Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

[oakydoaks]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


None of the italian national team plays abroad.
.

sinner, I have no desire to start another flame war and I'm not even a yank.
I just want to point out that your above statement is wrong as Francesco Coco plays in La Liga.

[Foxhound]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk





Dont waste my time with your drivel.
You aint got a clue .
This debate is pointless because no one is really interested in signing young yanks .
Who cares?? send them to albania for all I care.

Ronald, dont't get me wrong mate, I agree with a lot of things you say and you put many ignorant Brit bashers to shame but do you think it's wise to put something like this ? Tink about it, this is basically an American site, so you must have some interest or you wouldnt be here. Show a bit of respect and you'll get some in return

[Boro_lad]

well prehaps if many of the ignorant americans would stop being stupid saying england has a poor youth development system. When blantetnly it is one of the best. I very much doubt southgate would have said that anyway because he never usually talks to press or makes negative comments. Also American posters should stop commenting on things which they have very little first hand knowledge about. Not having a dig but it is just annoying reading some posts which show a great lack of knowledge.

Ps how can training in the best training facilitys with top coaches be a bad thing???

[Alex_1]

Someone needs to explain their definition of "international competition". I assume because it is an AMerican board that what's being assumed is National sides, not international club competitions like champions league, UEFA and etc., correct? If that is the case, even the comment that it doesn't prep you well for "international competition" is taken out of context. Really, how big is the international game then?

[kerpow]

Originally posted by Boro_lad
I very much doubt southgate would have said that anyway because he never usually talks to press or makes negative comments.

You mean when he's not a columnist for The Evening Standard ;)



Anyway, I think an issue that hasn't been brought up yet is what peoples perception of youth is. In England a youth player is generally under 19. It is not uncommon to break into the first team by this age. To an American this might be older as alot of soccer players play at college.
Generally I think it's best for players to stay in their own league until they made a mark for themselves. It puts a huge amount of pressure on a young lad to move to another country to play football. It's not like they have a family of their own and because they are foreign extra attention is added.

Question. Is the FA's school of Excellence limited to British players or can anyone join it? Similarly with the French setup in Clairefontaine?

[Boro_lad]

Originally posted by kerpow


You mean when he's not a columnist for The Evening Standard ;)




They dont write them thier selfs. someone else writes for them.

[kerpow]

Originally posted by Boro_lad


They dont write them thier selfs. someone else writes for them.

Well yes, they voice their opinions and a junior hack corrects all the spelling mistakes ;)

[The Wanderer]

Nigeria won the gold medal at the Olympics and Cameroon did too, so I disagree that youth success always translates into success at the senior international 'national team'(for you Alex !:) ) level.

When the English do something or show me something other than their current brand of football at the senior international 'national team' level, then sure I'll agree. But they got played off the pitch by a 10 men Brazilian team because they can't play in hot conditions. It sure wasn't your keeper's fault that you couldn't generate any scoring opportunities with a man advantage. And why can't they play very well in a slow tempo match? I don't know, you tell me. I'll go to my grave believing that playing in the fast tempo premiership isn't going to do much for you when you have to play slow tempo matches at the senior international 'national team' level. And when England makes the semis of the WC then I'll start to believe that they have first rate youth academies and tactically aware players. Until then you can say that I'll live in denial and I'll say with until the bitter end that you live in denial. I've got players and ex-coaches to back up my reasoning, who and what do you have to back up your reasoning? Some youth international competitions?

P.S. Do you really think that a quality 'international' national team coach couldn't have qualified Holland to the WC with all those stars? Sure Holland hasn't won the WC, but when was the last time England made the semis? And Holland? Oh yeah '98 where they gave Brazil everything they could handle and more barely losing. Holland was even in the Euro 200 semis, where was England? Do you really think they couldn't have qualified out of your WC qualifying group? You rail on Germany but then again they went on to the finals and have won the WC and European championships much more recently than England has. Sure they were lucky but now you're going to tell me that luck isn't involved in winning/advancing far in the WC? Well I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you also.

