Player Accountability

[KozIsCul]

Getting ready for the Chelsea game, it occurred to me that there's something worth mentioning that's an undercurrent to the big-picture threads in this forum.

That is, that Arsenal is dependent on its players in ways that Man Utd and especially aren't. When you spend 20M pounds on every player two deep across the roster, you don't have to sweat the day in-day out changes in their performance. Somebody will be healthy, and somebody will be in form, and for the important games you just play them. Let's be a little more specific. If Salomon Kalou or Joe Cole, even Shevchenko, don't fit, the solution is simple, sit 'em. But for Arsenal, we are depending on particular players, not just for overall quality even, but also to fill particular roles. Not just the big names even, but guys a couple of steps down on the superstar ladder as well, eg, Clichy, Adebayor, Flamini, etc.

And the flip side is, that for the staff and for the supporters, because we are depending on these guys, we have to demand more accountability out of them. And when they fail, corrections must be made. So if TH has a lackadaisical effort three games in a row, or Eboue can't leverage the space and possession he gets down the right hand channel, we have to call them out. This is necessary, and shouldn't be taken as being gratuitously harsh.

[Miles Brasher]

Getting ready for the Chelsea game, it occurred to me that there's something worth mentioning that's an undercurrent to the big-picture threads in this forum.

That is, that Arsenal is dependent on its players in ways that Man Utd and especially aren't. When you spend 20M pounds on every player two deep across the roster, you don't have to sweat the day in-day out changes in their performance. Somebody will be healthy, and somebody will be in form, and for the important games you just play them. Let's be a little more specific. If Salomon Kalou or Joe Cole, even Shevchenko, don't fit, the solution is simple, sit 'em. But for Arsenal, we are depending on particular players, not just for overall quality even, but also to fill particular roles. Not just the big names even, but guys a couple of steps down on the superstar ladder as well, eg, Clichy, Adebayor, Flamini, etc.

And the flip side is, that for the staff and for the supporters, because we are depending on these guys, we have to demand more accountability out of them. And when they fail, corrections must be made. So if TH has a lackadaisical effort three games in a row, or Eboue can't leverage the space and possession he gets down the right hand channel, we have to call them out. This is necessary, and shouldn't be taken as being gratuitously harsh.

I understand your argument, but Shevchenko has NOT been playing well, and he hasn't been dropped, so you're wrong

[Rick B]

Getting ready for the Chelsea game, it occurred to me that there's something worth mentioning that's an undercurrent to the big-picture threads in this forum.

That is, that Arsenal is dependent on its players in ways that Man Utd and especially aren't. When you spend 20M pounds on every player two deep across the roster, you don't have to sweat the day in-day out changes in their performance. Somebody will be healthy, and somebody will be in form, and for the important games you just play them. Let's be a little more specific. If Salomon Kalou or Joe Cole, even Shevchenko, don't fit, the solution is simple, sit 'em. But for Arsenal, we are depending on particular players, not just for overall quality even, but also to fill particular roles. Not just the big names even, but guys a couple of steps down on the superstar ladder as well, eg, Clichy, Adebayor, Flamini, etc.

And the flip side is, that for the staff and for the supporters, because we are depending on these guys, we have to demand more accountability out of them. And when they fail, corrections must be made. So if TH has a lackadaisical effort three games in a row, or Eboue can't leverage the space and possession he gets down the right hand channel, we have to call them out. This is necessary, and shouldn't be taken as being gratuitously harsh.


I vote this the most factually incorrect post of the season.

[KozIsCul]

I understand your argument, but Shevchenko has NOT been playing well, and he hasn't been dropped, so you're wrong

Right, but the point being is that the game-in game-out success of the squad isn't dependent on him, arguably the biggest name in football. For most of their games, they'll win if he plays, or if he doesn't. By contrast, the failings of somebody like Adebayor are affecting us much more dramatically.

[KozIsCul]

I vote this the most factually incorrect post of the season.

What exactly is your beef this time?

[Miles Brasher]

Right, but the point being is that the game-in game-out success of the squad isn't dependent on him, arguably the biggest name in football. For most of their games, they'll win if he plays, or if he doesn't. By contrast, the failings of somebody like Adebayor are affecting us much more dramatically.



errr....no ??? yes ??

what, I don't understand ?? where's the tea ?

[pookspur]

it kind of sounds like you're initially saying "we haven't enough depth to keep a dip in a starter's form from being disproportionately hurtful", but then concluding with "we have to hold them more accountable".

but isn't greater depth needed to hold them more accountable? it sounds a bit like you're prescribing a cure for a symptom, which just happens to be the same cure for the disease.

edit: of course, it could be that i'm not getting something. that's been known to happen.

[KozIsCul]

it kind of sounds like you're initially saying "we haven't enough depth to keep a dip in a starter's form from being disproportionately hurtful", but then concluding with "we have to hold them more accountable".

but isn't greater depth needed to hold them more accountable? it sounds a bit like you're prescribing a cure for a symptom, which just happens to be the same cure for the disease.

edit: of course, it could be that i'm not getting something. that's been known to happen.

