The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[JumpinJackFlash]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7549/gentilecx4.jpg
What happened to Zico's shirt? Did the big boys do it?

Cmon, even if you're incredibly bias against any form of football not from your home nation... umm I mean Brazilian, you have to admit Pele was lucky that he didn't have to stand up against a warrior like that.:cool:

[Tribune]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7549/gentilecx4.jpg
What happened to Zico's shirt? Did the big boys do it?



1. Gentile annihilated Maradona as well during that tournament and even to a greater extent than Zico, who at least managed to pull out one of the greatest assists ever seen in a WC, while Diego did nothing against him.

2. When Maradona played in Italy, Gentile himself was past his best, which was in Juventus, BEFORE 1984.

3. Actually the 60s witnessed someone like Nobby Stiles (among others), whose style of play consisting of physically abusing his opponents. Gentile only continued the tradition.

Cmon, even if you're incredibly bias against any form of football not from your home nation... umm I mean Brazilian, you have to admit Pele was lucky that he didn't have to stand up against a warrior like that.:cool:

And, of course, JumpinJackFlash is the epithome of impartiality, a true model to follow for the incredibly biased fans around... :rolleyes:

[comme]

Well, I tried to find out (in that 'famous' Brittish side of 1986):

1 GK Pat Jennings
2 DF Jimmy Nicholl
3 DF Mal Donaghy
4 DF John O'Neill
5 DF Alan McDonald
6 MF David McCreery
7 FW Steve Penney
8 MF Sammy McIlroy
9 FW Jimmy Quinn
10 FW Norman Whiteside
11 FW Ian Stewart
12 GK Jim Platt
13 GK Philip Hughes
14 FW Gerry Armstrong
15 MF Nigel Worthington
16 MF Paul Ramsey 3
17 FW Colin Clarke
18 DF John McClelland
19 FW Billy Hamilton
20 DF Bernard McNally
21 MF David Campbell
22 GK Mark Caughey

Will anybody tell me who are they?...
___________________________________________________________
***With a few honourable exceptions of course...

There is no such thing as the "British side". The squad that you have listed is Northern Ireland, not England.

[bosterosoy]

A theme for you to fancy with in your dreams tonight:

As far as forwards & midfields, the difference btw 80's/90's Italian Serie A and Pele's era is simply enormous: Di Stéfano, Didi, Gérson, Zito, Bobby Charlton, Breitner, Stanley Matthews, Garrincha, Müeller, Tostão, Rivelino, Jairzinho etc etc are way, but WAY, above your mids anf forwards...

I agree the midfielders were better during Pele's era, but to say that it is simply enormous is a joke. Also, the list of players that I made were players that Maradona played EVERY YEAR IN THE SAME LEAGUE. Some of the players you mentioned Pele played like once or twice in World Cup and then in the American League. Also, most of the players mentioned are taken from a certain list made by Pele of the top current living players of all time (as much as a joke that the list may or may not have been

As far as the defenders Pelé if not regularly but significantly faced, that difference is not that much: it's just huge.

Compare those real hevyweights with your (nothing but good) list, in which we can easily dispense with as 'just regular' the players I stressed in red above:

Yashin/ Meier/ Banks - Carlos Alberto/D. Santos - Bobby Moore/ Piazza - Beckenbauer - Figueroa - N. Santos etc etc (there are many more, but those are more than enough)...

1) The difference in the defenders isn't huge. Maradona went up against some of the best defenses. Milan's defense in the late 80s was pretty much the entire Italian defense that went so many minutes without giving up a goal. The only difference was the goalkeeper and a defender.

2) How many of the defenders you listed did Pele play on a regular basis?? You are coming up with all these players that Pele played against but most of them fall under 2 categories: 1) Never played against them on a regular basis or 2) Never played against them on a regular basis until they were in the NASL. Seriously how many times did Pele go up against Yashin? 1, 2 times maybe. Definitely less than the times Maradona went up against Zenga, Dino Zoff or Andoni Zubizarreta etc etc

Besides saying that Passarela & Maradona belonged to the same generation and both faced each other in Italy & at their peak (Passarela's got to his peak in the late 70's/ early 80's, Maradona in the late 80's) shows at least that either you're totally uninformed or that you're trying to throw sand in those guys' here well-opened eyes :cool: ...

when did I say they belonged in the same generation? Next time don't try and throw words into my mouth how about that? Maradona. You asked for all the players that were playing in Serie A. I dont think you understand how great the Serie A was back then. Look at that list of players. The majority are some of the greatest ever, even considered so by Pele himself.

