The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[kingkong1]

xxx

[mattteo]

Ok...
1. The Spanish clubs have won more european cups than italian clubs.

wrong.

[TKORL]

Because ticket-sales was their only source of income. No TV deals, no sponsorship deals, etc. Selling their stadium was top priority for a club.
For a club like Santos, the money they were getting from those friendly tournaments was a major source of revenue. Santos was rewarded handsomely for those friendly games because at that time it was an entire mistique around the brazilian players following their great performances in the 1950 WC but especially after the triumph from 1958. For a foreign club, it was of the highest prestige to have a team like Santos as their opponents. It was an occasion which happened only several times in a player's career, so they took those friendlies very seriously. Even more seriously in fact that the regular championship games. Yes, you heard me right and I am not drunk. Why so ? Because of the rarity of such an opportunirty, plus the fact that a victory against Santos, considered at that time one of the best teams in the world, was extremely coveted, since it would have determined an increase of prestige of that club, thus being itself more sought after for friendly games.

Also, you have to take into consideration that the european public did not have the chance to see the brazilian players on a regular basis like today. The stadium were guaranteed sold-out when a team like Santos came to town and those people didn't buy their tickets to see some kind of half-baked performances. A game with Santos was a chance for an european club to make record sales from tickets, so you actually think their players put less effort than in training ? There were great expectations from such an encounter and the teams had to fill them, else who would have come to see them next time ?


And that's the difference. The incentive to move to Europe in those days was also not so great as European stars back then were not the millionaires of today.

[Tribune]

wrong.

http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/ecsf.html

Spain has won 29 Champion's Leagues, Cup Winner's Cup and UEFA Cups towards 28 of Italy.

It is wrong only if you include the Supercups (which Italy has 9, Spain 6).

It does not matter anyway, because it is so close, that is plainly ridiculous to proclaim one league as being historically better than the other based on those results.

[mattteo]

http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/ecsf.html

Spain has won 29 Champion's Leagues, Cup Winner's Cup and UEFA Cups towards 28 of Italy.

It is wrong only if you include the Supercups (which Italy has 9, Spain 6).

It does not matter anyway, because it is so close, that is plainly ridiculous to proclaim one league as being historically better than the other based on those results.

i thought you were referring to the champions league (which used to be called "european cup").

[Ombak]

So JumpinJackFlash not knowing of any examples of Pelé and Santos beating these teams (with the exception of one occassion against Fiorentina) asks for examples. Upon being provided with them he can immediately dismiss them despite not being familiar with any of these games? Nice and convenient I guess, but entirely bullshit.

As pointed out above, friendlies in 2007 are nothing like friendlies (particularly between top teams from Europe and South America) in the 1960s. No European league was head and shoulders above Brazil in those days (and Tribune made an excellent post showing that Brazil in fact met the criteria JJF set out for best league in the world).

As far as I'm concerned no one has ever had a soccer brain as amazing as Pelé's. He was an excellent athlete, but above all he was a player so far ahead of anyone else on the field that it is difficult to grasp just how much he changed the game.

He is also much more complete than people who have only a passing knowledge of his game might give him credit for - he had every skill, from heading and shooting, to positioning and tackling and, believe it or not, goalkeeping. Towards the end of his career subs were introduced, but before they were allowed, Pelé was the backup keeper for Santos. He never gave up a goal in his career.

It's difficult to express just how good he was, but if you ever want a player to emulate when trying to learn the subtleties of the game, the finer points of decision-making in soccer - when to shoot, how to hit the ball, when to pass, where to run to and when to let the ball go by, etc. (split-second decisions on the field of course, but it always pays to watch and think about them) Pelé is the player to watch.

EDIT: Post corrected, credit to Tribune, sorry about that!

[Tribune]

As pointed out above, friendlies in 2007 are nothing like friendlies (particularly between top teams from Europe and South America) in the 1960s. No European league was head and shoulders above Brazil in those days (and kingkong made an excellent post showing that Brazil in fact met the criteria JJF set out for best league in the world).



Hey, that was me who made that post ! :mad: :p :D

[BlackburnRover]

Stanley Matthews deserves a mention with all the others.

"The man who taught us the way football should be played" according to Pele, and he knew a thing or two... apart from the Nicky Butt thing.

I have no stats to support this however :rolleyes:

[kingkong1]

Hey, that was me who made that post ! :p Tribune takes that!...

All I did was lightly brush a few points in his general picture in order to enhance a few colours, that was all...

Looks like I got the fame, though! :D ...

[kingkong1]

Stanley Matthews deserves a mention with all the others.

"The man who taught us the way football should be played" according to Pele, and he knew a thing or two...No doubt.

The rightwing is his - and Garrincha's - exclusivity in world football! :cool: ...

[JumpinJackFlash]

Upon being provided with them he can immediately dismiss them despite..

"... the fact that Brazilians and Brazilian football propagandists drunkenly claim friendlies are as important as actual official games and despite the fact that, in one of these kick abouts in the park that European clubs do not even deem worthy to keep in their records, Juventus even beat Santos 5-3 anyway."

Bican's goals are not very well documented either, but there is one player who actually scored more than Pele. It is Gerd Muller, who scored a total of 1455 goals in all competitions, officials and friendlies. Yet he was not considered the best simply because he was not good enough. End of.
If you had even a minimal knowledge of football history, this is the player which you should have brought forward in a head-to-head comparison with Pele in terms of goal numbers. Unlike Bican, whose total is not even well known, Muller scored his goals in Bundesliga, the best european league in the decade 1970-1980, and he has proven himself as an unstoppable goalscoring machine at every level possible, in Germany, ECC, European Championship and World Cup and won every trophy a player could hope to win.