BTW, I have never said that Premiereship clubs were lining up to buy Yank players. Never, ever, ever. And if the Premiership was the only choice besides MLS, only a fool would turn that down.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
Nigeria won the gold medal at the Olympics and Cameroon did too, so I disagree that youth success always translates into success at the senior international 'national team'(for you Alex !:) ) level.

Cameroon have won 2 straight African nations cups.
Isn't that classed as international success?.lol
Again your lack of knowledge shines through.


When the English do something or show me something other than their current brand of football at the senior international 'national team' level, then sure I'll agree. But they got played off the pitch by a 10 men Brazilian team because they can't play in hot conditions. It sure wasn't your keeper's fault that you couldn't generate any scoring opportunities with a man advantage


At the world cup we played Sven goran Erikssons tactics .He laid down the tactics and the players tried to implement them .We played a completely different style of football under the management of previous coaches such as Hoddle and venables.

I thought we did alright at WC 2002 considering everyone expected us to get knocked out in round one from the group of death .Playing Svens defensive ,counter-attacking game worked alright against Argentina and denmark .We had a poor second half against brazil and we went out.
Reaching the quarter finals with a young and inexperienced team playing top notch opponents in every game aint a bad effort IMHO .
We did better than the likes of Italy ,France ,etc..
This team of young players will only get better.



And why can't they play very well in a slow tempo match? I don't know, you tell me. I'll go to my grave believing that playing in the fast tempo premiership isn't going to do much for you when you have to play slow tempo matches at the senior international 'national team' level.



Who says we cant play at a slow tempo? you? lol
The game agianst denmark (for example) was played at snails pace and we totally controlled it.
The game in Munich when we beat Germany wasn't a particularly quick game either and we all know the score dont we??
All the games at the world cup weren't played at a high pace because of the heat and humidity.It would have been impossible to play at a high tempo for the entire game and thats exactly what happened .Any suggestion that we cant play at a different tempo is a myth as some teams have discovered to their cost.



And when England makes the semis of the WC then I'll start to believe that they have first rate youth academies and tactically aware players. Until then you can say that I'll live in denial and I'll say with until the bitter end that you live in denial. I've got players and ex-coaches to back up my reasoning, who and what do you have to back up your reasoning? Some youth international competitions?


Listen fool.
The new coaching blueprint was only implemented in the last few years .We are only just started to see the benefits of this coaching .Players like Rio ferdinand ,Joe cole ,Kieron Dyer ,Jermaine Jenas ,Jermaine defoe ,etc,etc.....These players are steadily climbing through the ranks of clubs.
I dont think we'll see the true outcome of the new coaching for another 5 -10 years .The current youth setup is producing results and anyone who can see our youth sides will know that .
Some of the stuff they play is brilliant .I know this because I've watched them regularly .Quite afew clubs have introduced the brazilian teaching method called "football de salea"(spelling) .A method which involves building technique by playing 5 a side with a smaller sized football.
When you see these kids play you'd be stunned at their technique .Our current international side has the average age of 22 (not including the keeper seaman) .We are learning our lessons about youth football and it will take time to get better .
We aint quite up their with some of the best youth coaching schemes but we're getting there.

Im not living in denial because I know what im talking about ,where as you dont have a clue what you're talking about .You have proved that you know very little about our football .

We have tried to implement a system that is similar to the system France implemented in the 1980's .
A long term overhaul of youth coaching designed to give the best youth coaching through youth academies .It took the french between 10 - 15 years to see the results and reap the rewards.
Hopefully we will see the same thing if the plan works as is it is intended to.The main problem for us is the lack of opportunities for youngsters at some clubs .Some teams have far too many overseas players in their ranks.



P.S. Do you really think that a quality 'international' national team coach couldn't have qualified Holland to the WC with all those stars? Sure Holland hasn't won the WC, but when was the last time England made the semis? And Holland? Oh yeah '98 where they gave Brazil everything they could handle and more barely losing. Holland was even in the Euro 200 semis, where was England? Do you really think they couldn't have qualified out of your WC qualifying group?


Louis Van gaal was coach of Holland when they failed to quailfy .Are you saying a man who coached Ajax to the european cup aint quality??
He is a good coach but this time he failed .
Again you make a fool of yourself .Please retire before you go down as the biggest clown in the history of this site.
Holland are a decent team and they will be back.end of story.

