Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

[kpaulson]

Originally posted by Prenn
Can we have a show of hands from the Americans in this thread who can actually form an opinion about English football without resorting to stereotypes? :rolleyes:

Next person to use the 'kick and rush' cliche will be ridiculed at my leisure. Sure, it's a cliche and a gross generalization. But how would you describe it?

Please don't simply resort to other cliches about how there aren't "styles" anymore. Obviously it's a generalization-- not something that holds true for every single team-- it just needs to be relatively more true for English teams than other teams.

And when you look at it on that level, and accept that, yeah, while some English teams play a tighter passing game and dribble more, overall, the EPL IS different from other leagues. Does anyone honestly disagree? For alot of English supporters, these differences are even a source of pride (the physicality, the speed, etc).

I understand y'all being tired of being labeled "boot n scoot" footballers because English football has changed so much from the longball style. I'm sure you're tired of the label because so many people see it as a synonym for "no skill" (which it isn't in this day and age: the dead-on accurate long crosses from Becks have almost no relation to punt and hope school of football, given how targeted they are).

OK, fine. But accept that English football does still look different and that some people won't ever
prefer that style. Alot of it will be just a matter of taste, but, in addition to upsides for this difference, there might also be downsides, one of which might have to do with developing skills not used as often as other leagues.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by HartwickFan




How many of the players on those teams were playing in the English top flight when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in the English top flight?

Well how do i say this?? Frances 98 world cup winners and euro 2000 winners were mostly based in England .Henry ,petit ,viera ,etc....
Is that a shock to you??

As for the other teams.
We only stated importing foriegners into the league in big numbers post world cup 94.
Brazil won WC 2002 and but we have never really bought players from outsde of the EC becasue of work permit issues.Not ag reat deal of brazilians have ever played in our league.
thats more to do with the strict rules than footbal reasons.

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I dont know ,why dont you work it out for yourself??
Brazils 2002 squad were based all over the place.

[benine]

Originally posted by Alex_1



Anyway, I had to pipe in that some are commenting on Vassell with England and clearly have no idea what they're on about regarding him, his role, England's system and even the system Vassell plays at Villa. :rolleyes: He's a terrific player and will only get better... I don't see where some folks are comin' off saying that he "sucked"... it only shows a lack of knowledge and inability to analyze England's WC matches and his role offsetting Owen + the strategies that were formed against the England strikers.



I'm going on international emprical evidence here and why there is such a falling off of young talent when you get past the top tier clubs, that's all. Vassell is young and has a ton of promise, given.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


Well how do i say this?? Frances 98 world cup winners and euro 2000 winners were mostly based in England .Henry ,petit ,viera ,etc....
Is that a shock to you??

As for the other teams.
We only stated importing foriegners into the league in big numbers post world cup 94.
Brazil won WC 2002 and but we have never really bought players from outsde of the EC becasue of work permit issues.Not ag reat deal of brazilians have ever played in our league.
thats more to do with the strict rules than footbal reasons.

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?



I dont know ,why dont you work it out for yourself??
Brazils 2002 squad were based all over the place. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that pretty much summarizes football today. What some fans have to understand is that the international game is really secondary to the club game... IMO at least. It's a business. Brasil's squad was in all of the major leagues... (except England but look now... Kleberson, Gilberto Silva, and Juninho returned). But players hailed from Brasil, Italy, Spain, Germany... They aren't just there for the "culture and development". Those players are there for the huge wage, incentives, status it brings and because they're the best for the job - i.e., they help the club attain the result that they need, whether it be qualification to Europe, the $$ incentive or whatever.

As for development, players can develop in England and become tremendous players at that. The key is making it onto the pitch and having something to contribute to the cause without disrupting the foundation/system that's in place. After all, there's more to football than just "development"... too much of that gets you nowhere but on a shyte bus to take on Boston United...

[sinner78]

Originally posted by HartwickFan


I think you missed Wanderer's point. Wander is not arguing that current Yanks have a wealth of choices between EPL, Serie A, Primera, Bundesliga, etc. Wander's making a comparative statement about the relative strengths of these leagues in developing talent -- he's saying IF a Yank had a choice among these leagues, he should not go to EPL. To say that Yanks don't have a choice doesn't tell us anything about the relative strengths of these leagues, and therefore doesn't address Wanderer's argument at all.

