The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[bosterosoy]

25. Cannavaro
LMFAO

[Sampe]

I just finished reading all the 34 pages or so. Whew! What a magnificent thread this has been. Special thanks to Tribune for quite a few eye-opening posts.

It's true that in the minds of human beings the world seems to be created the day we are born. At least in my mind, it used to be that way. I was always interested in previous greats, but had enormous difficulties trying to understand how the old timers still thought the players of their time were flat out better in some areas of the game, despite the fact that records won't stand long in any sport where they can be broken. Thus, I drew the conclusion that time distorts their memories (which it does...but not exactly to the extent I thought it did). It didn't matter when retired players commented on lack of technique in modern football - I was confident that players who actually played or even coached at the top for years were living in a dream world and that I, a regular bloke who didn't mind watching top class football from time to time, was the sane one. :o

But now I can see that while I've always understood numbers and records, I've never played enough to understand the finer details of the sport itself. It's also quite possible that I never will - but at least now I can give the players of the past the benefit of the doubt if someone claims they were not only greater, but also better.

I just wished the greats of the 60s and 70s had been born 30 years later so that I could see what they can do with modern footballs....

But to contribute at least something here, I have one very, very minor suggestion to Tribune regarding the athletes' speeds in the 1960s: I think it would be wiser to use a different 100m time as a reference point, since that 9.95 was achieved in Mexico City. There's a reason the 100m, 200m and long jump world records set in that place stood for 15, 17 (or 28 depending on how you count) and 23 years respectively, and that reason is high altitude.

Looking at the world record progression list, you could either use Bob Hayes' 10.06 from 1964 or Jim Hines' 10.03 from 1968. Slightly less impressive, but they do make Pelé even faster compared to his era. ;)

And speaking of Pelé's speed, can you remember where you got that 10.8 seconds for his 100m time? I've only read his book and alas, it only mentioned a more vague result of "under 11 seconds".

[Tribune]

I just finished reading all the 34 pages or so. Whew! What a magnificent thread this has been. Special thanks to Tribune for quite a few eye-opening posts.

It's true that in the minds of human beings the world seems to be created the day we are born. At least in my mind, it used to be that way. I was always interested in previous greats, but had enormous difficulties trying to understand how the old timers still thought the players of their time were flat out better in some areas of the game, despite the fact that records won't stand long in any sport where they can be broken. Thus, I drew the conclusion that time distorts their memories (which it does...but not exactly to the extent I thought it did). It didn't matter when retired players commented on lack of technique in modern football - I was confident that players who actually played or even coached at the top for years were living in a dream world and that I, a regular bloke who didn't mind watching top class football from time to time, was the sane one. :o

But now I can see that while I've always understood numbers and records, I've never played enough to understand the finer details of the sport itself. It's also quite possible that I never will - but at least now I can give the players of the past the benefit of the doubt if someone claims they were not only greater, but also better.

I just wished the greats of the 60s and 70s had been born 30 years later so that I could see what they can do with modern footballs....

But to contribute at least something here, I have one very, very minor suggestion to Tribune regarding the athletes' speeds in the 1960s: I think it would be wiser to use a different 100m time as a reference point, since that 9.95 was achieved in Mexico City. There's a reason the 100m, 200m and long jump world records set in that place stood for 15, 17 (or 28 depending on how you count) and 23 years respectively, and that reason is high altitude.

Looking at the world record progression list, you could either use Bob Hayes' 10.06 from 1964 or Jim Hines' 10.03 from 1968. Slightly less impressive, but they do make Pelé even faster compared to his era. ;)

And speaking of Pelé's speed, can you remember where you got that 10.8 seconds for his 100m time? I've only read his book and alas, it only mentioned a more vague result of "under 11 seconds".

Agreed about Mexico City. But take a look at this thread : http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=618952

There you will see the timings in the 5000 meters race in Montreal in 1976 compared with the results from Atlanta in 1996. It will make an interesting read.
About Pele's timing, I think it was in an old article on Eusebio, who also mentioned Pele's one. It was a long time ago anyway. Regardless, the specific timing is not very relevant on this issue, because footballers' timings have no world record value. Because of this, nobody actually cared (and still do not care) to keep a precise record of such timings, so in general they are quite approximative.
Plus such timings depend on circumstances, form, etc and a timing managed at a certain moment does not mean he is that player's personal best, nor that his personal best can be reproduced all the time in a football match, etc.
This goes for everyone, starting with Stanley Matthews and ending with Lionel Messi.

