The Ultimate Soccer Player to Walk the Earth

[Moishe]

It's the danger of checking out BigSoccer just for fun for a few minutes and then discovering gems like this. Now I spent 45 minutes checking and reading the last two pages of this thread while I only wanted to spent something like 10 minutes!

Happens to me to. I mainly come here to learn how great European futbol has always been while learning that my beloved BOCA and my viejos Maquina were nothing:D

[Tribune]

Happens to me to. I mainly come here to learn how great European futbol has always been while learning that my beloved BOCA and my viejos Maquina were nothing:D


I feel you. It seems humility has disappeared from some of the representatives of today's generation, who behave as if football started in the mid 90s in the Bosman era.

As Gregoriak said, it's better to try getting some knowledge on the subject, before you never know when you are going to get checked by someone.

[JumpinJackFlash]

It seems that those south-americans didn't actually cared that much about the european cup or about Europe in general. (...) Do you actually think that the likes of Maradona or Zico went to teams like Napoli and Udinese in the hope of winning the European Cup ? They went because there they got the biggest paycheck.

Regardless of time length, they made an effort to relocate half the way round the world to play, they can't have disliked it that much to make that effort.

Also, I'm pretty sure Maradona wasn't expecting to leave Barcelona so soon after he moved from Argentina, a huge club capable of winning the European Cup. When Maradona moved to Napoli, he managed to achieve the honour of winning the best league in the world... twice, so its still prestige, and a big footballing challenge. You make it sound like he didn't give a shi't about the football and was just interested in money, he has said he loves Napoli almost as much as Boca.

Anyway, since you seem to think that the majority of the best SA players had big careers in Europe, I'll give you examples of players who did not.If we're excavating fossils, I can give you a list of more great South Americans who were highly important that hasn't been mentioned and did come to Europe very early on.

Argies
Guillermo Stábile - Topscorer in the first ever World Cup
Attilio Demaría - runner-up in the first World Cup, then won the second with Italy
Mario Evaristo - runner-up in the first World Cup
Luis Monti - runner-up in first World Cup, winner in second with Italy, silver medal Olympian Renato Cesarini - 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Raimundo Orsi - World Cup winner with Italy, silver medal Olympian, 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Alejandro Scopelli - runner-up in first World Cup
Enrique Guaita - Roma legend, won World Cup with Italy
Bruno Pesaola - Napoli legend

Uruguayans
Ernesto Mascheroni - winner in first ever World Cup
Ettore Puricelli - goalscoring legend, helped Bologna win Serie A twice
Raffaele Sansone - nothing major, just won the world's greatest league 4 times with Bologna

Paraguayans
Attila Sallustro - all-time topscorer for Napoli

Brazilians
Anfilogino Guarisi - won World Cup with Italy, played for Lazio

I'll stop there for now, cause it would be harsh to keep listing more, we just have to look at today too? The legacy continues, obscure players like Messi, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Tevez, Crespo, Riquelme, Robinho all play in Europe. Theres no shame in it, they know how to play football and so they go to the most renowned and pretigious leagues, 1 + 1 = 2. Its not Eurosnobery to say that they had to change the long existing Ballon d'Or to mean World Player of the Year, instead of just European... because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to create a new world honour which carried such prestige as the long established European award. Its just simply how football is.

About Juve, it was on 18 June 1961, when Santos beat Juventus Torino with 2 - 0, with one goal from Pele.In the almanac of every single Juve game I have, its not mentioned anywhere... are you sure it wasn't against the reserves or something? Maybe the youth team. The one one competative fixture you listed was in the Toyota Cup, a competition treated like a friendly by Europeans that nobody seems to take seriously. Hense in the modern day, we see Brazilian clubs, who no disrespect to them, clearly aren't as big as Liverpool/Barcelona winning the competition's heir in Asia.

[Ombak]

The one one competative fixture you listed was in the Toyota Cup, a competition treated like a friendly by Europeans that nobody seems to take seriously. Hense in the modern day, we see Brazilian clubs, who no disrespect to them, clearly aren't as big as Liverpool/Barcelona winning the competition's heir in Asia.There was no Toyota Cup back then. It would help your credibility a little if you could demonstrate some knowledge of these games.

[JumpinJackFlash]

The Toyota Cup is the same thing as the Intercontinental Cup, just one of the names it used (and that I'm used to calling it since thats what it was called from the 80s until recently), you know, the intercontinental competition which has been around since the 60s and Tribune actually referenced in his post in regards to Milan-Santos.

[Tribune]

The Toyota Cup is the same thing as the Intercontinental Cup, just one of the names it used (and that I'm used to calling it since thats what it was called from the 80s until recently), you know, the intercontinental competition which has been around since the 60s and Tribune actually referenced in his post in regards to Milan-Santos.

