean those players are bad, or is it just a quirk of the Italian mentality?

:


Interesting questions....
You ask "Is the coaching at Man utd bad because Giggs will never play in a major international tournament??"

I would say "no" the coaching is not a bad standard at man utd .They have a long track record of producing good players .
but if you ask The wanderer then you will get an answer a long the lines of ........" gee ,man utd teach their players to run around like headless chickens and how to play kick and rush ,blah ,blah ,blah..."

That is the level of intelligence we are dealing with here .Just take a look at this thread from the very beginning and you'll see what im saying.
This is a man who branded man utd a "kick and rush" outfit on the yanks abroad forum.
Even cactus[14dt] is sharp compared to this mug.LOL

[Matt Clark]

Did he? LOL!! :D

It does fascinate me, the way in which blatantly groundless perceptions like that manage to hang around for so long amongst people on this board. It’s like it’s a hobby or something. Anything beats taking the time to get an update, it would seem.

[BrianCappellieri]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
LOL

[Boro_lad]

how can anyone really catorogise(sp?) english football as kick and run. Prehaps in the days of vinnie jones etc... but now all you have to do is look at some of arsenals play last year. And most of the top 10 last year. Kick and run is not the style. pass and move with alot of pace is the only way to compete at the moment in the premiership.All the top teams have pace. This is why boro struggled last year as we had absolutly no pace. But now we have bought in quick players who have flare. No more just clearing our lines. We will play football as have the top 11 last year. The reasons why teams of the past had to play long ball was because of a lack of pace in midfield. But all has changed....

Boro for europe!

[bigfoot984]

why did i keep reading the same stuff over and over as i went through this thread? i mean, seriously, everyone just kept repeating their arguments over and over, not taking into account what the other one said just babbling on and on about how the other one was so wrong and they are so right. and yet each was insulting the others intellingence......interesting. it was like seeing two kids trying to outshout each other.......sad, sad, sad. the "Yanks" are stupid for downplaying the EPL (which is considered by many to be the best league in the world) and the "Brits" are stupid for downplaying the talent level of young Americans (which is undeniably on the rise....rising at one of the fastest rates in the world). i mean, come one, the revolutionary war has been done for over 200 years now, hahaha.

[Boro_lad]

Originally posted by bigfoot984
why did i keep reading the same stuff over and over as i went through this thread? i mean, seriously, everyone just kept repeating their arguments over and over, not taking into account what the other one said just babbling on and on about how the other one was so wrong and they are so right. and yet each was insulting the others intellingence......interesting. it was like seeing two kids trying to outshout each other.......sad, sad, sad. the "Yanks" are stupid for downplaying the EPL (which is considered by many to be the best league in the world) and the "Brits" are stupid for downplaying the talent level of young Americans (which is undeniably on the rise....rising at one of the fastest rates in the world). i mean, come one, the revolutionary war has been done for over 200 years now, hahaha.

ok.....

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by Matt Clark


That's ridiculous. Nationality has nothing to do with it - especially now where youngsters of any nationality are developing anywhere the market takes them. Quite apart from that, what do we judge (for instance) Owen Hargreaves' inate talent by? His stellar performances as a replacement for Steffen Effenberg during Bayern's Champions' League final win, or his cameo roles for England? Is the coaching at Manchester United bad because Ryan Giggs will never play in a major international tournament? Or to twist it, is Ryan Giggs not world class because he's Welsh? Does the Azzurri exile of Italian players outside of Serie A mean those players are bad, or is it just a quirk of the Italian mentality?

Come on. Think it through first, eh?

International football is an inadequate benchmark because it is not the highest standard at which football is played. To truly gauge a player's quality, you look to see their performances at the highest level possible.

Which is club football.