[Sampe]

Agreed about Mexico City. But take a look at this thread : http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=618952

There you will see the timings in the 5000 meters race in Montreal in 1976 compared with the results from Atlanta in 1996. It will make an interesting read.
Thanks for the link. The times are indeed surprisingly close to one another.

As a follower of track and field, however, I must say that they still aren't comparable. In the 1970s, the Olympic long distance races were some of the fastest of that era - the winner of that Montreal race for instance was only 12 seconds too slow to break the world record. Over the years the long distance title races became more and more tactical while WR attempts became specifically designed for selected few athletes who usually have several "pace makers" to help them save their strength. This is why you can't compare the eras directly - pace makers give today's elite runners an unfair advantage compared to previous greats as far as personal bests go, and the tactics used in head-to-head title races these days make the previous eras look much more competitive than they really were.

To give you some idea of current depth in long distance running, I chose a random Olympic year of 2000 and the best 5000m race that season: the Oslo Golden League event.

The winner of the race ran 12.55,03 which was the 5th fastest time that year.
The 6th placed finished the race in 12.56,60.
The 12th placed had a time of 13.05,44.

Pretty good compared to the World Record of 13.13,0 in 1976 I'd say! So while football may not have progressed that much as a sport since then, track and field certainly has. :)


About Pele's timing, I think it was in an old article on Eusebio, who also mentioned Pele's one. It was a long time ago anyway. Regardless, the specific timing is not very relevant on this issue, because footballers' timings have no world record value. Because of this, nobody actually cared (and still do not care) to keep a precise record of such timings, so in general they are quite approximative.
Plus such timings depend on circumstances, form, etc and a timing managed at a certain moment does not mean he is that player's personal best, nor that his personal best can be reproduced all the time in a football match, etc.
This goes for everyone, starting with Stanley Matthews and ending with Lionel Messi.

Okay then. You're right in that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. But while we're at it, what was Eusébio's time?

[TKORL]

1. Cruyff
2. Maradona
3. Garrincha
4. Beckenbauer
5. Di Stefano
6. Puskas
7. Best
8. Pele
9. Van Basten
10. Cantona
11. Bergkamp
12. Platini
13. Eusebio
14. Paolo Maldini
15. Zico
16. G. Muller
17. Romario
18. Gullit
19. Stoichkov
20. Baresi
21. Lev Yashin
22. Ronaldinho
23. Messi
24. Rijkaard
25. Cannavaro
Er. here's mine.

1. Pele
2. Beckenbauer
3. Maradona
4. Gerd Muller
5. Johann Cruyff
6. Garrincha
7. Lothar Matthaus
8. Giacinto Facchetti
9. Carlos Alberto
10. Franco Baresi

[Sampe]

By the way, are my eyes deceiving me or does Pelé nutmeg a certain player by the name of Franz Beckenbauer in this video at 04:15? :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6QXjzVjIQw

[gmonn]

By the way, are my eyes deceiving me or does Pelé nutmeg a certain player by the name of Franz Beckenbauer in this video at 04:15? :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6QXjzVjIQw

Oh my, that's more embarrassing than your average nutmeg. He should have scored after that. Just the way he kept his balance before the nutmeg was spectacular...

[kingkong1]

Man,

I hadn't seen THAT before!...

That's a scandal...

[kingkong1]

Oh my, that's more embarrassing than your average nutmeg. He should have scored after that. Just the way he kept his balance before the nutmeg was spectacular...Well, GT!...

He only did that because he counted with the help of geniuses!...

Who gave him that pass? The great Rivelino!...

Who was watching him and shouting: 'Run, Negão, run'! A genius: Gérson!...

And would he run so confident if he knew masterful Carlos Alberto wasn't 'back there' guaranteeing Brz defense?...

And what if the wizard Tostão's didn't execute his milimetrical pass to him in that goal against England in 1970?...