Germany also aint a bad side despite us teaching them a lesson in qualifying.




BTW, I have never said that Premiereship clubs were lining up to buy Yank players. Never, ever, ever. And if the Premiership was the only choice besides MLS, only a fool would turn that down.

Yeah thats right.
We're not lining up any yank players ,so your thread designed to warn yanks not to move here is a waste of time and effort .
But if a yank ever did come here it wouldn't do him any harm if he ends up at the right club.
But at the end of the day ,who really cares if yanks come here??
answer== not me

lol

[Boro_lad]

Nice post sinner. Tottally agree with what you are saying.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Cameroon have won 2 straight African nations cups.Isn't that classed as international success?.lol
Again your lack of knowledge shines through.

I don't give a rat's arse about African Nation's cups, The Gold Cup or the European Championships or even Copa America. I'm talking about the WC finals, and while those other tourneys are nice to have on your c.v., the one that everyone pays attention to is the World Cup finals dumbarse.





Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Who says we cant play at a slow tempo? you? lol
The game agianst denmark (for example) was played at snails pace and we totally controlled it..

Denmark is no Brazil.

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
All the games at the world cup weren't played at a high pace because of the heat and humidity.It would have been impossible to play at a high tempo for the entire game and thats exactly what happened ...

Yep. And EPL games are played at a high pace. Think there might be a connection? No, I wouldn't count on an ignorant piece of trash like you to make that connection.

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Any suggestion that we cant play at a different tempo is a myth as some teams have discovered to their cost...

Like Argentina, right? Oh yeah, you played them indoors. Never let the facts get in your way, ya know.


Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
You have proved that you know very little about our football ....

So what the final product is on display every three to four years.

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Louis Van gaal was coach of Holland when they failed to quailfy .Are you saying a man who coached Ajax to the european cup aint quality??
He is a good coach but this time he failed .
Again you make a fool of yourself .Please retire before you go down as the biggest clown in the history of this site.
Holland are a decent team and they will be back.end of story.....


Since when does professional club success always translate to the international level? Need I remind you of your own Keegan? Now who's the clown and fool jackarse? Hint--look in the mirror.

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk

Yeah thats right.
We're not lining up any yank players ,so your thread designed to warn yanks not to move here is a waste of time and effort .
But if a yank ever did come here it wouldn't do him any harm if he ends up at the right club.
But at the end of the day ,who really cares if yanks come here??
answer== not me

lol

It suits us just fine. The Americans who wannabe English and the Yank youth players who worship the EPL need to be informed that the quality in England isn't as great as it's made out to be. In fact at this point it gets a pretty mediocre rating at the international level.

[Alex_1]

Wanderer, I remember we used to talk about development with the US players at least a year or so ago. I do think that the EPL and English football has a great deal to offer American players for the US national team and in club football. But in many ways I guess it's starting to depend on the direction that the players want to take, with the international game dwindling.

There are so many different ways to analyze why most English players are in England and etc. and why other players avoid England that's it gets more grey than it already is. Aussies have a strong tie to England I believe, and you see many Aussies in Premiership football. Language, systems, etc. I can only imagine that it would be the same for many American footballers... but the AMerican players will in the long run have better options in the long run.

I'll stop before I start rambling further.

[Matt Clark]

The World Cup is a preposterous standard against which to evaluate footballing prowess. The European Championships, the Champions' League and half a dozen national leagues around the world all have a higher average standard of play than the World Cup.

The World Cup is a fun show and there's some great stuff that goes on there, but let's not get all wanky about this, shall we?

As to Yanks in the Premiership - they'll take what they can get, let's face it. Scotland, Holland, whatever.

[NNCRed]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
The World Cup is a preposterous standard against which to evaluate footballing prowess. The European Championships, the Champions' League and half a dozen national leagues around the world all have a higher average standard of play than the World Cup.

I agree with this, for the most part. The World Cup can showcase a player or a player can get discovered there, but it doesn't show how well the player can perform over a 9 month span. Does he stay fit? What about injuries? etc., etc. The World Cup is a venue where players can make a name for themselves in order to move to a bigger club or a better league. But success is not always garuanteed, just look at Oleg Salenko.