That hilarious Adidas monkey? Yeah ... he's a real guru. :rolleyes:

I couldn't disagree more. I'm talking about a nation, and one player playing in the Bundesliga hardly changes the overall generalization. Why don't you think it through? Is Man Utd 100% English? No it isn't. Is the English national team (with the exception of the Canadian born Hargreavesl)? OK, 96% English, developed in the EPL. Yes it is. So which observation holds more water for you? One where the subjects are judged when they are playing with players developed in other nations(van Nistelroij etc.) or one
where the players are developed in the same nation(i.e., the national team) and play together on the same team? OK, we'll agree to disagree.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk



That is the level of intelligence we are dealing with here .Just take a look at this thread from the very beginning and you'll see what im saying.
This is a man who branded man utd a "kick and rush" outfit on the yanks abroad forum.
Even cactus[14dt] is sharp compared to this mug.LOL

Sarcasm lost on the English on the Yanks abroad forum. That's a funny one. Of course we're dealing with a person whose level of intelligence can't make simple connections from data so I'd say you're pretty low in the pecking order in England yourself. I mean, really, Van Gaal won the European Club Championship with Ajax, of course that automatically means that he's a great national team coach, right? Of course I had to remind your dumb arse about your own lad Keegan who is a pretty good club level coach who couldn't cut it at the international level.

Yeah, and then the comments about the Adidas monkey. Who cares what he looks like, he's endorsed by AC Milan, the French football federation(which has a more recent WC than England), Brazilian WC '94 coach Perreira, the EPL's own [i]French coached[i/] Liverpool and Arsenal, even ManUre has used Coerver's training philosophy along with countless others. So yeah your comments about that pretty much revealed your own IQ level.

[Boro_lad]

unless you havent noticed this is a forum. we read. Its pretty hard to tell if someone is being sarcastic as u cant hear thier voice.

Also sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....(i read that somewhere i think)

[M]

Originally posted by The Wanderer

Of course I had to remind your dumb arse about your own lad Keegan who is a pretty good club level coach who couldn't cut it at the international level.


Keegan a pretty good club level coach? You're a laugh a minute. I'll just love it when you respond to this...

[Matt Clark]

Originally posted by The Wanderer


I couldn't disagree more. I'm talking about a nation, and one player playing in the Bundesliga hardly changes the overall generalization. Why don't you think it through? Is Man Utd 100% English? No it isn't. Is the English national team (with the exception of the Canadian born Hargreavesl)? OK, 96% English, developed in the EPL. Yes it is. So which observation holds more water for you? One where the subjects are judged when they are playing with players developed in other nations(van Nistelroij etc.) or one
where the players are developed in the same nation(i.e., the national team) and play together on the same team? OK, we'll agree to disagree.

Well yes, we will probably have to agree to disagree, but only because we are coming at this from different angles - who gives a toss about nations or international football when judging the ability of a player to compete at the highest possible level?

I'm looking at the highest standard of play which English-developed players are comfortable with and saying that should be the judge of whether the development of English talent is being handled well. You're asking to see their passports.

So - for one, the highest level of football at which English players are acquitting themselves well is the Champions' League, which is several notches above any form of international football in terms of standards.

Two, that then clearly indicates that the English youth set-up and coaching approach is good enough for Champions League footballers and thus, bloody good by any rational, objective measure. The fact that the performances of a team of players who spend, at best, four weeks a year together, do not match those of their club sides is an utter irrelevance. Club football is the ultimate standard.

So, to tie it all back in with the original premise, you can opine that a system that produces players for some of the top teams in the Champions League is not good enough for the youngsters of the US, but that there is then where we do indeed have to part company and agree to disagree.

Because it's nonsense.

As to Coerver, I suggest you read up about him mate. (clue: the "monkey" reference had nothing to do with his physical appearance).

[sinner78]

Originally posted by The Wanderer


Sarcasm lost on the English on the Yanks abroad forum. That's a funny one. Of course we're dealing with a person whose level of intelligence can't make simple connections from data so I'd say you're pretty low in the pecking order in England yourself. I mean, really, Van Gaal won the European Club Championship with Ajax, of course that automatically means that he's a great national team coach, right? Of course I had to remind your dumb arse about your own lad Keegan who is a pretty good club level coach who couldn't cut it at the international level.

Yeah, and then the comments about the Adidas monkey. Who cares what he looks like, he's endorsed by AC Milan, the French football federation(which has a more recent WC than England), Brazilian WC '94 coach Perreira, the EPL's own [i]French coached[i/] Liverpool and Arsenal, even ManUre has used Coerver's training philosophy along with countless others. So yeah your comments about that pretty much revealed your own IQ level.


You still here??
I suggest you re-read the thread and try to digest the information thats been posted.
You still haven't got a clue.
I wont be suprised if you post a thread titled "Why yanks shouldn't got to the premiership part 3" in about 2 months time.
Even the other yanks on the thread are laughing at you.
Throw in the towel before it gets beyond a joke.