The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[kingkong1]

Cocaine does not enhance football performances (or in any kind of sport), so it's irellevant.

Don't take it there, King Kong, Pele and Maradona don't need cheap shots against each other, they do that themselves more than enough.That's quite arguable, Tribune.

Read the link: http://www.tavad.net/backpage_sport-drugs.htm
░Substances and attitudes
Sport activities improve quality of life, physically and psychosocially.

Highly competitive sports, expectations, fear of failure, the desire for success, these are some of the reasons to consume drugs during sports.

These are the drugs forbidden by the International Olympic Committee (IOC): stimulants, narcotics, beta blockers, diuretics, peptide hormones and their derivatives.

Also, blood doping is forbidden, as well as, pharmacological, physical or chemical manipulation of the urine.

Other drugs, such as alcohol, marijuana, cannabis, local anesthetics and corticosteroids, are not forbidden, but restricted.

Some federations have their own lists of forbidden substances.

░Cocaine, crack and heroin in sport

Cocaine is a powerful Central Nervous System stimulant, responsible for the death of some professional and university sportsmen. The dangerous effects of cocaine are the reason for its prohibitionIf a drug is a 'powerful stimulant', it can enhance sport performances, yes, sir.

Evidently not technically, but certainly physically (stamina wise). Its effect won't last for a life time, true. But - if well dosed, and ingested in the 'right' moments - for a few years, why not?...

After which self-destruction is certain, if no treatment follows, of course.

More (and I think that responds to GT's observation):

If you make use of cocaine, even 'recreationally', you're certainly psychologically opened to any type of doping - which in many cases (more often nowadays, it's true) is almost impossible to detect.

Even if nothing of that is correct, though, and you can prove Maradona just started making use of coke after his leaving Italy (which I sincerely doubt) just the stigma by itself is too significant.

And fatally his career will undergo an eternal purgatory.

[Moishe]

That's quite arguable, Tribune.

Read the link: http://www.tavad.net/backpage_sport-drugs.htmIf a drug is a 'powerful stimulant', it can enhance sport performances, yes, sir.

Evidently not technically, but certainly physically (stamina wise). Its effect won't last for a life time, true. But - if well dosed, and ingested in the 'right' moment - for a few years, why not?...

After which self-destruction is certain, if no treatment follows, of course.

More: if you make use of cocaine, even 'recreationally', you're certainly psychologically opened to any type of doping - which in many cases is almost impossible to detect.

Even if nothing of that is true, though, and you can prove Maradona just started makig use of coke after his leaving Italy (which I sincerely doubt) just the stigma by itself is too significant.

I've got to ask you one question, have you done cocaine? I think it's important to know if you are basing your opinion on experience or what has been "documented". I sadly have as a younger man and as the American comedian Bill Hicks said, "anyone that's done coke knows it's definitely a performance enhancing drug". While cocaine does in fact elevate the heart rate it does also have an adverse effect on motor function or more so coordination. Bottom line is cocaine in no way truly enhances an athletes ability to perform. That is a lie and pure bullshit. Still a crap drug none the less.

As far as an asterisk is concerned, one is not needed as all you have to do is look back to his emergence at Juniors and the season in BOCA before he went overseas. He was clearly a man amongst boys in an era where the shift in world futbol power had not entirely changed.

You are a well versed and knowledgeable poster please don't allow yourself to get brought down the level of mudslingers that you constantly have to defend Pele from. Stick to the high road, it's the right thing to do.:)

[Berean Todd]

Where is Beckenbauer? Where is Gerd Muller?

Romario ahead of Muller?

Hell, what about horse-face (-dinho) being anywhere NEAR the top 10. That list was obviously either a p*ss take or the work of a 12 year old.

[kingkong1]

I've got to ask you one question, have you done cocaine? I think it's important to know if you are basing your opinion on experience or what has been "documented". I sadly have as a younger man and as the American comedian Bill Hicks said, "anyone that's done coke knows it's definitely a performance enhancing drug". While cocaine does in fact elevate the heart rate it does also have an adverse effect on motor function or more so coordination. Bottom line is cocaine in no way truly enhances an athletes ability to perform. That is a lie and pure bullshit. Still a crap drug none the less.