And what would be of 'The King' :rolleyes: if it weren't for 'Cup Hurricane' Jairzinho's sprints?...

However (how interesting!): you barely see those 'legendary' players cited among the 11 or even 22 'best players ever' lists one can see blossoming all over this Forum!...

And when that happens, they come in 8th, 14th, 21th place (as if it were a favour to them)!...

It looks like they ONLY exist as 'geniuses' in order to back up the lame and jealous argument that Pelé just scored all those goals and looked 'that' awesome...mainly because had 'great players surrounding him'!

And truly great Maradona, oh yeh, he played all alone! :( ...

[TKORL]

Well, GT!...

He only did that because he counted with the help of geniuses!...

Who gave him that pass? The great Rivelino!...

Who was watching him and shouting: 'Run, Negão, run'! A genius: Gérson!...

And would he run so confident if he knew masterful Carlos Alberto wasn't 'back there' guaranteeing Brz defense?...

And what if the wizard Tostão's didn't execute his milimetrical pass to him in that goal against England in 1970?...

And what would be of 'The King' :rolleyes: if it weren't for 'Cup Hurricane' Jairzinho's sprints?...

However (how interesting!): you barely see those legendary players cited among the 11 or even 22 'best players ever' lists one can see blossoming all over this Forum!...

And when that happens, they come in 8th, 14th, 21th place (as if it were a favour to them)!...

It looks like they ONLY exist as 'geniuses' in order to back up the lame and jealous argument that Pelé just scored all those goals and looked 'that' awesome...mainly because had 'great players surrounding him'!

And truly great Maradona, oh yeh, he played all alone! :( ...
That's because almost every poster/fan knows little to nothing about the actual game played at the very highest level, and is incapable of making accurate judgements on the best of the game.

[kingkong1]

Yep, it's true.

Pelé 'had great players surrounding him' and Maradona didn't.

Which kind of Players Pelé & El Pibe played against though?...

In that clip not only a legeng called Beckenbauer is being nutmegged by Pelé, but others too of the same generation, like Sepp Maier, Höttges, Schnellinger, Schulz, Vogts, Haller, Seeler, Overath, Müller, Libuda, Lorenz, Grabowski etc etc.

In the Brittish side let's take a look who did Pelé (not by himself, of course) 'nutmeg':

1GK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper)Gordon Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Banks)2DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Keith Newton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Newton)3DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Terry Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Cooper)4MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Alan Mullery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Mullery)5DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Brian Labone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Labone)6DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Bobby Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Moore)7FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Francis Lee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lee)8MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Alan Ball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Ball%2C_Jr.)9MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Bobby Charlton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Charlton)10FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Geoff Hurst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Hurst)11FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Martin Peters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Peters)12GK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper)Peter Bonetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bonetti)13GK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper)Alex Stepney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Stepney)14DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Tommy Wright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Wright)15DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Nobby Stiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobby_Stiles)16MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Emlyn Hughes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emlyn_Hughes)17DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_%28football%29)Jack Charlton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Charlton)18MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Norman Hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Hunter)19MF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midfielder)Colin Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Bell)20FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Peter Osgood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Osgood)21FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Allan Clarke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Clarke_%28footballer%29)22FW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striker)Jeff Astle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Astle)

Who did 'solitary' Maradona nutmeg though?...

Anybody remember a single name in that which was one of the most mediocre eras of world football***?...

Well, I tried to find out (in that 'famous' Brittish side of 1986):

1 GK Pat Jennings
2 DF Jimmy Nicholl
3 DF Mal Donaghy
4 DF John O'Neill
5 DF Alan McDonald
6 MF David McCreery
7 FW Steve Penney
8 MF Sammy McIlroy
9 FW Jimmy Quinn
10 FW Norman Whiteside
11 FW Ian Stewart
12 GK Jim Platt
13 GK Philip Hughes
14 FW Gerry Armstrong
15 MF Nigel Worthington
16 MF Paul Ramsey 3
17 FW Colin Clarke
18 DF John McClelland
19 FW Billy Hamilton
20 DF Bernard McNally
21 MF David Campbell
22 GK Mark Caughey

Will anybody tell me who are they?...
___________________________________________________________
***With a few honourable exceptions of course...