But, I think that the European Championships is in the same boat as the World Cup. It can showcase a player, but it doesn't show what a player does in the long term. But I do agree that it does have a higher standard top to bottom than the World Cup (no teams like Saudi, China, etc.). An example of player getting noticed or showcased in a European Championships and then showing his long term capabilities is Poborsky.

[Matt Clark]

All that is true, but more fundamentally than that, it's the notion that a national team competition, given the restrictions in personnel and time together that implies, can be thought of as the ultimate standard in world football. It's nonsense. The World Cup is the BIGGEST thing in football, it is in many ways also the best, but the standard of play is manifestly NOT one of those ways.

If you want to make arbitrary judgements about the suitability of one world class league as a proving ground for youngsters, as opposed to another world class league elsewhere, then you use something that pertains directly to both those leagues. You use club football, for a start. International football is a cute little sideshow with one big kablooie every now and then. Club football is the real deal and that is what, if discussions such as this really are of interest to you, you base them upon.

[prk166]

Reaching the quarter finals with a young and inexperienced team playing top notch opponents in every game aint a bad effort IMHO .


Young and inexperienced? Maybe if you compare all the other players to Seaman!

The game in Munich when we beat Germany wasn't a particularly quick game either and we all know the score dont we??


Fluke.
Fluke.
Fluke.
England caught a mediocre German squad (btw which advanced much farther in the WC than England!) having a crap day.


Listen fool.
The new coaching blueprint was only implemented in the last few years .We are only just started to see the benefits of this coaching .Players like Rio ferdinand ,Joe cole ,Kieron Dyer ,Jermaine Jenas ,Jermaine defoe ,etc,etc.....These players are steadily climbing through the ranks of clubs.


Ahhh, yes, the age old argument where the proof hinges on players that are only just begining to show their potential. We'll have to wait and see, yes. But until then, it would be nice to find something more concrete to turn to.


Our current international side has the average age of 22 (not including the keeper seaman).


THis is a complete lie. This simply is not the case. Who on the Engalnd squad was under 22? Vassel wasn't. Neither were Martyn, Southgate, Keown,
Wes Brown, Heskey, Owen, Ferdinand and everyone else. Wayne Bridge just turned 22, hardly one to be making up for the likes of Keown or Martyn + company. Only Ashley Cole, Hargreaves were under 22. That simply doesn't allow for the average age to be 22. Were you refering to the U21, maybe?


Im not living in denial because I know what im talking about ,where as you dont have a clue what you're talking about .

Welcome to the club, mate.


We have tried to implement a system that is similar to the system France implemented in the 1980's .

Ahhh, yes, the import-mass-amounts-of-talent-from-ex-colonies method. Can't knock it, it worked!



The main problem for us is the lack of opportunities for youngsters at some clubs .Some teams have far too many overseas players in their ranks.

Or the young players just don't have enough talent + skills to be more desirabel than the overseas talent. It's a two-edged sword.



Yeah thats right.
We're not lining up any yank players ,so your thread designed to warn yanks not to move here is a waste of time and effort .


England is lining up any talent from anywhere. The clubs there have some serious issues to come to terms with. And if the locals don't stop kicking and screaming over their local teams, we could see things get even tougher for the top flight clubs. And that my friend is what will hurt the english internationals the most. THey need a healthy top flight league in which to hone their skills against the best players in the world.

[Matt Clark]

Young and inexperienced? Maybe if you compare all the other players to Seaman!

We fielded Dyer, Sinclair, Cole, Cole, Bridge, Hargreaves and Butt in our World Cup teams. The "young" may not always apply, but the inexperienced does. How many caps do that lot have, all put together? If you consider that arguable, then you are wrong.


We'll have to wait and see, yes. But until then, it would be nice to find something more concrete to turn to.

In what context? The topic of this thread is whether or not the Premiership is a good proving ground for young players. Given the inherant weakness of the World Cup as a standard AND the quality of young English players, I would say that we have a pretty strong case to make for the notion that English youth development is good and getting better.

