Why Young Yanks shouldn't go to the premiership part 2

[sinner78]

Originally posted by dcc134


Players develop by being exposed to different styles and systems. That is why England has struggled over the years, none of their players get play outside of the EPL.

really is that why we have struggled??

Is that why spain haven't done well?? they aint won anything since 64 and I dont see anyone questioning them.
We haven't done as well as we should because we play too many games and go into tournaments with physically burnout players .

Players from the top leagues (spain ,england and italy) dont move abroad because they can get big money at home .Players from other countries move abroad for the money .
None of the italian national team plays abroad.
Its all about Money .

[OBartleby]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
You're singing the same tune again??
LOL
You never answered any of my points in the last thread.

How many of the yank team from the world cup team have moved to Europe since the end of the world cup??
answer== none

team's aren't exactly lining up to buy your players.
I dont see anyone from spain or italy fighting over any yank players .I dont see any top euro scouts fighting for your signatures...
You're telling them not to go to the premiership even though we haven't even made an offers for your players .
No one else is making offers by the looks of it.
You make it sound as if you can pick and choose the best teams in europe.LOL
Get real and face reality.
Your players aren't as much in demand as you like to think.
Good luck in finding non-existant offers from other nations .
You know, Monk, I actually agree with you: Our national team players aren't in demand, although the exact reasons for this are debatable. The problem is that you have as much tact as Roy Keane on Quaaludes and a fifth of absynth....

[benine]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
[B]

ooh what an expert.
Most national teams base their squads around players from the best teams .we get a bulk of our team from man utd ,arsenal ,liverpool ,etc...
Practically the entire squad was from top sides.


well, if you'd read the rest of my post, dipshit, it was a comment on why those players play better and are looked apon more. and i sure did claim to be an expert, didnt I?



vassell was actually one of the better players agianst sweden .but after that game we altered our system and he didn't get much playing time.
Any suggestion that he "sucked" is laughable and ill-informed.playing for Villa does him no harm.


i'll say it again: he sucked; one shoot not on target, three fouls and got knocked all over the place. great striking. yeah, playing at villa didnt hurt him at all (snore...cole pt2).



Really??
reyna actually played in europe this season.
His final game for rangers was against paris SG in the uefa cup .That just about sums up your level of knowledge.Any poor play can hardly be blamed on playing for sunderland for acouple of months.He only played about 7 games for them .LOL


yeah, and in seven games playing mid-bottom table primership ball as a warm up he sunk from being a controler to being an overly physicall, non-finesse player. it would have been better for him to still be at Rangers playing dump and chase than to have to grind out a Sunderland season. Yeah, he saw action in UEFA, but all that polish was warn off by the time he left Sunderland for the cup.




You've got no need to worry because no teams have made any bids for your players .You can stay at home in the "mighty" MLS.
The claim that it would be suicide to send players here is comical .
Nobody has made any bids for your players so it aint even worth debating where to send them.

well, mr. expert, that about sums up the extent of your knoweldge, doesnt it? MLS has received bids for DMB, McBride and Mathis from EPL and D.1 clubs as well as continent clubs. Friedel didnt just show up at Blackburn, did he? ticktock. You've made my case, idiot:
American players arent talented enough to crack into the top tier EPL clubs; the top tier EPL clubs are where the majority of the English side is picked from; the top talent wants to play for/gets better because of those top teams playing in Europe; if your not seeing Europe time, youre screwed as an english player as far as making the nats. So YES, it would be suicide to send a player to England to develop. Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better; Duff is the only name coming to my mind. Come on, expert.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by The Wanderer


I never said EPL clubs were lining up to buy our players. Nor did I say we had a whole bunch of players capable of playing at that level. I'm saying that if young yanks really want to get better, they should find another league to play in if they have the option.

Where are you going to send them if no one makes offers for them??
You think a youngster would turn down the chance to move to a side like Man utd?? a side with a renowned youth development system.The players they produce are excellent .The same can be said about sides like Liverpool ,west ham ,etc...