As far as an asterisk is concerned, one is not needed as all you have to do is look back to his emergence at Juniors and the season in BOCA before he went overseas. He was clearly a man amongst boys in an era where the shift in world futbol power had not entirely changed.

You are a well versed and knowledgeable poster please don't allow yourself to get brought down the level of mudslingers that you constantly have to defend Pele from. Stick to the high road, it's the right thing to do.:)Moishe,

I know that's a sensitive subject and as such a target of emotional discussion.

I'm trying to be the most rational the possible though.

I didn't say cocaine enhances 'athletes ability'. I said it temporarilly enhances physical performance, which is way different.

Besides you ignored my observation:

if you make use of cocaine, even 'recreationally', you're certainly psychologically opened to any type of doping - which in many cases is almost impossible to detect.

I never used cocaine but had friends who did, and their behaviour often became hectic for hours.

That migh not prove much, since they weren't athletes, I know.

But everybody knows that's an open door to any type of drug (and in atletes case a green light to doping).

I also said that even if Maradona never used coke in Italy, or even if he used it incidentally, it was enough that fact to cast a shadow of mistrust upon his career.

You cannot deny that El Pibe commited the worst mistake of his life, a mistake that might have compromised him not only existentially but also professional wise.

That's sad but not improbable.

[Moishe]

Moishe,

I know that's a sensitive subject and as such a target of emotional discussion.

I'm trying to be the most rational the possible though.

I didn't say cocaine enhances 'athletes ability'. I said it temporarilly enhances physical performance, which is way different.

Besides you ignored my observation:



I never used cocaine but had friends who did, and their behaviour often became hectic for hours.

And everybody knows that's an open door to any type of drug (and in atletes case green light to doping).

I also said that even if Maradona never used coke in Italy, or even if he used it incidentally, it was enough that fact to throw a shadow of mistrust upon his career.

That's sad but not improbable.

Posts like this are most certainly are rational posts but you cannot deny you've had a go at Diego. The thing about cocaine is that it does neither enhance an athletes ability or performance. The motor(body) without the computer(brain) to properly operate it are useless. No enhancements to be had anywhere, sorry.

As far as gateway drugs, I won't offer up any argument as cocaine most certainly is that type of drug that leads to heroin, meth, crack....but the type of athlete that takes the EPO's and blood doping of the world are not the types that come from recreational drug us. I competitively cycle in Cat 3/4 races and the guys we know dope are not the ones coming from hard drug use. Two very different segments of athletes and users. The type of cyclist for example that used recreational drugs in their youth are likely to dope to the extent of pot and alcohol if even at all anymore.

As far as shadows of doubt towards the perception of his career is also a stretch. The skill and intelligence that Diego played with were purely natural and in no way benefited from his publicly known drug use.

[kingkong1]

I competitively cycle in Cat 3/4 races and the guys we know dope are not the ones coming from hard drug use. Two very different segments of athletes and users. The type of cyclist for example that used recreational drugs in their youth are likely to dope to the extent of pot and alcohol if even at all anymore.

As far as shadows of doubt towards the perception of his career is also a stretch. The skill and intelligence that Diego played with were purely natural and in no way benefited from his publicly known drug useThat's precisely it, though!...

You see things from the inside (since you were an athlete), and I see them as as a layman (since I never practiced sports in that level).

But the 'perception of a career' - erroneously as it might be - is generally made by the great majority of laymen: an athlete should not expose his prestige (and of his country) like Maradona did - that was irresponsible attitude on his part.

Now, you almost convinced me of the possibility of being wrong; but that only happened though because you showed to have a deeper technical insight of the problem than me.

But, and if you didn't? How millions of Argentinians who don't have it get stuck without response when confronted with the problem just because El Pibe resolved he may do whatever he wants without any consequence?...

[Moishe]

That's precisely it, though!...

You see things from the inside (since you were an athlete), and I see them as as a layman (since I never practiced sports in that level).

But the 'perception of a career' - erroneously as it might be - is generally made by the great majority of laymen: an athlete should not expose his prestige (and of his country) like Maradona did - that was irresponsible attitude on his part.

Now, you almost convinced me of the possibility of being wrong; but that only happened though because you showed to have a deeper technical insight of the problem than me.

