The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[TKORL]

Yep, it's true.

Pelé 'had great players surrounding him' and Maradona didn't.


While I can't comment on the overall quality difference between the teams, apart from Diego, the 1986 Arg was clearly no team of jokers.

[621380]

yes, in the early 80s but def not the late 80s and clearly no the early 90s

if we count the uefa coefficient in the 80s

i think england was the strongest leaque in the 80s..(ignore the ban)..italy was tied with germany from 1980/81-1989/90 i think second in europe....the combinated uefa coefficients is nearly indentical in this 10 years between italy and germany..spain close behind 4th ranked i think....

italy 134590 points...germany 134030 points

1980/81 italy 6th...germany 7th
1981/82 italy 13th..germany 6th
1982/83 italy 9th...germany 3th
1983/84 italy 2th...germany 15th
1984/85 italy 2th...germany 3th
1985/86 italy 5th...germany 1th
1986/87 italy 2th...germany 5th
1987/88 italy 9th...germany 5th
1988/89 italy 3th...germany 5th
1989/90 italy 1th...germany 2th

[kingkong1]

While I can't comment on the overall quality difference between the teams, apart from Diego, the 1986 Arg was clearly no team of jokers.I know very well that, and I hope you haven't failed to notice that that was an ironic 'strategic' remark on my part...

[Tribune]

But we're talking about the league genius

UEFA Cup (scores are aggregate)

1988/89
Napoli 5-4 VfB Struttgart

1989/90
Juventus 3-1 Fiorentina

1990/91
Inter 2-1 Roma

1991/92
Torino 2-2 Ajax (Ajax win on away goals)
Genoa make the semifinals

1992/93
Juventus 6-1 Borussia Dortmund

1993/94
Inter 2-0 Casino Salzburg
Cagliari make the semifinals

1994/95
Parma 2-1 Juventus

Champions League

1984/85
Juventus 1-0 Liverpool

1988/89
Milan 4-0 Steaua Bucuresti

1989/90
Milan 1-0 Benfica

1991/92
Barcelona 1-0 Sampdoria (aet)

1992/93
Marseille 1-0 Milan

1993/94
Milan 4-0 Barcelona

1994/95
Ajax 1-0 Milan

Cup Winners Cup

1983/84
Juventus 2-1 Porto

1988/89
Barcelona 2-0 Sampdoria

1989/90
Sampdoria 2-0 Anderlecht

1992/93
Parma 3-1 Royal Antwerp

1993/94
Arsenal 1-0 Parma

UEFA Super Cup

1984
Juventus 2-0 Liverpool

1989
Milan 2-1 Barcelona

1990
Milan 3-1 Sampdoria

1993
Parma 2-1 Milan

So, during the time period, it is more than evident that the Serie A was the best league in the world and possibly the best during any time period
The list doesn't even include Juventus 1996 and 2 other Italians making the CL finals (decided it would stretch out too far)

So from 1984-1995 when Serie A was at its height, they won:
4 Champions League (runner up: 3 times), 6 UEFA Cup titles (runner up: 4 times, 3 times all Italian final), 3 Cup Winners Cup and 4 UEFA Supercups (2 all-Italian finals)

One suggestion : the titles won by Serie A between 1985 and 1990 and immediately afterwards cannot be used to proclaim the superiority of its league because their toughest competitor, who previously dominated ECC, was not competing anymore, due to the Heysel ban and, after the ban was lifted, the strength of their teams was seriously affected by this event. Obviously, it was going to be easier for serie A to win more awards when its most serious rival was so severely hurt.

While those trophies are rightfully yours, because the teams winning them displayed a lot of quality, to use them in order to shove down everyone's throat not just that Serie A was the best in the world at that time (which probably was) but THE BEST OF ALL TIME shows a total lack of modesty and not very much fair-play.