Where are you gonna send them ???
Where are the offers???

The premise is that if you're taught kick and chase high energy style as a youth, you should look for a league where the style is the opposite in order to become a more rounded player.

You dont know the teachings of youth football in england .Dont insult us and say the players are deliberately taught to play kick and rush .
The current crop of players we;ve got are just as good as anyone elses players .Our side that went to the world cup had the average age of 22.
We have restructed our whole system and we're only just beginning to see the results .
You only have to look at the standard of our youth teams .The stuff they play is top notch and their skills are just as good as anyone elses.
To say they are taught just to hoof the ball up the pitch is absolute garbage.Have you seen our current uder-16 team play or our under-19's??

no didnt think so....



Sure Germany won't cut it, they did after all make the finals of the World Cup. They also had a team in the Champion's League final. How many World Cups have they won compared to England again? Please. All you prove is that penis envy exists as much in Europe as it does in the rest of the world.

Who said anything about germany??
how many yanks are in germany? about 2 or 3??LOL

How many world cups have germany won compared to spain?? Is the spanish league bad because spain haven;t done so well in the world cup??
I thought La liga was regarded as the best league.
using your "expert" logic you shouldn't send players to spain because spain aint won for a while.
yeah thats it.... dont send players to league that hasn;t produced a winning national team for a while ..
ooops hangs on a second ...99% of teams haven't produced a winning national team for a while..
ooh looks like you'll have to stay at home.



The players have chimed in, coaches around the world have given their thoughts. I know you all and the American Anglophiles will still disagree. It's okay---keep living in denial. At least WC '06 will take place in Germany where you have a better chance at playing your up tempo direct 'Premiership' football.

Have you ever watching the premiership??
if you think sides like man utd ,liverpool ,arsenal ,etc.. play direct than you aint watched them .
Which teams play direct??? name them .


Bruce Arena-"Going to England didn't suddenly make Joe-Max a better player." This was after he scored 5 goals in his first 7 games with Everton.

joe max moore is a bench warmer for everton.
How many game sdid he play last year??
about 5 or 6???




So overall you just rehashed the same old crap from the last thread.
Your logic is laughable .
You've got no need to worry about sending players over here because we aint interested and neither is anybody else by the looks of it.LOL

[Newman]

I would like to see young Americans take their first step overseas to clubs in France and Holland. They seem to do a remarkable job of developing skillfull play. Playing time isn't quite as difficult to get either. The competition level didn't seem to hurt the Senegalese. Once a player hits their early 20's, I'm less concerned, as long as they play. If John O'Brien moved to an EPL team now, he wouldn't suddenly become a worse player.

I think the EPL vs. other major leagues is a matter of preferred style. England did well at the Cup-particularly without Gerrard. Goalkeeping, supposedly a historic strength, let them down in a game with the eventual champs. No reason to bury the EPL. I don't much care for the 500 MPH style of play-but for some players it could be a great environment. If Mathis did well in the EPL, you'd never hear a complaint about his work-rate again.

MLS does have players Europe wants. MLS knows that these players have a lot more visibility in America than ever before, and are pricing them accordingly. With lots of good Euro players on free transfers (Come on down to Crazy Cecchi Gori's for rock bottom rates on Fiorentina players...) and MLS in season, you're not likely to see a flood of Americans. For the long-term health of US soccer though, it's the 16-17 year olds going over to play in youth systems, who don't get a lot of press, that will really lift us come 2010. And yes, some are in England (2 or 3 with Arsenal I think).

[sinner78]

Originally posted by benine


and i sure did claim to be an expert, didnt I?

yeah you're right.
You're clearly not an expert.


i'll say it again: he sucked; one shoot not on target, three fouls and got knocked all over the place. great striking. yeah, playing at villa didnt hurt him at all (snore...cole pt2).