As for Diego v. Passarella, they played each other on NUMEROUS occasions. Maradona was in Napoli starting in 1984. Passarella was in Serie from '82-'88. So that right there is 4 years. THEN, they played in Argentina at the same time from '76-'82. And during the time in Argentina, Maradona was still able to lead Boca Juniors to 1) the league title and 2) an incredible 3-1 win over Passarella's River Plate that will never be forgotten due to Maradona's incredible goal in that game

I think your the one that is misinformed. Your listing all these defenders that played during Pele's era yet he never played with most of them on a consistent basis. The great players in the Brasilian league during Pele's era does not come close to the amount of great players that were playing in the Serie A in Maradona's era

Also, this is for JJF. Gentile was a beast and definitely better than the defender I am going to mention. But the defender I'm mentioning was an annihilator (Maradona can attest to that as well):

http://futbol.sportec.es/imagenes/fotos/goikoetxea.gif
Andoni Goikoetxea Olaskoaga

[bosterosoy]

3. Actually the 60s witnessed someone like Nobby Stiles (among others), whose style of play consisting of physically abusing his opponents. Gentile only continued the tradition.
The difference that I think some people, especially kingkong1, are missing is that most of those players (like Nobby Stiles) were not defenders who Pele had to play against on a consistent basis.

[kingkong1]

There is no such thing as the "British side". The squad that you have listed is Northern Ireland, not England.Pasted it wrong from the site, sorry: I myself was in a hurry to sleep too!...

What's the big difference, though?...

Look at that 'formidable' English defense that took so complacently the 'goal of the century"!...

GK Peter Shilton
2 DF Gary Stevens
3 DF Kenny Sansom
4 MF Glenn Hoddle
5 DF Alvin Martin
6 DF Terry Butcher
7 MF Bryan Robson
8 MF Ray Wilkins
9 FW Mark Hateley
10 FW Gary Lineker
11 MF Chris Waddle
12 DF Viv Anderson
13 GK Chris Woods
14 DF Terry Fenwick
15 DF Gary A. Stevens
16 MF Peter Reid
17 MF Trevor Steven
18 MF Steve Hodge
19 FW John Barnes
20 FW Peter Beardsley
21 FW Kerry Dixon
22 GK Gary Bailey

In that whole team there literally ain't one single name to be remembered (specially defenders): maybe Shilton? Maybe Barnes or Lineker? (good players but not defensemen)...
England? Northern Ireland?...

All 'flour of the same bag'...:

Now (again) compare to the 'task' Pelé had to face:

1GKGordon Banks2DFKeith Newton3DFTerry Cooper4MFAlan Mullery5DFBrian Labone6DFBobby Moore7FWFrancis Lee8MFAlan Ball9MFBobby Charlton10FWGeoff Hurst11FWMartin Peters12GKPeter Bonetti13GKAlex Stepney14DFTommy Wright15DFNobby Stiles16MFEmlyn Hughes17DFJack Charlton18MFNorman Hunter19MFColin Bell20FWPeter Osgood21FWAllan Clarke22FWJeff Astle

Even Italy of that time was more respectable than in your adored 80's:

1 GK Enrico Albertosi
2 DF Tarcisio Burgnich
3 DF Giacinto Facchetti
4 DF Fabrizio Poletti
5 DF Pierluigi Cera
6 MF Ugo Ferrante
7 MF Comunardo Niccolai
8 MF Roberto Rosato
9 MF Giorgio Puia
10 DF Mario Bertini
11 FW Luigi Riva
12 GK Dino Zoff
13 FW Angelo Domenghini
14 MF Gianni Rivera
15 MF Sandro Mazzola
16 MF Giancarlo De Sisti
17 GK Lido Vieri
18 DF Antonio Juliano
19 FW Sergio Gori
20 FW Roberto Boninsegna
21 DF Giuseppe Furino
22 FW Pierino Prati

[kingkong1]

Maradona could have saved the 'God's Hand' to a better adversary!...

[Tribune]

The difference that I think some people, especially kingkong1, are missing is that most of those players (like Nobby Stiles) were not defenders who Pele had to play against on a consistent basis.

Ok... But I see you throw me a statement like " Seriously how many times did Pele go up against Yashin? 1, 2 times maybe. Definitely less than the times Maradona went up against Zenga, Dino Zoff or Andoni Zubizarreta etc etc".

If "not playing against them on a regular basis" is a downside, then what the hell is Zoff doing on your list of keepers "Maradona had to play against" ?
Zoff retired in 1983, before Maradona arrived to Serie A, and the only time when they played against each other was that fateful encounter from WC 1982. So, it was only once.
And, btw, Zubizaretta played against Maradona on a regular basis only for a brief period between 1982 and 1984.

[comme]

Pasted it wrong from the site, sorry: I myself was in a hurry to sleep too!...

What's the big difference, though?...

Look at that 'formidable' English defense that took so complacently the 'goal of the century"!...