Have you actually read this thread and paid any attention whatsoever to what has been said??

If yanks have a wealth of chances to go to serie A ,la liga ,etc.. why have no transfers taken place??
How many yanks are in La liga and serie A?? answer == none
How many yanks are in germany?? answer == very few
Why dont you give me an example of a yank having to make the choice between serie A ,the premiership ,germany and la liga???
has that ever happened??? no it hasn;t.


I have already addressed the points about player development .If you bothered to read the thread you will already have seen my previous points.
We have restructered our whole youth development system and any claims that we dont know how to develop talent is a myth..
have any of you yank imbeciles ever seen the current england youth teams in action???
are you aware that our national team has an average age of only 22 ??
our youth development is excellent in our clubs.
You aint seen the young players that we've got .
None of you have the faintest idea what you're talking about....



If you yanks think you';re too good for us and then f'ck off somewhere else .who cares?? not us thats for sure.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by benine


I'm going on international emprical evidence here and why there is such a falling off of young talent when you get past the top tier clubs, that's all. Vassell is young and has a ton of promise, given.

Understood. Vassell is still developing of course and to be honest, he wasn't on too too many fans radars at all until 2000-2001. HIstorically, Villa's had a few characters at striker (Collymore, Dublin... Baloban...) but he did break through to fit into a role Erickson had him on.

[M]

Originally posted by HartwickFan


Let's look at the recent WC winners:

2002 Brazil
1998 France
1994 Brazil
1990 Germany
1986 Argentina

Now make two lists:

List #1:

How many of the players on those teams were playing in the English top flight when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in the English top flight?

List #2:

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?

I have a guess (it's just a hunch), that list #2 is longer (maybe a lot longer!) than list #1. I also tend to believe that this disparity tells us something about how well different leagues develop world class talent.

Wouldn't you expect list #2 to be rather longer given that you're comparing a single league against all other leagues in which there were foreign players who won a World Cup?

Anyway, the whole thing is rather dubious given that players most often move to countries that (i) have most money floating around or (ii) have a cultural affinity with their own country (e.g. Brasilians tend to end up on the Iberian peninsular). Additionally, how do you explain away the plethora of foreign World Cup winners who've played or play in Spain (supposedly an indication of the developmental skills of the Spanish League) versus the World Cup record of the Spanish team itself - which is far far worse than England's (and thus in the eyes of some of the poster's on this thread an indication of the poor developmental skills of said league)?

[M]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk

If you yanks think you';re too good for us and then f'ck off somewhere else .who cares?? not us thats for sure.

I think it's great having American players playing in England because then we can all have a good laugh at the self-righteous claptrap that frequents this board whenever they end up on the bench or playing for Fulham reserves.

[benine]

Originally posted by Alex_1


Understood. Vassell is still developing of course and to be honest, he wasn't on too too many fans radars at all until 2000-2001. HIstorically, Villa's had a few characters at striker (Collymore, Dublin... Baloban...) but he did break through to fit into a role Erickson had him on.

This brings up another interesting question:

Does England have too much focus on Owen?
How can a young player, like Vassell, develop knowing that he's just there to take pressure off another player?
How do the old(er) players like Fowler, Sheringham and Cole feel about that?
Without Heskey, where would england and owen really be in terms of striking talent? I mean, if the weight were to fall on Phillips and Fowler...well, lets just say thank god this is speculation...

[Mc_Midas]

i haven't read all this thread only a little bit so here is my view.

Firstly premiership players are reward well in england due to the richness of our league however we don't pay the top wages because we don't have to get players to take pay cuts in order for the club to be able to play in the league.

secondly the premiership is the strongest league in the world even tho only 3 teams can win the prem english teams have done very well in europe over the last few yrs. even tho no english team have won it since 99 we are one of the most consistant nations. if u join an english u will improve massivly or if u can't u will fail. No other league has the pace of the prem - improvement of stamina, also no one has the phyiscal side which england has - euros and others moan about it like made when they come here but it does help thier strength.

england is a good player for players to develop - they can learn from the best players in the world and they should develop.