He only played about 80 minutes in the whole tournament and you for some reason single him out as someone who "sucks" .His international record is 3 goals in 5 games .He scored on his international debut against holland .That makes him a bad player?? haha not likely.




yeah, and in seven games playing mid-bottom table primership ball as a warm up he sunk from being a controler to being an overly physicall, non-finesse player. it would have been better for him to still be at Rangers playing dump and chase than to have to grind out a Sunderland season. Yeah, he saw action in UEFA, but all that polish was warn off by the time he left Sunderland for the cup. [/qote]

So you're claiming he suddenly lost his entire repotoire of skills just by playing afew games for sunderland??? He cant be a very good player if he forgets his "skills" afew only afew games .

have you ever actualy seen rangers play???
since when have they been a skillful ,attractive team??? they aint played well for about 3 year and let celtic walk allover them in the SPL.






[quote]well, mr. expert, that about sums up the extent of your knoweldge, doesnt it? MLS has received bids for DMB, McBride and Mathis from EPL and D.1 clubs as well as continent clubs. Friedel didnt just show up at Blackburn, did he? ticktock. You've made my case, idiot:

What offers???
None of the MLS based players have moved to europe .No one has bought any of your players.
Not a single player has been purchased.
Come back to me when someone has actually been bought .until then shut up.



American players arent talented enough to crack into the top tier EPL clubs; the top tier EPL clubs are where the majority of the English side is picked from; the top talent wants to play for/gets better because of those top teams playing in Europe;

We;ll have 8 teams europe this season .Plus a possible 2 more through the intertoto cup.
Playing in Europe would be worthwhle if you're playing for a really top team that regularly reaches the later stages .Not many teams regularly reach the later stages ....sides like real madrid ,bayern munich ,man utd ,liverpool ,etc....
most other sides just play a couple of games and then get knocked out ,so playing in europe doesn't make much difference in most cases .
O brien plays for Ajax but how many games has he played in europe??? ajax have been crap in europe for quite afew year so he cant have played more than a handful of games.


if your not seeing Europe time, youre screwed as an english player as far as making the nats. So YES, it would be suicide to send a player to England to develop. Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better; Duff is the only name coming to my mind. Come on, expert.


You want me to name youngsters who came through our ranks???
How about Nicolas Anelka?? he came to arsenal at 17 and left when he was 21 to join real madrid for 20 million .Thats just an example .Im sure I could find plenty of other examples but I've made my point .

[Prenn]

Originally posted by benine


i'll say it again: he sucked; one shoot not on target, three fouls and got knocked all over the place. great striking. yeah, playing at villa didnt hurt him at all (snore...cole pt2).


5 games, 3 goals. I think he only started 2 of them, It says it all really. If he was American your view of him would be a bit different I think.

[Prenn]

Can we have a show of hands from the Americans in this thread who can actually form an opinion about English football without resorting to stereotypes? :rolleyes:

Next person to use the 'kick and rush' cliche will be ridiculed at my leisure.

[benine]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


yeah you're right.
You're clearly not an expert.


oh, ZING! Is that "British wit"? Fairly low-brow word turns, very playgroundish.


He only played about 80 minutes in the whole tournament and you for some reason single him out as someone who "sucks" .His international record is 3 goals in 5 games .He scored on his international debut against holland .That makes him a bad player?? haha not likely.


A: he's been capped 9 times.
B: other than the fantastic goal against Holland, he scored in friendlies against Paraguay (WOW! Murphy even got one in that game, against no Chillavert) and Cameroon (super WOW!).





What offers???
None of the MLS based players have moved to europe .No one has bought any of your players.
Not a single player has been purchased.
Come back to me when someone has actually been bought .until then shut up.


you really keep up on things, dont you?
unlike the rest of the world, just because a player wants to leave MLS doesnt mean he's handed a transfer because the league trys to get too much out of their players. The players want to leave but since the league holds their contracts and not the teams, they are selling. So, untill you read up on and get some honest knowledge about american players, SHUT UP.