[bosterosoy]

Yep, it's true.

Pelé 'had great players surrounding him' and Maradona didn't.

Which kind of Players Pelé & El pibe played against though?...

In that clip a legeng called Beckenbauer is being nutmegged by Pelé.

Who did 'solitary' Maradona nutmeg though?...

Anybody remember a single name in that which was one of the most mediocre eras of world football***?..
___________________________________________________________
***With a few honourable exceptions of course...

hmm, Baresi, Maldini come to mind. He played in the Serie A which was not only the most competitive league while Maradona there, but was probably the most competitive league ever played. Serie A in the mid 80s to early 90s had some of the best teams ever. The greatest Milan team, the solid Juve teams of Platini and others. They had a few years in which Serie A teams won all 3 cup competition.

Everyone talks about how the Brasilian league was very good when Pele was there and I agree 100%, but the Serie A while Maradona was playing was much better

[jerrito]

hmm, Baresi, Maldini come to mind. He played in the Serie A which was not only the most competitive league while Maradona there, but was probably the most competitive league ever played. Serie A in the mid 80s to early 90s had some of the best teams ever. The greatest Milan team, the solid Juve teams of Platini and others. They had a few years in which Serie A teams won all 3 cup competition.

Everyone talks about how the Brasilian league was very good when Pele was there and I agree 100%, but the Serie A while Maradona was playing was much better

Great points. I think that even more important is the fact that Italy was loaded with great defenders and Maradona went against them every week.

[kingkong1]

hmm, Baresi, Maldini come to mind. He played in the Serie A which was not only the most competitive league while Maradona there, but was probably the most competitive league ever played. Serie A in the mid 80s to early 90s had some of the best teams ever. The greatest Milan team, the solid Juve teams of Platini and others. They had a few years in which Serie A teams won all 3 cup competition.

Everyone talks about how the Brasilian league was very good when Pele was there and I agree 100%, but the Serie A while Maradona was playing was much betterYou forgot my remark:***With a few honourable exceptions of courseYep, Baresi, Maldini, Platini...you don't go much beyond that, let's be frank!...

Now, if I cite to you Garrincha's Botafogo, Djalma Santos' Palmeiras, Tostão's Cruzeiro and Pelé's Santos (in which league by the way Pelé had all those 'geniuses' playing AGAINST him) you give me Platini's Juventus...

You gotta be kidding, man!...

Either Juventus, Napoli, Roma or Inter of the 80's/90's would be massacred by any of those teams!...

And, yes, I forgot to cite the impressive German 'squad' El Pibe 'nutmegged' at the 1986 final.

From them we can save:

Schumacher, Briegel, Brehme, Littbarski, Matthäus, Rummenigge, Hoeness period.

Who, although good players, if compared to the 1970 generation were very far from 'geniuses'.

[JumpinJackFlash]

Pele should feel like a very lucky boy that he didn't have to play in the same league as monsters like Claudio Gentile, he would have got tossed around like a bi*ch.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldcup2002/img/20020425_1982_celebrate.jpg
Note - Its English team, not British... very different beasts.

[kingkong1]

Pele should feel like a very lucky boy that he didn't have to play in the same league as monsters like Claudio Gentile, he would have got tossed around like a bi*chYou're not only crazy, man.

You're absolutely mad with my argument! :mad: ...

You swear, you lose :rolleyes: ...

[Kerkrade]

LMFAO

You're right, I just needed to complete the list, I'm sure I could think of a better player if I had given it a couple of minutes more :)

[bosterosoy]

Yep, Baresi, Maldini, Platini...you don't go much beyond that, let's be frank!...

Now, if I cite to you Garrincha's Botafogo, Djalma Santos' Palmeiras, Tostão's Cruzeiro and Pelé's Santos (in which by the way Pelé had all those 'geniuses' playing AGAINST him) you give me Platini's Juventus...

You gotta be kidding, man!...

Either Juventus, Napoli, Roma or Inter of the 80's/90's would be massacred by any of those teams!...