But, and if you didn't? How millions of Argentinians who don't have it get stuck without response when confronted with the problem just because El Pibe resolved he may do whatever he wants without any consequence?...

Naturally it is the laymen as you say that do make up the great majority of those passing judgment on players. This is true for virtually anything outside of the sciences. While I'm no apologist for an addicts behavior, it seems to a good segment of the population tends to view these things as short comings rather than a sad illness. Had Maradona been busted using nandrolene or any of the blood enhancers then I really think society even that in Argentina would view him in a very different light. People understand Tio Boracho so to say but when it comes to true doping, many are clueless. We live in a very forgiving society and pop culture has to a degree glamourized cocaine to the extent that those who used it were nothing more than eccentrics and "party animals". Make sense?:)

[kingkong1]

I competitively cycle in Cat 3/4 races and the guys we know dope are not the ones coming from hard drug use. Two very different segments of athletes and users. The type of cyclist for example that used recreational drugs in their youth are likely to dope to the extent of pot and alcohol if even at all anymore.

As far as shadows of doubt towards the perception of his career is also a stretch. The skill and intelligence that Diego played with were purely natural and in no way benefited from his publicly known drug useThat's precisely it, though!...

You see things from the inside (since you were an athlete), and I see them as as a layman (since I never practiced sports in that level).

But the 'perception of a career' - erroneously as it might be - is generally buildt by the great majority of laymen: an athlete should not expose his prestige (and of his country) like Maradona did - that was a totally irresponsible attitude on his part.

Now, you almost convinced me of the possibility of I being wrong; that only happened though because you demonstrated to have a deeper technical insight of the problem than me.

But, and if you didn't?...

How millions of Argentinians who don't have it will avoid getting stuck without response when confronted with the problem just because El Pibe resolved he may do whatever he wants without any consequence?...

A national athlete is not just the result of 'what' he performs - and he has to prove it with numbers - but also of 'how' he performs (including the 'fair play' aspect) - and that he has to prove with attitudes...

[kingkong1]

Sorry for the unwanted duplicate post - thought I was editing it.

[Moishe]

That's precisely it, though!...

You see things from the inside (since you were an athlete), and I see them as as a layman (since I never practiced sports in that level).

But the 'perception of a career' - erroneously as it might be - is generally buildt by the great majority of laymen: an athlete should not expose his prestige (and of his country) like Maradona did - that was a totally irresponsible attitude on his part.

Now, you almost convinced me of the possibility of I being wrong; that only happened though because you demonstrated to have a deeper technical insight of the problem than me.

But, and if you didn't?...

How millions of Argentinians who don't have it will avoid getting stuck without response when confronted with the problem just because El Pibe resolved he may do whatever he wants without any consequence?...

A national athlete is not just the result of 'what' he performs - and he has to prove it with numbers - but also of 'how' he performs (including the 'fair play' aspect) - and that he has to prove with attitudes...

That's precisely what defines Maradona. No one I know of makes illusions to the type of person he was or could be off the pitch but it was that give your life for the shirt and country that allowed most laymen to overlook his severe short comings as a person. No one ever questioned what he gave for his country but we were either able to acknowledge his issues and others endemic of society pretended they weren't there.

It's a pointless debate really as neither of us is actually right or wrong. I'd rather argue with someone stupid, it's more fun:D

[AllWhitebeliever]

Hell, what about horse-face (-dinho) being anywhere NEAR the top 10. That list was obviously either a p*ss take or the work of a 12 year old.

You idiot, I said that outside the top 8, it get a bit difficult to start ranking the other players because the standard obviously drops significantly.

Just because I have Rolandinho as number 9 doesn't mean that he was that clear as being number 9. He is just part of the bigger pack of players following the greater legends of the game. E.g. Beckenbeur or Stanley Matthews could easy be number 9 and I do see them as equivalent players on the same platform, there is very little difference between them. For some people, Ronaldinho is not in their top 50. Well Kudos for that. Ignorance in the changing of the game and the ever changing professional can be totally disregard by many. Thoses who place Maradona ahead of Pele actually do have good points about the state of the game although I mainly disagreed with it in regards to playing type.