PS : A league packed with stars does not automatically implies the best in the world. Between 1972-1985, the "stars" from Premiership could be counted on fingers, yet their teams won no less than 7 ECC, 1 Cup Winner's Cup and 4 UEFA Cups towards a return of 1 ECC, 2 Cup Winner's Cup and 1 UEFA cup for italian teams during the same time period.
Also Premiership was runner up 2 times (in 1975 and 1985) in ECC, 3 times in C2 and once in C3.
This makes a return of 12 european trophies and 6 runners up and this with mostly domestic talent and with no other league excluded from the competition. During that time, Premiership did not have even half the number of the "craques" which played in Brazil between 1958 and 1970, and yet they dominated european cups like very few other leagues managed to in the history of european football.

And, btw, Maradona played in Serie A between 1984 and 1991. During his first 4 seasons there, Serie A teams managed to get only FOUR spots in the semifinals of the european competitions.
There are : Juventus in 1984/1985 (which they will win), Atalanta in Cup Winner's Cup in 1987/1988 (they lost in the semifinals to Mechelen) and Internazionale Milano in the UEFA Cup in 1985 and 1986 (they lost both times in semifinals to Real Madrid).
The other times, italian times were eliminated by :

In Champion's League :

Juventus 1986 - Barcelona
Verona 1986 - Juventus
Juventus 1987 - Real Madrid
Napoli 1988 - Real Madrid

Cup Winner's Cup :

Roma 1985 - Bayern Munchen
Sampdoria 1986 - Benfica
Roma 1987 - Real Zaragoza
Atalanta 1988 - KV Mechelen

UEFA Cup :

Fiorentina 1985 - Anderlecht
Internazionale 1985 - Real Madrid

Milan 1986 - KSV Waregem
Inter 1986 - Real Madrid

Fiorentina 1987 - Boavista
Napoli 1987 - Toulouse
Internazionale 1987 - IFK Goteborg
Torino 1987 - FC Tirol Innsbruck

Milan 1988 - Espanyol
Juventus 1988 - Panathinaikos
Internazionale 1988 - Espanyol
Verona - Werder Bremen

You've made into the semifinals only four times out of 21... with English teams out of the race between 1985 and 1988.
Normally, that's a decent record, not bad, but not very good either, but when you call yourself "best league of ALL TIMES", that is piss poor.
So maybe you shouldn't be so full of yourself.

[Kulspruta]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7549/gentilecx4.jpg
What happened to Zico's shirt? Did the big boys do it?

Cmon, even if you're incredibly bias against any form of football not from your home nation... umm I mean Brazilian, you have to admit Pele was lucky that he didn't have to stand up against a warrior like that.:cool:
Boy, what the hell are you still doing here? You should go and watch the videos from the sixties before being this assertive, cuz yet again you prove you've never seen Pelé on the pitch. As if saying that his style was not enthralling and that the league he was playing in was crap is not enough, you also completely ignore the fact that most of his opponents had direct orders to cripple him. Did you watch the world cups at least? Jesus!

[jerrito]

Italy BTW never won anything with those super-defenses: its big victory in WCs was with the 1982 offensive team of Paolo Rossi...

:eek:

You don't mean that do you? Seriously? Dino Zoff held the World Record for minutes without being scored against largely because of the men in front of him at Juve and the national team. Scirea was arguably the equal of Baresi, Gentile simply locked strikers down, and Cabrini was one of the best in a long line of great Italian left backs. I recommend you do yourself a favor and do some reading on something other than Brazilian football before you post next, since you seem to require the same of others on the subject of Pele.

[kingkong1]

Jerrito,

Historically, Italy ALWAYS devoted itself to defense, but in 1982 what really decided were the 3 goals by Paolo Rossi vs Brazil and his 1st goal in the final against Germany...

If it weren't for Italy in modern times [from 82 on, i.e the last 1/4 of a century] assuming at least once in life an offensive attitude, it would have only won titles [2006], gone through quarterfinals [98], disputed semifinals [90] & protagonized finals [94], ALL OF THEM mediocherly ending in PKs and OTs.

I need no 'reading' for that: I lived that.

And even suffering with Brazil's defeat at the Sarriá, I do miss that brave Italian team that once chose to send its own 'glorious' catenaccio tradition to the depths of hell!...

And win - in a genuine way - a World Cup title to its country.

The rest is just Italian distemper :cool: ...