It's just that some here have accused others here, me in particular, of being too harsh, not a real fan, blah, blah. But the point being is that's just the way it is. Because we care about the players as individuals, we have invested the success of the team in them, we have to be able to hold them accountable, to call them out when they're not getting it done.

[BenfromUSA]

what he's saying is: If one or two of our difference makers don't play well, we lose. thats due to the fact that we only have a handful of difference making midfielders and forwards, as opposed to chelsea who's got a lineup of them, plus reserves.

[Rick B]

It's just that some here have accused others here, me in particular, of being too harsh, not a real fan, blah, blah. But the point being is that's just the way it is. Because we care about the players as individuals, we have invested the success of the team in them, we have to be able to hold them accountable, to call them out when they're not getting it done.

No, I accuse you of nothing other than talking absolute rubbish most of the time. You have a history of only appearing when we are losing a couple of games, take no account we have a new stadium, that it takes a while for players to adapt to the Premiership and just generally want to buy some pretty stupid players without taking into account of the kind of club we are.

Now however much you have invested into the side (which I find highly amusing.....) slagging off players who have played well and generally being derogetry to players is something I don't like. This is a free site, so your welcome to your opinion - but then don't get all high and mighty when I keep pointing out (as do many others) that you talk so much damm crap.

[pookspur]

It's just that some here have accused others here, me in particular, of being too harsh, not a real fan, blah, blah. But the point being is that's just the way it is. Because we care about the players as individuals, we have invested the success of the team in them, we have to be able to hold them accountable, to call them out when they're not getting it done.

gotcha.

but how, with all respect, do you hold them accountable? it seems that this is criticism more suited to wenger or dein for providing either to little depth or too little quality. i mean, unless the players in question are simply not putting the effort in, what can one do? you can't just say "hey, play better!" - at least not to any real effect, right?

i'm just not quite getting the "corrections" that "must be made", to which you referred. apologies if i'm being thick.

[KozIsCul]

gotcha.

but how, with all respect, do you hold them accountable? it seems that this is criticism more suited to wenger or dein for providing either to little depth or too little quality. i mean, unless the players in question are simply not putting the effort in, what can one do?


Absolutely. As it happens, my post was about the players, but as far as the manager, the staff, and the board are concerned, the story is the same there. If there was one thing that I would do first that would be the biggest benefit to the team, I'd reengineer the training methods to emphasize the determination to win, something that has unfortunately been lacking in our team so far this year.

[surfcam]

Absolutely. As it happens, my post was about the players, but as far as the manager, the staff, and the board are concerned, the story is the same there. If there was one thing that I would do first that would be the biggest benefit to the team, I'd reengineer the training methods to emphasize the determination to win, something that has unfortunately been lacking in our team so far this year.

You really do make me chuckle at times.

[KozIsCul]

No, I accuse you of nothing other than talking absolute rubbish most of the time. You have a history of only appearing when we are losing a couple of games, take no account we have a new stadium, that it takes a while for players to adapt to the Premiership and just generally want to buy some pretty stupid players without taking into account of the kind of club we are.


Except for the fact that I'm not talking rubbish, and we both damn well know it. Except for that little detail, everything you say is spot on.

Getting a new stadium is supposed to help. Not just financially, but also the fact that we have more room to leverage our superior athleticism. Besides which, we've lost four games on the road already. How exactly is new stadium responsible for us losing to Fulham or fkkkkin Manchester City?

All of these are just red herrings to hide the unpleasant reality that there are people associated with the club who aren't doing what needs to be done: players, coaches, the boss, etc. The difference between me and you (one of them, at least) is that I don't accept that these things are just the way it is and there's nothing we (as a team) can do about it.

Eg, when the France NT coach runs TH into the ground, we just have to shrug our shoulders and say "shucks". The hell we do. There are things to do to prevent that, and if we as a team don't do those things, we can only blame ourselves when can't play.

[Rick B]

Except for the fact that I'm not talking rubbish, and we both damn well know it. Except for that little detail, everything you say is spot on.

Getting a new stadium is supposed to help. Not just financially, but also the fact that we have more room to leverage our superior athleticism. Besides which, we've lost four games on the road already. How exactly is new stadium responsible for us losing to Fulham or fkkkkin Manchester City?

All of these are just red herrings to hide the unpleasant reality that there are people associated with the club who aren't doing what needs to be done: players, coaches, the boss, etc. The difference between me and you (one of them, at least) is that I don't accept that these things are just the way it is and there's nothing we (as a team) can do about it.

Eg, when the France NT coach runs TH into the ground, we just have to shrug our shoulders and say "shucks". The hell we do. There are things to do to prevent that, and if we as a team don't do those things, we can only blame ourselves when can't play.


Ya see you think your clever sunny jim. You give yourself away too much. No-one who had watched the game away at Man City would of criticised the team. No-one. We were supurb. We dominated the game and hit the post and bar. We got unlucky, thats football. One of those thigs however much you may not like it.