OK so you maybe very right about Ronaldinho placing. He's a better player and very professional compare the smegheads that are sometimes mention here.

Any personal insults that you made shows that you have hardly much to say other than taking a trivial points out people's opinion without a bit more constructive points of view. Although you may be right in saying that Ronaldinho is nowhere near the top 10 and in large there is plenty of support to say that. . . . .a 12 year old can have a good enough reason to place him there if that is their opinion.

.. . or maybe you are upset because I didn't have any Italians, so maybe its my duty not include them in any top list just to knack you off.

:rolleyes:

[kingkong1]

Naturally it is the laymen as you say that do make up the great majority of those passing judgment on players. This is true for virtually anything outside of the sciences. While I'm no apologist for an addicts behavior, it seems to a good segment of the population tends to view these things as short comings rather than a sad illness. Had Maradona been busted using nandrolene or any of the blood enhancers then I really think society even that in Argentina would view him in a very different light. People understand Tio Boracho so to say but when it comes to true doping, many are clueless. We live in a very forgiving society and pop culture has to a degree glamourized cocaine to the extent that those who used it were nothing more than eccentrics and "party animals". Make sense?:)Does make sense, Moishe!...

Sorry for being harsh with El Pibe!...

BTW, think I'll start my activities as a forgiving layman by digiting posts solely with my left hand while sniffing something with the other just to see if those Brittish BigSoccer fellows discover some glamour in it (kd) :p ...

I hope they'll understand that in a Brazzie x Argie 'dispute' a little provocation IS essential...

[Tribune]

That's quite arguable, Tribune.

Read the link: http://www.tavad.net/backpage_sport-drugs.htmIf a drug is a 'powerful stimulant', it can enhance sport performances, yes, sir.

Evidently not technically, but certainly physically (stamina wise). Its effect won't last for a life time, true. But - if well dosed, and ingested in the 'right' moments - for a few years, why not?...

After which self-destruction is certain, if no treatment follows, of course.

More (and I think that responds to GT's observation):

If you make use of cocaine, even 'recreationally', you're certainly psychologically opened to any type of doping - which in many cases (more often nowadays, it's true) is almost impossible to detect.

Even if nothing of that is correct, though, and you can prove Maradona just started making use of coke after his leaving Italy (which I sincerely doubt) just the stigma by itself is too significant.

And fatally his career will undergo an eternal purgatory.

Honestly, King Kong, I'm not competent enough to insist on the subject. Unlike some others here (:p), where I don't have sufficient knowledge of, I prefer to restrain myself from commenting.
My observations on this were based on the fact that football is a sport which relies enormously on "pitch intelligence" and ball skills, which I can't see how they could be enhanced by coke, and I'm not sure if they wouldn't have a rather negative effect on those.

I could be wrong though, because my opinions on the issue are, frankly, from an amateur's perspective.

[Moishe]

Does make sense, Moishe!...

Sorry for being harsh with El Pibe!...

BTW, think I'll start my activities as a forgiving layman by digiting posts solely with my left hand while sniffing something with the other just to see if those Brittish BigSoccer fellows discover some glamour in it (kd) :p ...

I hope they'll understand that in a Brazzie x Argie 'dispute' a little provocation IS essential...

:)....and now for our next debate, Tango versus Samba. The key to good debate or argument is in the end the ability to maintain an open mind. Also trying to make some folks around here understand is futile. They're just jealous:D

[JumpinJackFlash]

You have not come back after Moishe's reply, shall I understand you were busy trying to figure out the difference between Internazionale Milano and Internacional Porto Alegre (hint : the clue is in the name of the city) ?What was there to reply to? Moishe just said that he was unfamiliar with the concept of blatant sarcasm, so I left it at that. Why are you splitting hairs about two South American teams called Inter? The Argentine one makes a habit of losing to Juve and Milan. The Brazilian one has won less League Championships than Sao Paulo.

In that case, can I assume you are advocating for Bican ?Bican happens to have scored more real goals than anybody else in the entire history of this game yes, but there is more to football than just putting a ball in the back of the net, hense why I think Maradona is the greatest. And for the same reason why IMO Garrincha is better than Pele.
Hey, man!...

Good stuff!...