GK Peter Shilton
2 DF Gary Stevens
3 DF Kenny Sansom
4 MF Glenn Hoddle
5 DF Alvin Martin
6 DF Terry Butcher
7 MF Bryan Robson
8 MF Ray Wilkins
9 FW Mark Hateley
10 FW Gary Lineker
11 MF Chris Waddle
12 DF Viv Anderson
13 GK Chris Woods
14 DF Terry Fenwick
15 DF Gary A. Stevens
16 MF Peter Reid
17 MF Trevor Steven
18 MF Steve Hodge
19 FW John Barnes
20 FW Peter Beardsley
21 FW Kerry Dixon
22 GK Gary Bailey

In that whole team there literally ain't one single name to be remembered (specially defenders): maybe Shilton? Maybe Barnes or Lineker? (good players but not defensemen)...
England? Northern Ireland?...

All 'flour of the same bag'...:


I fail to see what point you are really trying to make, so I'm not going to get into this debate.

If you can't tell the difference between England, Northern Ireland and Britain there is no hope. That you consider Bryan Robson, Peter Shilton, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc as such forgettable players shows a complete lack of knowledge or regard for the game in Europe.

[kingkong1]

And what the big deal about Maradona (quantitavely) facing 'more regularly' Italian defenses?...

First of all not all (as a matter of fact, not even that many) Italian clubs of that time displayed fuoriclassi like Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, etc...

The fact that the 80's in Italy was more defense-oriented (what for me is a sign of self-declared weakness) does not mean that its defenders were qualitatively better than a Faccheti, a Burgnich, a Dino Zoff, a Trapattoni.

It's just a conception of game and an unfortunately reactionary & conservative one.

Italy BTW never won anything with those super-defenses: its big victory in WCs was with the 1982 offensive team of Paolo Rossi...

[kingkong1]

xxx

[kingkong1]

I fail to see what point you are really trying to make, so I'm not going to get into this debate.

If you can't tell the difference between England, Northern Ireland and Britain there is no hope. That you consider Bryan Robson, Peter Shilton, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc as such forgettable players shows a complete lack of knowledge or regard for the game in Europe.Pasted it wrong, it's explained above, and you conveniently disconsidered it, since that was the only and desperate 'argument' that you could find in order to 'back' yours...

Besides, Bryan Robson, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle were MFs and FWs and we were talking about defensive lines (Lineker & Barnes were even considered by me as 'good players').

My point was (and that you also ignored): compared to Banks, Bobby Moore, Jack & Bobby Charlton, do you have any doubt they are more than forgettable?...

If you dont recognize that, the 'complete lack of knowledge' is simply yours...

You saw, but pretended you 'didn't see' that I was stressing my point more on the English defense (since the theme now are 'the defenses at Maradona's/ Pelé's times'): the laughable Stevens, Samson, Martin & Butcher...

[bosterosoy]

Italy BTW never won anything with those super-defenses: its big victory in WCs was with the 1982 offensive team of Paolo Rossi...
But we're talking about the league genius

UEFA Cup (scores are aggregate)

1988/89
Napoli 5-4 VfB Struttgart

1989/90
Juventus 3-1 Fiorentina

1990/91
Inter 2-1 Roma

1991/92
Torino 2-2 Ajax (Ajax win on away goals)
Genoa make the semifinals

1992/93
Juventus 6-1 Borussia Dortmund

1993/94
Inter 2-0 Casino Salzburg
Cagliari make the semifinals

1994/95
Parma 2-1 Juventus

Champions League

1984/85
Juventus 1-0 Liverpool

1988/89
Milan 4-0 Steaua Bucuresti

1989/90
Milan 1-0 Benfica

1991/92
Barcelona 1-0 Sampdoria (aet)

1992/93
Marseille 1-0 Milan

1993/94
Milan 4-0 Barcelona

1994/95
Ajax 1-0 Milan

Cup Winners Cup

1983/84
Juventus 2-1 Porto

1988/89
Barcelona 2-0 Sampdoria

1989/90
Sampdoria 2-0 Anderlecht

1992/93
Parma 3-1 Royal Antwerp

1993/94
Arsenal 1-0 Parma

UEFA Super Cup

1984
Juventus 2-0 Liverpool

1989
Milan 2-1 Barcelona

1990
Milan 3-1 Sampdoria

1993
Parma 2-1 Milan

So, during the time period, it is more than evident that the Serie A was the best league in the world and possibly the best during any time period
The list doesn't even include Juventus 1996 and 2 other Italians making the CL finals (decided it would stretch out too far)

So from 1984-1995 when Serie A was at its height, they won:
4 Champions League (runner up: 3 times), 6 UEFA Cup titles (runner up: 4 times, 3 times all Italian final), 3 Cup Winners Cup and 4 UEFA Supercups (2 all-Italian finals)

[kingkong1]

So, during the time period, it is more than evident that the Serie A was the best league in the world and possibly the best during any time periodBold statements like that DO DESERVE to be stressed in bold :rolleyes: ...