O brien plays for Ajax but how many games has he played in europe??? ajax have been crap in europe for quite afew year so he cant have played more than a handful of games.


and your point is...you're comparing apples to oranges by bringing up O'Brien; he's at a club with a better developing system than 95% of english clubs, so Europe is less important. man, you are really grasping for any bit to try and wax on.




You want me to name youngsters who came through our ranks???
How about Nicolas Anelka?? he came to arsenal at 17 and left when he was 21 to join real madrid for 20 million .Thats just an example .Im sure I could find plenty of other examples but I've made my point .

hahahaha! how sad... maybe you have a problem with selective reading or your ego prevents certain words from being understood, but the original question, oh ye expert, is "Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better".
And Anelka went to Madrid, stunk it up, went back to FRANCE and is now with City, a D1 at best team. wow, great development. i dont know if you really had a point with that, so maybe it was proven by your inane logic.

[benine]

Originally posted by Prenn


5 games, 3 goals. I think he only started 2 of them, It says it all really. If he was American your view of him would be a bit different I think.


Well, if he were american and I touted his record you'd probably say "well, one of those goals was against a Chilavert-less Paraguay and another was a casual friendly against a half-sided Cameroon team, silly yanks...call us when you play some real competition"

[Achilles]

Sinner,

The top level English Nat players play in the Top end of the Premiership table?

When was the last time you won the World Cup? How was your World Cup showing in 94?

I love EPL, don't get me wrong, but doorknobs like yourself tend to color my image of the English. Of course our players are not as developed as in England, however we are quickly floating up to par in that particular arena.

There have been offers for Beasley, Mathis, and McBride as someone earlier has said. However, given the popularity of football/soccer in the US after the World Cup, our league is inflating thier prices to keep them at home.

We have US players in the EPL. And there will be more in the future. If you need to insult those few American fans who do "get your game" I can only assume you are scared of a future where American players will be on the same level as the English. Where a friendly or WC match will not be a "sure thing".

Relax. We all love the same game, and Americans joining the World Stage as a Football/Soccer "power" benefits the sport.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by benine


A: he's been capped 9 times.
B: other than the fantastic goal against Holland, he scored in friendlies against Paraguay (WOW! Murphy even got one in that game, against no Chillavert) and Cameroon (super WOW!).

Darius vassell is a young player who is still developing .His 3 goals in afew appearances is better than alot of other players from so-called bigger clubs .Why the obsession with trying to trash vassell?? He had done OK for us and had a decent start .



you really keep up on things, dont you?
unlike the rest of the world, just because a player wants to leave MLS doesnt mean he's handed a transfer because the league trys to get too much out of their players. The players want to leave but since the league holds their contracts and not the teams, they are selling. So, untill you read up on and get some honest knowledge about american players, SHUT UP.


Has any top side put any money on the table to buy a yank??? answer== no.
have any yanks move abroad?? answer = no
Surely the league wouldn't be so greedy and deny yanks the chance to join all these top clubs that allegedly want yank players?? If they wont let players go then its your own fault.


and your point is...you're comparing apples to oranges by bringing up O'Brien; he's at a club with a better developing system than 95% of english clubs, so Europe is less important. man, you are really grasping for any bit to try and wax on.

So europe is less important now is it??
I thought you said it was vital in your previous posts .Looks like you change your mind more often then your underwear .
A player needs to experience top level euro football because you can only go so far in the dutch league.
As for ajax youth system..... they have been known to have a good youth acacemy but the recent dutch national teams haven't featured any ajax players .their acadamy has had abit of a dry patch in terms of producing top players .



hahahaha! how sad... maybe you have a problem with selective reading or your ego prevents certain words from being understood, but the original question, oh ye expert, is "Name a young foriegn player who came to a non-europe EPL team and gotten better".
And Anelka went to Madrid, stunk it up, went back to FRANCE and is now with City, a D1 at best team. wow, great development. i dont know if you really had a point with that, so maybe it was proven by your inane logic.