As for Fulham - you did see the team sheet didn't you? Oh and perhaps the match as well? And possibly, just possibly you noticed the next three games were Spurs home, Porto away and Chelsea away? The next three games were far far more important than the Fulham game. Wenger took a gamble as he had to that he must rest some of the players for Fulham. Unfortunatly (again) we hit the post and missed a couple of good chances and Henry (who in your eyes seems to do no wrong.......:rolleyes: ) had a poor game as he has done a few times this season.

As for you continued bullshit that Arsenal can stop internationals playing, will you please just button it? Your stupidity was quite amusing at first - now it's just boring, pathetic and tiresome.

[Miles Brasher]

You really do make me chuckle at times.


You might want to pass on some of that cheerfulness to Rick:)

As for you continued bullshit that Arsenal can stop internationals playing, will you please just button it? Your stupidity was quite amusing at first - now it's just boring, pathetic and tiresome.

[Shibby13]

Getting a new stadium is supposed to help. Not just financially, but also the fact that we have more room to leverage our superior athleticism. Besides which, we've lost four games on the road already. How exactly is new stadium responsible for us losing to Fulham or fkkkkin Manchester City?

Anyone who has a clue knows that getting a new stadium will in fact hurt you more than help you in the first few years. It's a thing called debt-Arsenal has a lot of it right now and can't afford to spend as much as other clubs. In the long run it will help a lot financially but right now that is not the case.

[KozIsCul]

And possibly, just possibly you noticed the next three games were Spurs home, Porto away and Chelsea away? The next three games were far far more important than the Fulham game.


No, no, no, a trillion times no. If we intend to succeed in the Premier League (and I say we do) there is no game on earth more important than Fulham, a team that is going to be perfectly happy to finish 16th in the table and try again next year. This is true both for the game at the time and in the metaphorical sense that it is the consistency of beating teams like Fulham that is the first thing that a team like us has to have in order to challenge for the League title.

And about Henry, I can't possibly imagine where that eyeroll crap comes in. The first reason why we are not in the chase is because Henry has had a damn poor year. And the reason for that (one of the main ones at least) is because he has worn himself out playing lameass int'l games against Bosnia and fkkkkin Herzogovina and the rest of the idiots.

I think you must have me confused with somebody else on that one.

[Shibby13]

No, no, no, a trillion times no. If we intend to succeed in the Premier League (and I say we do) there is no game on earth more important than Fulham, a team that is going to be perfectly happy to finish 16th in the table and try again next year. This is true both for the game at the time and in the metaphorical sense that it is the consistency of beating teams like Fulham that is the first thing that a team like us has to have in order to challenge for the League title.

There is no way the Fulham game is more important to the club than the Porto game, where we need a result to secure ourselves millions more and keep alive our Champions Leage dream. There is also no way in hell the Fulham game is more important that the Tottenham game in any way. Wenger had to rest players for that game if you looked at the next 3 fixtures, and there were 3 in 8 days.

[surfcam]

No, no, no, a trillion times no. If we intend to succeed in the Premier League (and I say we do) there is no game on earth more important than Fulham, a team that is going to be perfectly happy to finish 16th in the table and try again next year. This is true both for the game at the time and in the metaphorical sense that it is the consistency of beating teams like Fulham that is the first thing that a team like us has to have in order to challenge for the League title.

And about Henry, I can't possibly imagine where that eyeroll crap comes in. The first reason why we are not in the chase is because Henry has had a damn poor year. And the reason for that (one of the main ones at least) is because he has worn himself out playing lameass int'l games against Bosnia and fkkkkin Herzogovina and the rest of the idiots.

I think you must have me confused with somebody else on that one.

I really don't see your logic. Yes, it would have been good to win at Fulham and we really needed the points. BUT, as mentioned earlier, the next 3 matches over 9 days were Spurs at home (a must win), Porto away (another must win/draw to secure a spot in the next round of CL, which will help bring in money to pay down debt of the new stadium and allow a larger transfer kitty), and Chelsea away (a must win/draw to keep from losing to much ground and staying in the hunt for a top Prem position). How Fulham is more important than preparing for that string of matches over a short time is beyond me. As Rick mentioned, Wenger did what he thought was best at the time (and considering the upcoming fixtures) but lost out. Plus, Fulham were actually on their game that night and you have to give them credit for playing well.

The team are young (average age against Chelsea was 23!!) and there are growing pains as players adjust to the new team, gain experience, etc. Some of the matches that we lost or drew were down to bad luck IMO. How many times have we hit the woodwork this season? It is too many to count. Also, how many times over the years have we played against lesser teams and their keepers had the night of their lives. This is what football is all about. Sometimes things just don't go your way. Other times they do. The Unbeaten Season wouldn't have happened except for a number of lucky events that year. Not that the team wasn't great, but there were times when we all thought the run was over and luck or chance prevailed.