However americans don't do well in england no american has done well ( bar kasey keller but he rules) - maybe its somefink to do with mentality, its just one of those things like the fact that players from norway/sweden/denmark do well in england.

american players would be better to go to a club in a weak league - i.e. france/holland because unless they got skillz they wont make it into the first team of the bigger leagues.

[Mc_Midas]

Originally posted by benine


This brings up another interesting question:

Does England have too much focus on Owen?
How can a young player, like Vassell, develop knowing that he's just there to take pressure off another player?
How do the old(er) players like Fowler, Sheringham and Cole feel about that?
Without Heskey, where would england and owen really be in terms of striking talent? I mean, if the weight were to fall on Phillips and Fowler...well, lets just say thank god this is speculation...

in england we have the 'if he isn't playing we are screwed mentality' owen like shearer before him is seen as englands hope. Fowler is a much better natural finisher than owen is. and teddy is well needed because heskey is just toss. at first ppl were scared of him cos of his size everyone now knows he goes down if u graze him and secondly all englands good partnerships operate on a striker and a person in the hole. i fink england would be fine if we didn't have heskey and owen - i fink we would be better off without heskey anyway - fowler and teddy would be a good strikepartnership.

[M]

Originally posted by eric515



From all reports I have seen, our players are in very high demand, the clubs just don't have the money to back up there desire for that player. These European clubs have been offering unacceptable monetary amounts for the players we have.


I think MLS has failed to realise that there simply isn't the same amount a transfer money floating around Europe any more. If they're expecting more money down the road, they're likely to be disappointed.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by Mc_Midas


in england we have the 'if he isn't playing we are screwed mentality' owen like shearer before him is seen as englands hope. Fowler is a much better natural finisher than owen is. and teddy is well needed because heskey is just toss. at first ppl were scared of him cos of his size everyone now knows he goes down if u graze him and secondly all englands good partnerships operate on a striker and a person in the hole. i fink england would be fine if we didn't have heskey and owen - i fink we would be better off without heskey anyway - fowler and teddy would be a good strikepartnership.

Not a Heskey fan, I see. ;)

But really? Teddy's a bit too old now and has certainly slowed and Fowler has alwasy been a bit of an enigma when it came to injury and consistency. But I do agree though - it is a "we're ***************ed" mentallity regarding Owen. Much like Shearer before him, he carries the load. IT was just a bit odd that the two never seemed to really tandem the way that I thought they would (Shearer and Owen) but then again, Owen was usually hurt in the days after 98.

Vassell has his time now and of course there are up and comers between now and Euro 2004.

[Mc_Midas]

teddy is old but he isn't too old for international football is slow compared to the prem so long as he can cope with the prem he can cope at international lvl.

fowler will do well once he gets over his injuries - if he didn't have those two years out he would be svens number one.

shearer and owen was a bad partnership players are too similar - england need a hole player and the only hole player we have is teddy. lots of shearers international goals were thanks to teddy.

Vassell is like owen and we be no use upfront next to him.

Matt Jansen was gonna be looked at by sven before the wc but was injured so he might come through. i never get why andy cole was never given a proper run - one of the top scorers in the prem.

[Achilles]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


well not since 66.
Italians aint won since 82.
Spain have never won it.
Holland have never won it..
are you gonna bash them as well???
only a small select group have won the world cup in recent times (brazil and france)

No, but you don't see the Dutch or the Spanish coming here acting the fool saying how much better they are than the world.

[M]

Originally posted by Achilles


No, but you don't see the Dutch or the Spanish coming here acting the fool saying how much better they are than the world.

Agreed, that seems to be the preserve of Americans...

[HartwickFan]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


Well how do i say this?? Frances 98 world cup winners and euro 2000 winners were mostly based in England .Henry ,petit ,viera ,etc....
Is that a shock to you??


Really? That is a shock to me! France '98 was "mostly based out of England"??? Bwahahahahahahah! You should try stand-up comedy! You're killing me! Pass me some of whatever you've been smoking! Stay off the crack if you're going to post! So France '98 was "mostly based out of England" LOL!