And, yes, I forgot to cite the impressive German 'squad' El Pibe 'nutmegged' at the 1986 final:

I only gave two examples but ok here is the list:

AC Milan:
Marco Van Basten
Paolo Rossi
Alessandro Costacurta
Paolo Maldini
Franco Baresi
Frank Rijkaard
Jean-Pierre Papin
Ruud Gullit
among others

Juventus:
Paolo Rossi
Dino Zoff
Roberto Baggio
Michel Platini
Jurghen Kohler
Michael Laudrap
Salvatore Schillaci
Gaetano Scirea
among others

Udinese:
Zico
Abel Balbo
Nestor Sensini

Inter Milan:
Lothar Matthäus
Guiseppe Bergomi
Jurgen Klinsmann
Daniel Passarella
Alessandro Altobelli
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
among others

Parma FC
Claudio Taffarel
Tomas Brolin

Torino
Enzo Francescoli
Leovegildo Lins da Gama Junior

AS Roma
Falcao

Fiorentina
Socrates
Claudio Gentile
Dunga
Daniel Passarella
Roberto Baggio
Batistuta

Brescia
Gheorghe Hagi
Branco

Sampdoria
Gianluca Vialli
Hans-Peter Briegel
Ruud Gullit
Graeme Souness

Just so you know, the key defenders there are everywhere. It's Serie A for crying out loud. Passarella, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini, Gentile, Sensini, Scirea, etc etc etc

and those are just a few that i'll leave up for now as its getting late and I have early classes tomorrow

[kingkong1]

I only gave two examples but ok here is the list:

AC Milan:
Marco Van Basten
Paolo Rossi
Alessandro Costacurta
Paolo Maldini
Franco Baresi
Frank Rijkaard
Jean-Pierre Papin
Ruud Gullit
among others

Juventus:
Paolo Rossi
Dino Zoff
Roberto Baggio
Michel Platini
Jurghen Kohler
Michael Laudrap
Salvatore Schillaci
Gaetano Scirea
among others

Udinese:
Zico
Abel Balbo
Nestor Sensini

Inter Milan:
Lothar Matthäus
Guiseppe Bergomi
Jurgen Klinsmann
Daniel Passarella
Alessandro Altobelli
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
among others

Parma FC
Claudio Taffarel
Tomas Brolin

Torino
Enzo Francescoli
Leovegildo Lins da Gama Junior

AS Roma
Falcao

Fiorentina
Socrates
Claudio Gentile
Dunga
Daniel Passarella
Roberto Baggio
Batistuta

Brescia
Gheorghe Hagi
Branco

Sampdoria
Gianluca Vialli
Hans-Peter Briegel
Ruud Gullit
Graeme Souness

Just so you know, the key defenders there are everywhere. It's Serie A for crying out loud. Passarella, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini, Gentile, Sensini, Scirea, etc etc etc

and those are just a few that i'll leave up for now as its getting late and I have early classes tomorrow

A theme for you to fancy with in your dreams tonight:

As far as forwards & midfields, the difference btw 80's/90's Italian Serie A and Pele's era is simply enormous: Di Stéfano, Didi, Gérson, Zito, Bobby Charlton, Breitner, Stanley Matthews, Garrincha, Müeller, Tostão, Rivelino, Jairzinho etc etc are way, but WAY, above your mids anf forwards...

As far as the defenders Pelé if not regularly but significantly faced, that difference is not that much: it's just huge.

Compare those real hevyweights with your (nothing but good) list, in which we can easily dispense with as 'just regular' the players I stressed in red above:

Yashin/ Meier/ Banks - Carlos Alberto/D. Santos - Bobby Moore/ Piazza - Beckenbauer - Figueroa - N. Santos etc etc (there are many more, but those are more than enough)...

Besides saying that Passarela & Maradona belonged to the same generation and both faced each other in Italy & at their peak (Passarela's got to his peak in the late 70's/ early 80's, Maradona in the late 80's) shows at least that either you're totally uninformed or that you're trying to throw sand in those guys' here well-opened eyes :cool: ...

[Ombak]

Pele should feel like a very lucky boy that he didn't have to play in the same league as monsters like Claudio Gentile, he would have got tossed around like a bi*ch.I know, God I wish we could go back to the 60s when soccer was a much less aggressive game. The 1966 World Cup in particular was all about giving the skilled player time to do his thing.