How easily the word 'world' is used by a few people to design just a portion of that world, only to fit their 'line of reasoning'...

Also incredible your precise overall view of all 'time periods' having lived only 20 (22?) of the last 130 years of football :D ...

And I'm the 'biased Brazilian'...

[TKORL]

hmm, Baresi, Maldini come to mind. He played in the Serie A which was not only the most competitive league while Maradona there, but was probably the most competitive league ever played. Serie A in the mid 80s to early 90s had some of the best teams ever. The greatest Milan team, the solid Juve teams of Platini and others. They had a few years in which Serie A teams won all 3 cup competition.

Everyone talks about how the Brasilian league was very good when Pele was there and I agree 100%, but the Serie A while Maradona was playing was much better
In the 80s, arguably the strongest league in the world was the English, not the Italian.

[TKORL]

I fail to see what point you are really trying to make, so I'm not going to get into this debate.

If you can't tell the difference between England, Northern Ireland and Britain there is no hope. That you consider Bryan Robson, Peter Shilton, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc as such forgettable players shows a complete lack of knowledge or regard for the game in Europe.
You've completely missed the point.

Apart from Shilton none of those players are defenders. And you prove his point by not citing a single defender as a great player from one of these squads to put on your list of, "Robson, Linneker...etc."

[bosterosoy]

In the 80s, arguably the strongest league in the world was the English, not the Italian.
yes, in the early 80s but def not the late 80s and clearly no the early 90s

[comme]

Pasted it wrong, it's explained above, and you conveniently disconsidered it, since that was the only and desperate 'argument' that you could find in order to 'back' yours...

What argument?

I wasn't making one. I was merely pointing out that looking down a list of N Irish players, and considering them poor as a proof of the English league's status is hardly encouraging, not to mention the fact that according to you Pat Jennings (a goalkeeper far superior to any that Brazil or S America have ever produced) was an unknown to you.

Besides, Bryan Robson, Gary Lineker, Glenn Hoddle were MFs and FWs and we were talking about defensive lines (Lineker & Barnes were even considered by me as 'good players').

My point was (and that you also ignored): compared to Banks, Bobby Moore, Jack & Bobby Charlton, do you have any doubt they are more than forgettable?...

If you dont recognize that, the 'complete lack of knowledge' is simply yours...

You saw, but pretended you 'didn't see' that I was stressing my point more on the English defense (since the theme now are 'the defenses at Maradona's/ Pelé's times'): the laughable Stevens, Samson, Martin & Butcher...

Gary Stevens was a top right back for Everton, one of the best teams in Europe in the 80s.

Kenny Sansom holds the record for the most caps for a left-back and is an Arsenal legend.

Alvin Martin was a cultured centre-half from West Ham, who was a very good player.

Terry Butcher was one of the best central defenders England has produced. Quite possibly superior to Jackie Charlton, who you rated as one of the 4 best CBs of all time.

That is who those players were FYI.

[TKORL]

yes, in the early 80s but def not the late 80s and clearly no the early 90s

What makes you think the English league had a sudden drop off from the early 80s to the late 80s? Maybe from 1988-1990 they were no longer the best, and replaced by Italy in the early 90s, but for the major part of the 1980s, they were the best league in the world.

[kingkong1]

What argument?

I wasn't making oneAnd who said you were 'making one'? I simply used the word 'argument' btw quotation marks...I was merely pointing out that looking down a list of N Irish players...And I proved to you there was not the slightest difference btw them and the Brittish or English I 'failed' to cite (at that time they all looked 'japanese' to the world's eyes)... not to mention the fact that according to you Pat Jennings (a goalkeeper far superior to any that Brazil or S America have ever produced) was an unknown to you.If I cited him he could not be unknown to me.

But...Pat 'Who?' Jennings being superior to Fillol, Barbosa, Mazurkiewicz, Gilmar, Amadeo Carrizo is one of the best jokes I've ever heard in this whole Forum...

Gary Stevens was a top right back for Everton, one of the best teams in Europe in the 80s.
Kenny Sansom holds the record for the most caps for a left-back and is an Arsenal legend.
Alvin Martin was a cultured centre-half from West Ham, who was a very good player.
Terry Butcher was one of the best central defenders England has produced. Quite possibly superior to Jackie Charlton, who you rated as one of the 4 best CBs of all timeJackie could have not been the most technical CD of all times, but El Pibe wouldn't survive his first dribble against him in the 'Goal of the Century' (that you overrate just because it was on top of always overrated and always humbled England)...

With the exception of the respectable English Team of the 66/70s, of course...