We dont traditionally sign youngsters from outside of europe .We dont really go to places like africa or south america in the same way that other leagues do.... Non-Ec players only started arriving in the last 2 years.


Dont waste my time with your drivel.
You aint got a clue .
This debate is pointless because no one is really interested in signing young yanks .
Who cares?? send them to albania for all I care.

[khara1111]

Originally posted by Prenn
You're going to lose again, this isn't good enough.

Was Southgate interviewed just after the world cup by any chance?

Just what league would you want to send your young players to?

Holland?
Italy?
Spain?
Portugal?

None of these leagues had national teams finishing ahead of England, only 1 got as far.

Tell ya what... send them all to Germany.

Nice try but not good enough.

Italy has won the WC 3 times, twice on foreign soil and have the 3rd best all time WC record second only to Germany and Brazil. They have only once failed to qualify for the WC. How many times did England qualify.
Also in this WC, England never got the opportunity to get screwed by S Korea favoring refs. So take your retarted comparisons somewhere else.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by Achilles


When was the last time you won the World Cup? How was your World Cup showing in 94

well not since 66.
Italians aint won since 82.
Spain have never won it.
Holland have never won it..
are you gonna bash them as well???
only a small select group have won the world cup in recent times (brazil and france)

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by khara1111


Italy has won the WC 3 times, twice on foreign soil and have the 3rd best all time WC record second only to Germany and Brazil. They have only once failed to qualify for the WC. How many times did England qualify.
Also in this WC, England never got the opportunity to get screwed by S Korea favoring refs. So take your retarted comparisons somewhere else.

Only thing that was retarded would appear to be the above analysis as it totally missed Prenn's point. ;)

[benine]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
Darius vassell is a young player who is still developing .His 3 goals in afew appearances is better than alot of other players from so-called bigger clubs .Why the obsession with trying to trash vassell?? He had done OK for us and had a decent start .


i started out with him as a comparison of what makes him average and what makes people like Owen and Hargraves better than average: if in the EPL, its because of Europe; if not in the EPL its because your not in the EPL.



Has any top side put any money on the table to buy a yank??? answer== no. i guess B.Munich, Boro, Fulham, Preston and Ajax arnt top enough
have any yanks move abroad?? answer = no
Surely the league wouldn't be so greedy and deny yanks the chance to join all these top clubs that allegedly want yank players?? If they wont let players go then its your own fault.

how is it my fault that our joke league is dillusional about player value and league growth? yes, MLS has flat out turned down requests for DMB, Mathis, McBride and Wolff against the players wishes to try and "grow the league" by keeping the talent close to home.




So europe is less important now is it??
I thought you said it was vital in your previous posts .Looks like you change your mind more often then your underwear .

reading comprehension must really be lacking in England. the CRUX of this argument is that the only thing that makes english players in the EPL better is Europe, otherwise they'd be even less developed. How young are you? where's your memory? go back and read up.

A player needs to experience top level euro football because you can only go so far in the dutch league.
As for ajax youth system..... they have been known to have a good youth acacemy but the recent dutch national teams haven't featured any ajax players .their acadamy has had abit of a dry patch in terms of producing top players .

due to finance troubles, in large part, as well as bringing in international young'ns to feature; meanwhile, PSV has picked up the task of growing the local talent...go on...






Dont waste my time with your drivel.
You aint got a clue .
This debate is pointless because no one is really interested in signing young yanks .
Who cares?? send them to albania for all I care.


And there are so many english players playing outside the UK, arent there.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by OBartleby

You know, Monk, I actually agree with you: Our national team players aren't in demand, although the exact reasons for this are debatable. The problem is that you have as much tact as Roy Keane on Quaaludes and a fifth of absynth....