Please understand what OFFICIAL GAME means, around 700 of the goals Gerd scored was in friendlies and charity games thats why he isn't recognised as #1 and Europeans don't even push for it, he scored less goals in official games than Bican, Pele and Romario. No player has scored more than 1000 goals in official games or actual competitions (despite what Peliars would like the world to believe). Bican is known for a fact to have scored atleast 800 in official games, no Brazilian.. or nobody else in general has reached that number (please note, this does not count - friendlies, charity games, games against disabled people, against children, kick abouts against old women and dogs in the park, training session goals, goals scored in his back garden)


5. There is no Church of Pele, something which cannot be said about Maradona.
http://www.jansochor.com/reportaze-fotografie-2004/dios/diego-maradona-03.jpg

[Kulspruta]

Yeah, I guess you could say Pele playing against italian sides in the early 60's was like playing against disabled people.

[kingkong1]

Yeah, I guess you could say Pele playing against italian sides in the early 60's was like playing against disabled people.Twas like spanking drunkards, no doubt :p ...

[kingkong1]

(...) please note, this does not count - friendlies, charity games, games against disabled people, against children, kick abouts against old women and dogs in the park, training session goals, goals scored in his back garden (...)Hey, man!...

Good stuff!...

Where did you get it? (kd)...

Watch that & listen to me:

(Taken from an Internet site):

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7177/maradonateam16668a2hr6.png

Jumpin,

You shouldn't condition fabulous Serie A prestige to the participation in it of players like Maradona...

By being a drug addict (specially, as it was proved, precisely during his glorious sejourn in Naples) he makes everybody think that the whole league should ALSO sniff coke, and that the famous 'speed', 'fast pace' and 'vigour' of Italian football of that time could have a way less noble origin than the one you ascribe to it...

PIECE OF ADVICE: don't 'burn the film' of your whole football just because of one person...

[Tribune]

"... the fact that Brazilians and Brazilian football propagandists drunkenly claim friendlies are as important as actual official games and despite the fact that, in one of these kick abouts in the park that European clubs do not even deem worthy to keep in their records, Juventus even beat Santos 5-3 anyway."



Please understand what OFFICIAL GAME means, around 700 of the goals Gerd scored was in friendlies and charity games thats why he isn't recognised as #1 and Europeans don't even push for it, he scored less goals in official games than Bican, Pele and Romario. No player has scored more than 1000 goals in official games or actual competitions (despite what Peliars would like the world to believe). Bican is known for a fact to have scored atleast 800 in official games, no Brazilian.. or nobody else in general has reached that number (please note, this does not count - friendlies, charity games, games against disabled people, against children, kick abouts against old women and dogs in the park, training session goals, goals scored in his back garden)


http://www.jansochor.com/reportaze-fotografie-2004/dios/diego-maradona-03.jpg

You have not come back after Moishe's reply, shall I understand you were busy trying to figure out the difference between Internazionale Milano and Internacional Porto Alegre (hint : the clue is in the name of the city) ?


Please understand what OFFICIAL GAME means, around 700 of the goals Gerd scored was in friendlies and charity games thats why he isn't recognised as #1 and Europeans don't even push for it, he scored less goals in official games than Bican, Pele and Romario. No player has scored more than 1000 goals in official games or actual competitions (despite what Peliars would like the world to believe). Bican is known for a fact to have scored atleast 800 in official games, no Brazilian.. or nobody else in general has reached that number (please note, this does not count - friendlies, charity games, games against disabled people, against children, kick abouts against old women and dogs in the park, training session goals, goals scored in his back garden)

In that case, can I assume you are advocating for Bican ?

PS : Gerd Muller has only 30 goals less Pele and 33 less than Romario, so let's not be petty.
And, btw, europeans do push for Muller as being the best STRIKER, as the fierce debates in the "The best striker ever" thread from 2 years show very well.

[gmonn]

I'm not trying to put Maradona down, genuine question. Was his performance enhanced by drugs, or was it all recreational use? Barry Bonds gets an asterisk, but Maradona doesn't seem to get that...

[Tribune]

I'm not trying to put Maradona down, genuine question. Was his performance enhanced by drugs, or was it all recreational use? Barry Bonds gets an asterisk, but Maradona doesn't seem to get that...

Recreational use. He became "acquainted" with coke in Barcelona and I've seen footage of him in Argentina especially in his Boca time and it was nothing less than brilliant.

[kingkong1]

Recreational use. He became "acquainted" with coke in Barcelona and I've seen footage of him in Argentina especially in his Boca time and it was nothing less than brilliant.Nobody can know for sure when he 'started': Italy has always been big consumer country of cocaine.

If, in his case, use was just 'registered' or 'witnessed' in Spain, that doesn't mean he didn't do it in Italy...

Anyway the use of cocaine doesn't destroy a player's career immediately: during a few years he'll play like a God...

Maybe El Pibe's football might be the same without the drug, but nobody can tell for sure :( ...

The fact is that his whole career as a football player will always be under suspicion because of that...

[Tribune]

Nobody can know for sure when he started: Italy has always been big consumer country of cocaine.

If, in his case, use was just 'registered' or 'witnessed' in Spain, that doesn't mean he didn't do it in Italy...

Poor guy, maybe his football would be the same without the drug, but nobody can tell for sure :( ...

Cocaine does not enhance football performances (or in any kind of sport), so it's irellevant.

Don't take it there, King Kong, Pele and Maradona don't need cheap shots against each other, they do that themselves more than enough.

[gmonn]

Cocaine does not enhance football performances (or in any kind of sport), so it's irellevant.

Don't take it there, King Kong, Pele and Maradona don't need cheap shots against each other, they do that themselves more than enough.

I actually think it might be helpful in a sprint. But for a game? Eventually your heart must explode.