[jerrito]

Jerrito,

Historically, Italy ALWAYS devoted itself to defense, but in 1982 what really decided were the 3 goals by Paolo Rossi vs Brazil and his 1st goal in the final against Germany...

If it weren't for Italy in modern times [from 82 on, i.e the last 1/4 of a century] assuming at least once in life an offensive attitude, it would have only won titles [2006], gone through quarterfinals [98], disputed semifinals [90] & protagonized finals [94], ALL OF THEM mediocherly ending in PKs and OTs.

I need no 'reading' for that: I lived that.

And even suffering with Brazil's defeat at the Sarriá, I do miss that brave Italian team that once chose to send its own 'glorious' catenaccio tradition to the depths of hell!...

The rest is just Italian distemper :cool: ...

Of course we needed goals in 82. But look at the first round for Italy. 3 draws in 3 games I believe. We rely on defense and counter quite a bit. That is part of the Italian "method". Besides, how many World Titles would Brazil had if it could put together a more than mediocre defense?;) Perhaps appreciating it a bit more would help your side. You just seem to discount any nation other than Brazil in ALL of your arguments, which makes all of them pointless in my opinion. To sum it all up...

Brazil - Always great offensively

Italy - Always great defensively

What is your point???

[Tribune]

:eek:

You don't mean that do you? Seriously? Dino Zoff held the World Record for minutes without being scored against largely because of the men in front of him at Juve and the national team. Scirea was arguably the equal of Baresi, Gentile simply locked strikers down, and Cabrini was one of the best in a long line of great Italian left backs. I recommend you do yourself a favor and do some reading on something other than Brazilian football before you post next, since you seem to require the same of others on the subject of Pele.


I think you are a little bit confused. First, What Zoff did in 1972/1974 (since his record dates from those years) is irellevant for what happened in 1982 (the event KK was refering to).
Second, none of the three you mentioned did actually play at international level when Zoff established that record... neither Scirea, nor Gentile or Cabrini.
So, I don't see what exactly were you trying to prove by bringing that example... :confused:
Besides, when refering to particular events, refering to specific styles of play of each country has absolutely no meaning...
For instance, in 1986, the best defense of the tournament was... the brazilian one, conceding ONE goal during the entire tournament, after 402 minutes of play, against a top-class opponent - France of Platini.
In 1958, again, Brazil had the best defense in that tournament, conceding only after 369 minutes of play against the most offensive team of the tournament, France of Kopa and Fontaine.
If you want to talk about great italian defending, we can talk about WC 1990, where Zenga holds the record for a clean sheet, with 517 minutes without conceding.
The second is Banks with 442 minutes in 1966.
Brazil also did a very good job in defense in 1986 or 1958, conceding after 402 and 369 minutes.
Italy 90 or Brazil 86 also conceded only 2, respectively one goal during the tournament. England in 1966 conceded only 3 goals, Brazil in 1958 only 4.
Holland in 1974 conceded thrice, West Germany only 4 times.
Brazil in 1978 conceded only thrice in 7 games, Argentina only 4 times.
Brazil in 1994 conceded only 3 goals in 7 games, while the super-strong italian defense (you know, Baresi, Maldini&Co) had 5 goals scored against them.
In 1974, Brazil conceded again 4 goals in 7 games.

Italy also conceded 6 goals in 1978 and 8 in 1970.

Returning to 1982, that italian defense with Scirea, Cabrini, Gentile and Collovati conceded 6 goals during the entire tournament, 5 of them in the first 5 games, which is just as many as the so much bad-mouthed brazilian defense from 1982 (which it is said that it sucked...)