Where did you get it? (kd)...

Watch that & listen to me:

(Taken from an Internet site):

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7177/maradonateam16668a2hr6.png

Jumpin,

You shouldn't condition fabulous Serie A prestige to the participation in it of players like Maradona...

By being a drug addict (specially, as it was proved, precisely during his glorious sejourn in Naples) he makes everybody think that the whole league should ALSO sniff coke, and that the famous 'speed', 'fast pace' and 'vigour' of Italian football of that time could have a way less noble origin than the one you ascribe to it...

PIECE OF ADVICE: don't 'burn the film' of your whole football just because of one person...

Diego managed to battle drug addiction (to a drug which holds somebody back, not improves performance) while becoming the greatest in the world, that just makes him all the more inspirational that he could do that while battling an aflication. Also why when there is a debate about these two players, do people who (like the suits in FIFA) are in Pele's corner, pretend as if everybody in Brazil are angles, where nobody has ever done recreational drugs. :rolleyes:

Tango versus Samba
Trick question; Tarantella.

[kingkong1]

Diego managed to battle drug addiction (to a drug which holds somebody back, not improves performance) while becoming the greatest in the world, that just makes him all the more inspirational that he could do that while battling an aflication. Also why when there is a debate about these two players, do people who (like the suits in FIFA) are in Pele's corner, pretend as if everybody in Brazil are angles, where nobody has ever done recreational drugs.

Trick question; Tarantella.Well,

I'm happy to know that (indirectly) I made you approach Tribune & Moishe (at least in the drugs subject) and even me (who confess myself practically convinced by their/your arguments in that aspect).

(It does look to me now I was ill-informed, and that - through damn Brz x Argie rivalry - lead to prejudice, period).

Wellcome to the Latin (You-Moishe-KK)-Romanian (Tribune) 'commonwealth'! ...

Tarantella? How that goes?...

[Moishe]

What was there to reply to? Moishe just said that he was unfamiliar with the concept of blatant sarcasm, so I left it at that. Why are you splitting hairs about two South American teams called Inter? The Argentine one makes a habit of losing to Juve and Milan. The Brazilian one has won less League Championships than Sao Paulo


Moishe (love referring to myself in third person:D) never said anything to the degree of being unfamiliar with the concept of blatant sarcasm. The key word there is blatant something which when confronted by the fact you've completely defended every stance you've taken, it's hard to believe that you would post anything other than what you truly thought. There in lies your absolute lack of the grasp of the word blatant. Again find you a copy of the book I offered and learn about proper usage of sarcasm in script.:rolleyes:


Trick question; Tarantella.

For the record I'd take this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5E4mBoGX6Dw&feature=related

over this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8YMVGvSJZ0

although this with the proper booties trumps all:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jz0Jy6NGN1g

call me biased or call me a Sudacasnob but like futbol is there really any comparison:cool:

[kingkong1]

For the record I'd take this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5E4mBoGX6Dw&feature=relatedBeautiful soccer trick there with the 'player' carrying the 'ball'
almost to the head...

Great move!

Sheer Maradona...

;)

I said almost:

In this clip however he does not even
use his hands to complete it:

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=lG8D6BHRmhs

(Gafieira is 'boliche' samba)

Sheer Garrincha...

:p

Both display melifluous SA 'soccer styles' though - at its best.

'Tarantella's stiffer, JJ!...

:cool:

[bosterosoy]

Maradona as a runner-up soon will be lost in oblivion (& will be one more in the vast gallery of 'great' players who aspired to the King's throne)...

I participated and then fell behind as I was away. I've read up to page 27 and this stuck out as the worst BS i've seen in this thread so far

Also, this is my top IMO

1) Maradona
2) Pele
3) Di Stefano
4) Beckenbauer
5) Cryuff
6) Eusebio
7) Best
8) Puskas

after that it gets difficult. Porbably next would be between Muller, Garrincha, Lav Yashin, Charlton, Mathaus, Van Basten and maybe Ronaldo

[Dr. Know]

I participated and then fell behind as I was away. I've read up to page 27 and this stuck out as the worst BS i've seen in this thread so far


Ignore the biased Brazilian. He also said Maradona was overrated in another post :rolleyes:.