Lizarazu played for Bilbao and Bayern leading up to '98.
Zidane was with Juventus in 98.
Thuram was playing for Parma in 98.
Henry was with Monaco, and signed with Juve in 1998.
Desailly was with AC Milan in 98.
Deschamps was with Juventus in 98.
Djorkaeff was with Inter Milan in 98.
Dugarry was with Barca, and then Milan 98.
Karembeu was with Sampdoria in 98.
Boghossian was with Sampdoria in 98, and Napoli before that.

Pires was playing for Metz in '98.
Trezeguet was with Monaco in '98.
Blanc played for Napoli, Barca, and Inter Milan

The France '98 squad was "mostly based out of England?" That is a real shocker. Come back when you get a clue!

[benine]

Originally posted by Mc_Midas

Matt Jansen was gonna be looked at by sven before the wc but was injured so he might come through. i never get why andy cole was never given a proper run - one of the top scorers in the prem.


well, one goal (Albania?) in 13 games isnt the best numbers and didnt he miss like an 8 yarder against Finland? You have to REALLY 'strike' to be a good international striker, he seems to be more of a plod and preassure forward and less a prolific scorer. Cole would play the slot well if england went to a 4-4-1-1, but Sven and a 1-1 will probably never be a match.

[HartwickFan]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk

If yanks have a wealth of chances to go to serie A ,la liga ,etc.. why have no transfers taken place??
How many yanks are in La liga and serie A?? answer == none
How many yanks are in germany?? answer == very few
Why dont you give me an example of a yank having to make the choice between serie A ,the premiership ,germany and la liga???
has that ever happened??? no it hasn;t.


I will cheerfully concede that no Yank currently has a choice between serie A, premiership, germany, and la liga. I honestly don't see how that is at all relevant to a debate about which leagues are better at developing talent. Maybe you can explain to me how the number of choices that American players currently have is related in any way to the argument over which leagues are better at developing talent.

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk

We have restructered our whole youth development system and any claims that we dont know how to develop talent is a myth..
have any of you yank imbeciles ever seen the current england youth teams in action???
are you aware that our national team has an average age of only 22 ??
our youth development is excellent in our clubs.
You aint seen the young players that we've got .
None of you have the faintest idea what you're talking about....


Well, I admit, I haven't seen any of your clubs excellent youth development. I do know that a US youth squad (composed mostly of our youth national side's reserves and/or rejects) just bitch-slapped Bolton's U-21's 4-1, and outshot them something like 15-3.

http://www.ussoccer.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=19842&itype=

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by benine


And there are so many english players playing outside the UK, arent there.

For the billionth time.
There isn't the same desire to go abroad to find success at a higher level of football here than there is elsewhere (particularly in 'weaker' leagues).
There isn't the need to. We have great strength in depth where our football clubs are concerned.
The English football leagues are consistently described as being amongst the top in Europe (even the World), so by your measure all the Italian young talent should be scouting elsewhere too. What's the point when decent football is played and decent wages are paid here?

As an extra point, I've heard a few times that the offers coming in for US players 'have been laughably minuscule' and nowhere near what they are worth. As any good antiques dealer will tell you (and I'm not calling the US team antiques before any touchy or pubescent American jumps on my back), something is only worth as much as someone else is willing to pay for it. It's pointless arguing that DMB(for example) is 'worth' $Xmillion, when teams are offering less than that. 'Worth' is something for the buyer to decide on, not the seller.

Unfortunately for MLS, they have put their players on a world stage (and this time they've done something worth looking at), just as the transfer fee/wage bubble has burst. If they'd have been around 2 years ago, this whole issue would for the most part be irrelevant. Most of the team would have been bought for over-inflated prices and been given over-inflated wages by several middling clubs (maybe even better than that, who knows?). Those times are mostly gone however and I for one can't see them returning any time soon. The problem is that MLS (or more accurately, the fans) is expecting those same inflated prices (I know some are artificially high demands in order to keep talent at home, or at least try to do that) for what Euro teams consider to be 'average' talent. The offers given now for the services of various members of the US team are actually closer to the true 'worth' of the players, than the inflated prices of a few years ago and that are being expected now.

It's just a case of bad timing, the US team missed the boat, however if people were worried that MLS would die if all the talent went overseas, I'm not sure that's an issue anymore.