Who on the Engalnd squad was under 22? Vassel wasn't. Neither were Martyn, Southgate, Keown,
Wes Brown, Heskey, Owen, Ferdinand and everyone else. Wayne Bridge just turned 22, hardly one to be making up for the likes of Keown or Martyn + company. Only Ashley Cole, Hargreaves were under 22. That simply doesn't allow for the average age to be 22.

The average age was actually nearer 24 but it was still, by some margin, the youngest squad at the World Cup AND the youngest England squad ever dispatched to a major tournament. So, semantics aside, the point remains valid.

Ahhh, yes, the import-mass-amounts-of-talent-from-ex-colonies method. Can't knock it, it worked!

Well, Owen Hargreaves aside, that is just silly, now isn't it? Hardly "take me seriously" material.

What SRM is referring to is the changes, instigated by French football in the late 80's unbder the auspices of Gerard Houllier, Patrice Bergues, Alain Giresse and others, of the French Football Academy, headquartered in Fountainblue and chartered across all of France's professional football structure. In the mid-Nineties, we blatantly copied the idea, doing away with the relics of schools football and a single, central entity at Lilleshall within which to school our potential players of the future. SRM's further point is that the fruits of that labour will, as was the case in France, not manifest themselves until a good 15 years of concerted effort have been put in. In other words, for all the encouragement we should derive from our current crop, the ultimate aim is to produce even better. But the current crop do indicate massive progress and bode well for our chances of achieving that ultimate aim. So, to again return to the topic of the thread, youngsters of any natioon should be well served by an education in this environment.

A notable emblem of that fact is the amount of French and Italian youngsters that are now being enticed to continue/complete their education here in England.

Or the young players just don't have enough talent + skills to be more desirabel than the overseas talent. It's a two-edged sword.

Not really. The economics of the system mean that a young English player represents a high investment on the part of the developing club. So they price accordingly. To the buying club, the established foreign pro is a cheaper, less risky alternative. Again, look to France - and indeed your own facetious observation about the import of foreign talent - for a precedent. The reason half of Africa plays in France is because fully matured players from Senegal and elsewhere are cheaper than young French players.

THey need a healthy top flight league in which to hone their skills against the best players in the world.

Which we have. What rationale can you offer to suggest that the EPL is not a "healthy" league, be that in terms of young potential, or level of competition, level of play or anything else you care to mention.

(this is where your pudding gets it's proof - how accurate and free from lame cliche IS your view of English football ... ?)

[kerpow]

Why do so many people bleat on about Owen Hargreaves. He could have played for Canada, Germany, Wales or England and HE CHOSE England. We don't go out to him cap in hand it was his decision.

The same can be said about most players: that Brazilain lad who played for Japan, Radzinski for Canada, various African players playing for France or any other European nation in which they live in or have parents from there.

The only case of "neutralisation" ie. when a player becomes a citizen without any ties with the country just to play sport is that lad Olisadebe who the Polish quickly grabbed and has recently moved to Birmingham.

[Boro_lad]

Germany only got to the final because of thier VERY easy run up to it. Ireland, Camaronn, Sudi arabia, Paraguay, USA, South korea. Non of these teams were in the top 10 in the world. Its was possible the easiest route to the final in world cup history....

This thread is a bollocks thread in which americans shout thier mouths about stuff they have no/little knowledge about. How can an american over an englishman tell us how OUR youth development is going. Its stupid. Middlesbrough have the best training facilities in the world (rockcliff park) along with world class coaches (steve mclaren) Please tell me. How is that Possibly a bad thing for a develping player?. Also that crap about the tempo of the game compared to the international stage. If a player cant adapt to different styles then he is not a good player.

This thread should die now as no sensible comments have come from it. Just "experts" trying to make themselves look knowledgable when thier knowledge is very much lacking.....

[Prenn]

Originally posted by Boro_lad
Germany only got to the final because of thier VERY easy run up to it. Ireland, Camaronn, Sudi arabia, Paraguay, USA, South korea. Non of these teams were in the top 10 in the world. Its was possible the easiest route to the final in world cup history....



Well I wouldn't say very easy. The US, Cameroon and Ireland provided Germany some problems and they are decent teams.


Having said that I'd have taken Germany's run over ours any day...