In fact, between 1958 and 1994, Italy managed to play at least 5 games in 1970, 1978, 1982, 1990 and 1994.
In those tournaments, they conceded 8 goals, 6 goals, 6 goals, 2 goals and respectively 5 goals. So practically only ONCE did the italian defense allowed less than 5 goals against them.
Brazil at the same time managed to play at least 5 games in 1958, 1962, 1970, 1974, 1978, 1982, 1986, 1994.
The number of goals conceded were 4 goals, 5 goals, 7 goals, 4 goals, 3 goals, 5 goals, 1 goal, 3 goals.
The overall record of the italian defense : 34 games, 27 goals conceded. GR : 0.79
Brazil's overall record : 49 games, 32 goals. GR : 0.65

So, the italian defense wasn't exactly that rock solid as it is generally believed and Brazil has some things to boast of even in defense, not just in the offense.
The problem was that, on severall occasions, the brazilian offensive displays were so stellar that it overshadowed everything else...

[Tribune]

Of course we needed goals in 82. But look at the first round for Italy. 3 draws in 3 games I believe. We rely on defense and counter quite a bit. That is part of the Italian "method". Besides, how many World Titles would Brazil had if it could put together a more than mediocre defense?;) Perhaps appreciating it a bit more would help your side. You just seem to discount any nation other than Brazil in ALL of your arguments, which makes all of them pointless in my opinion. To sum it all up...

Brazil - Always great offensively

Italy - Always great defensively

What is your point???


Read the post above and please review this statement. At WC Level, Brazil has been superior to Italy defensively (speaking for period 1958-1994)... To figure out this, someone just need to look past the stereotypes attached to each nation and analyse their campaigns.

PS : In 1982, you did not "rely on defense and counter quite a bit". You just sucked in the first group stage, qualified with a lot of luck due to goal difference but, fortunately, you woke up in the next stages and put some great displays especially against Brazil, Poland and West Germany (when you did play offensive).
The statement that Italy - always great defensively is seriously overrating. Maybe in Serie A. At WC level, it does not show.
Brazil never had 8 goals scored against them like Italy had in 1970, for instance.

[jerrito]

Tribune,

I was making two separate points about 1) Zoff and 2) The 3 main players in front of him.

1. Dino Zoff held the World Record for minutes without being scored against largely because of the men in front of him at Juve and the national team.

2. Scirea was arguably the equal of Baresi, Gentile simply locked strikers down, and Cabrini was one of the best in a long line of great Italian left backs.

What I was getting at in all of this is that when Brazil has is unbalanced and almost exclusively offensive, and when Italy does the same defensively, neither wins the tournament.

And Maradona's greatness should be measured against the defenses of Serie A, not Italy's national team, of course.

[Tribune]

Tribune,

I was making two separate points about 1) Zoff and 2) The 3 main players in front of him.

1. Dino Zoff held the World Record for minutes without being scored against largely because of the men in front of him at Juve and the national team.

2. Scirea was arguably the equal of Baresi, Gentile simply locked strikers down, and Cabrini was one of the best in a long line of great Italian left backs.

What I was getting at in all of this is that when Brazil has is unbalanced and almost exclusively offensive, and when Italy does the same defensively, neither wins the tournament.


You were replying though to this statement "Italy BTW never won anything with those super-defenses: its big victory in WCs was with the 1982 offensive team of Paolo Rossi...".

And technically King Kong is correct because you never had too many of those ON THE PITCH. Only ON PAPER. The only time when the fabled italian defense lived up to the expectations was 1990... and you failed to win.
The last WC changed this a little bit, but for me this is not relevant simply because the last WC was a competition defense vs defense, not defense vs attack as it should have been. The lack of any offensive brilliance during the previous WC was at an all-time low, so practically there was very little challenges for the defenders.
I suspected you made two separate points, but it was a "shot far off the target", because it has absolutely no relevance for what KK was saying.
Besides, Brazil played defensively a la squadra azzura in 1974 or 1978 and won nothing, but they did it in 1994. So it wasn't exactly always exclusively offensive.

And Maradona's greatness should be measured against the defenses of Serie A, not Italy's national team, of course.

The best defenders of Serie A were italians.

(This is for general consumption, not directed at you Jerrito)The issues here are more complex than simply declaring than one league is better than the other, etc. For instance, the biggest success of Platini or Maradona came abroad, more exactly in the super-tough Serie A, not at home, in their "inferior" domestic leagues.A Maradona or Platini won close to nothing in France and Argentina.