That's what got a few folks knickers in a bunch - although in many ways the truth was hard enough to swallow. Tact never really was Sinner's strong suit. :p

Anyway, I had to pipe in that some are commenting on Vassell with England and clearly have no idea what they're on about regarding him, his role, England's system and even the system Vassell plays at Villa. :rolleyes: He's a terrific player and will only get better... I don't see where some folks are comin' off saying that he "sucked"... it only shows a lack of knowledge and inability to analyze England's WC matches and his role offsetting Owen + the strategies that were formed against the England strikers.

Anyway, its' up to the players to go there, and it's up to the clubs to sign them if they fit in. Peole won't just get a player because he's from wherever. Same goes for Brazilians - with club football it's about money, and results. In the last premiership season, dare I saw the only AMerican player that had a strong impact on his club was Brad Friedel. Moore was rubbish and out of favor, Reyna was solid but Sundarland were struggling, and he couldn't turn that around, nor would it be fair to assume that he could from the beginning. Keller was good when he played however was so dramatic that he even annoyed me.

In the future perhaps more AMericans will go abroad... depending on the financial situations of the clubs/leagues go. But then again, who knows what really would have happened if there wasn't the situtaion we have now? Perhaps we'd be looking at the same scenario with many rumours and none coming to fruition.

[sinner78]

Originally posted by khara1111


Italy has won the WC 3 times, twice on foreign soil and have the 3rd best all time WC record second only to Germany and Brazil. They have only once failed to qualify for the WC. How many times did England qualify.
Also in this WC, England never got the opportunity to get screwed by S Korea favoring refs. So take your retarted comparisons somewhere else.

retarted???LOL

why are you are poking your nose in this debate??

I dont have any sympathy for all this alleged talk of getting "screwed" by refs .
We've been stitched up by refs loads of times down the years and I dont see any one giving us sympathy.remember mexico 86?? no you#'re probably not old enough.
take your sob story somewhere else.

[HartwickFan]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk


really is that why we have struggled??

Is that why spain haven't done well?? they aint won anything since 64 and I dont see anyone questioning them.
We haven't done as well as we should because we play too many games and go into tournaments with physically burnout players .

Players from the top leagues (spain ,england and italy) dont move abroad because they can get big money at home .Players from other countries move abroad for the money .
None of the italian national team plays abroad.
Its all about Money .

Let's look at the recent WC winners:

2002 Brazil
1998 France
1994 Brazil
1990 Germany
1986 Argentina

Now make two lists:

List #1:

How many of the players on those teams were playing in the English top flight when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in the English top flight?

List #2:

How many players on those teams were playing in leagues other than their domestic leagues when their team won the WC, or how many players on those teams developed in leagues other than their domestic leagues?

I have a guess (it's just a hunch), that list #2 is longer (maybe a lot longer!) than list #1. I also tend to believe that this disparity tells us something about how well different leagues develop world class talent.

[HartwickFan]

Originally posted by sinner_ronald_monk
You're singing the same tune again??
LOL
You never answered any of my points in the last thread.

How many of the yank team from the world cup team have moved to Europe since the end of the world cup??
answer== none


team's aren't exactly lining up to buy your players.
I dont see anyone from spain or italy fighting over any yank players .I dont see any top euro scouts fighting for your signatures...
You're telling them not to go to the premiership even though we haven't even made an offers for your players .
No one else is making offers by the looks of it.
You make it sound as if you can pick and choose the best teams in europe.LOL
Get real and face reality.
Your players aren't as much in demand as you like to think.
Good luck in finding non-existant offers from other nations .

I think you missed Wanderer's point. Wander is not arguing that current Yanks have a wealth of choices between EPL, Serie A, Primera, Bundesliga, etc. Wander's making a comparative statement about the relative strengths of these leagues in developing talent -- he's saying IF a Yank had a choice among these leagues, he should not go to EPL. To say that Yanks don't have a choice doesn't tell us anything about the relative strengths of these leagues, and therefore doesn't address Wanderer's argument at all.