[jerrito]

I'm not sure I understand your last point. Of course those defenders were Italian. Again, my point is what does the Italian national team as a whole have to do with the greatness of Diego Armando Maradona??? I can understand most of the other arguments. But to say that he was not as good as Pele because Diego played against less skilled defenders is just not accurate in my opinion.

Off topic Tribune - your knowledge of statistics and the history of the game is impressive.

[Tribune]

I'm not sure I understand your last point. Of course those defenders were Italian. Again, my point is what does the Italian national team as a whole have to do with the greatness of Diego Armando Maradona??? I can understand most of the other arguments. But to say that he was not as good as Pele because Diego played against less skilled defenders is just not accurate in my opinion.

Off topic Tribune - your knowledge of statistics and the history of the game is impressive.

Again, my point is what does the Italian national team as a whole have to do with the greatness of Diego Armando Maradona???

Particularly with Diego, nothing. My argument was triggered by the fact that you seemed to suggest in your first post that Italy 1982 was a defensive monster (which it was not) and that you stated directly in your second one that Italy was always great defensively, while Brazil had mediocre defenses, which is a fallacious generalization.
In fact, the italian defenses quite underperformed at WC level. The brazilian defenses were just as good, but they are extremely underrated, simply because they were overshadowed by their attacks. For instance, about 1958-1962, who was going to talk about the defensive prowess of a Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos, Bellini or De Sordi, when you had a Pele, Garrincha or Didi who dazzled the world with their offensive skills ?
To summarize, my point was that you were exaggerating the strength of Italy's defenses and the weakness of the Brazilian ones, starting from their prefered style of playing (brazilians preferred to attack, that's true... but they could also defend very well).

But to say that he was not as good as Pele because Diego played against less skilled defenders is just not accurate in my opinion

I never said this. In fact, I try to avoid such overall generalizations. But KingKong's claim was mostly a DEFENSIVE (:p) reaction against all the NUMEROUS claims made before that Maradona played against better opponents than Pele. Which is bullshitting. The one who wants (seriously, not just taking the piss) to determine whose opponents were superior is undertaking a task who will have absolutely no valid outcome.

[Diego Maradona]

Need I say more

[JumpinJackFlash]

And, of course, JumpinJackFlash is the epithome of impartiality, a true model to follow for the incredibly biased fans around... :rolleyes:

I can see how me thinking that Maradona is the greatest, a player from a country that I've never set foot in isn't objective at all, compared to somebody from Rio saying Pele is the greatest. But what can I do you know? haha.

By the way, you forgot to reply on the Romania/Italy match for Euro 2008, are you excited to be playing against a country who's league is of such a low, insignificant level?

[TKORL]

I know very well that, and I hope you haven't failed to notice that that was an ironic 'strategic' remark on my part...

Of course, I'm just noting that because the argument is often that Maradona led a team of mediocre players to the world cup.


However, I do disagree on your comment that Pele's teammates cited as great players don't show up on Top 10 lists. Which one of them would you put at top 10 of all time? Even if you create a team with four players from top 30 players of all time, it makes a very strong team.

[comme]

And I proved to you there was not the slightest difference btw them and the Brittish or English I 'failed' to cite (at that time they all looked 'japanese' to the world's eyes)... If I cited him he could not be unknown to me.

You originally cited N Ireland and claimed it to be Britain, a team that does not even exist.

It's like me posting up the Paraguay squad from the last World Cup, and saying "Look S America are rubbish, I've never heard of their players".

That England team of the 80s achieved as much as the Brazil of Zico etc (ie sod all).

But...Pat 'Who?' Jennings being superior to Fillol, Barbosa, Mazurkiewicz, Gilmar, Amadeo Carrizo is one of the best jokes I've ever heard in this whole Forum...

Laugh away. If you haven't heard of one of the world's great keeper it's you who is the joker.

Jackie could have not been the most technical CD of all times, but El Pibe wouldn't survive his first dribble against him in the 'Goal of the Century' (that you overrate just because it was on top of always overrated and always humbled England)...

Who is over-rating it? I haven't even mentioned it.

[Tribune]

I can see how me thinking that Maradona is the greatest, a player from a country that I've never set foot in isn't objective at all, compared to somebody from Rio saying Pele is the greatest. But what can I do you know? haha.



You don't have to be from the same country for that. There are many people who never set foot in Brazil and their adoration for Ronaldo beats everything I heard from native brazilians. Do a check for the user "Ronaldooooo" and you will see. The level of bias is determined by the way you make your point, not where are you from. The fact that even the pro-Maradona people around here didn't have the courage to support your abberations that players from SA moved to Europe because they wanted to win the ECC it's quite suggestive (yes, even Bosterosoy, the poster who praised your pro-Maradona plagiarism :rolleyes: - check the last pages of the Zidane/Riquelme to see his opinion on what determines a south-american to go to Europe : the shine of $$$).

By the way, you forgot to reply on the Romania/Italy match for Euro 2008, are you excited to be playing against a country who's league is of such a low, insignificant level?

That's because I don't actually see the point. In 2004 you did not make it in the quarterfinals past Denmark and Sweden, in 2002 you lost to the "mighty" South Korea, but you won in 2006. This is football, you win some, you lose some. In 2008, Italy will play against Romania. You beat us in 2000, but you lost against us in 1983 (you know, that time when Serie A was the pinnacle of club football according to your statements :rolleyes:), when we shut the door of the Euro in the face of the newly crowned world champions. So what ? Assuming you will win, what's the big deal ?

[kingkong1]

I can see how me thinking that Maradona is the greatest, a player from a country that I've never set foot in isn't objective at all, compared to... ...somebody from Rio saying Pele is the greatest. But what can I do, you know? haha.JF, pardon me, please!...

(& this post serves to some of El Pibe's fans in this Forum)...

But (specially by being an Italian living in Inghilterra, the Boot's eternal rival, against whose mediochre defense El Pibe scored his 'Hand of God' and 'Century's' goals, and Italians happening to be even more patriotic and fanatic about football than the Argentinians themselves) - let's concede:

At the bottom of your heart, you never REALLY 'thought' Maradona was the greatest ever!...

Maradona was just a big historical pretext Italians found in order to see if, AT LAST, they could once and for all get rid of the ghost of the Big Black Guy that destroyed them in 1970 .

You'll respond: why would we back Maradona since he was an Argie who beat us in a WC at our home, and even swore at us after all we gave him?...

As if nobody knew Maradona's granma was Napolitan & had Italian blood in her veins, as most of the Argentinians!...

Maradona image in Italy is of the 'daring immigrant', the 'heroic poor cousin' - an 'oriundo'! - who left his 'province' and came to try life in 'original' homeland.

And, mainly because of that peninsular blood, he overcame all difficulties, and finally, SUCCEEDED in the Meca of defensive football.

Thus, rewriting the biblical story of the dear buon figlio qui a la casa torna...

Maradona was a retarded bomb* Italians smartly tried to 'plant' at the very craddle of The Brazilian Beast - South America - in order to dethrone it...

And since he was 'an Argie', nothing could seem less 'unsuspicious' on the Italians part...

In short, El Pibe was used - specially by the Italians - as The Last White Hope!...

Exactly in the way Muhammad Ali referred to when a representative of the status quo - opportunistically elected by the establishment - showed up to dethrone him...

And in that 'election' - they even used the Internet...

And, worse, tried to shift the balls, by saying the 'establishment' guy was Pelé!...

They failed.

Pelé's myth has never been more solidly installed than today in the post of 'the man yet to be beaten'.

More and more people get back to Pelé's, Maradona's & other great players' records - only logic and non-biased alternative way to resolve ANY 'dispute'...

And see by themselves that the 'best player of the world' CANNOT BY NO MEANS have 4 World Cup titles & 1000 goals less than his most immediate adversary...

As if it were little to just directly compare in footage the absolute difference of category between them...
__________________________________________________________________
*RETARDED BOMB:

"(...) A POORLY TOLD, or otherwise untenable, JOKE which, once told, lays there like an unexploded bomb while the jokester prays someone can come along to defuse the situation (...)" - Urban Dictionary