Just for my curiosity, before I answer, can I know why are you constantly refering to the Serie A as the best league in the world, regardless of time period ?

[JumpinJackFlash]

Because I agree with Mr. Bianchi, ;) http://www.extra-football.com/articles/bianchi-serie-a-best-league.html

Plus is it too far of a stretch to just call it that? It was good enough for the First World Cup's topscorer to decide to move to it in the 1930s, it was good enough for Omar Sivori in the 1950s/60s, it was good enough for El Diego in the 80s, its good enough for today's World Player of the Year Kaka.

All of this achieved throughout the overall history of football, not just something from the 2000s. Its clubs have reached more European Cup finals than any other league, its clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, etc, etc.

[AllWhitebeliever]

Good heavens, you have absolutely no clue what a player Beckenbauer was. There are so many wrongs in your posts, I don't even know where to start. Basically your point is that Beckenbauer was not skilled enough to hang with your favorite players. Which only shows that you have absolutely no clue about Beckenbauer as a player.

If Beckenbeur had amazing enough football skill as the others on my list, he would no-doubt be running things from the midfield without the fear of losing the ball.

I wish you were on a wind-up but I fear you are serious with this assessment. Some basic information for you: Beckenbauer played as a central midfielder for Germany in a 4-3-3 in both the 1966 and the 1970 World Cups. He only played as a "center back" (as you wrongly put it, the historically correct term is libero, may have heard it before, it's Italian and basically hints at a player having no marking job in defense, allowing him to join the attacks frequently and in fact becoming a quasi-playmaker, just hanging very deep) in the 1974 World Cup. In 1966 and 1970 (please watch the YouTube clips I posted above for prove) he continuously did exactly what you say he had not enough skill for!

All I'm asking of people is, before they start to elaborate on subjects (provided they are not keen on making themselves look totally clueless)

TRY TO GET A BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Hell.

Those are good clips of Beckenbauer. And yes I was very hastily in my assessment of him. I have to say he is definitely up in my top 20. And I must admit that the clip had showed that he was still a forerunner of the ultimate team player because of the countless interplay with his teammates. Plus you are right and I was wrong by my assertion of his amazing enough football skill of looking after the ball. I was too simple in this and severely wrong even in that.

To be honest, anyone in the top 200 players should be capable of dribble around players and looking after the ball, so really I guess that it rather more of what type of skill (and how extra extra ordinary it was) and the greater range of it that made the criteria.

Beckenbauer definitely had enough skill to wow the crowd and probably redefined the libero role, but then there are plenty of others that are there and thereabout. He definitely would be a player that I would prefer to play with in a team because you will always get a piece of the action. I wish I could see more this play today at the elite level.

But I like I said, there wasn't much facts for me to go on so excuse my ignorance and not being up to date since youtube etc has started on the internet and my "two year old memory" of him at the 1974 World cup reel was just that, I was too young to grasp his best role, so I was a bit too lazy to do any digging on him.:o I assume too much.

Yes I hang my head in shame today because of my assessment of Beckenbauer was flawed. There is always a first time for anything. Damn I wish I was perfect so I wouldn't have to worry about piles of my assignment work to do at this time of the year while doing other interests.

[Moishe]

Argies
Guillermo Stábile - Topscorer in the first ever World Cup
Attilio Demaría - runner-up in the first World Cup, then won the second with Italy
Mario Evaristo - runner-up in the first World Cup
Luis Monti - runner-up in first World Cup, winner in second with Italy, silver medal Olympian Renato Cesarini - 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Raimundo Orsi - World Cup winner with Italy, silver medal Olympian, 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Alejandro Scopelli - runner-up in first World Cup
Enrique Guaita - Roma legend, won World Cup with Italy
Bruno Pesaola - Napoli legend

Uruguayans
Ernesto Mascheroni - winner in first ever World Cup
Ettore Puricelli - goalscoring legend, helped Bologna win Serie A twice
Raffaele Sansone - nothing major, just won the world's greatest league 4 times with Bologna

Paraguayans
Attila Sallustro - all-time topscorer for Napoli

Brazilians
Anfilogino Guarisi - won World Cup with Italy, played for Lazio

I'll stop there for now, cause it would be harsh to keep listing more, we just have to look at today too? The legacy continues, obscure players like Messi, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Tevez, Crespo, Riquelme, Robinho all play in Europe. Theres no shame in it, they know how to play football and so they go to the most renowned and pretigious leagues, 1 + 1 = 2. Its not Eurosnobery to say that they had to change the long existing Ballon d'Or to mean World Player of the Year, instead of just European... because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to create a new world honour which carried such prestige as the long established European award. Its just simply how football is.

What's harsh is reading your baseless dribble over and over. When you referenced the long list of fine South American did you ever factor in one very important thing? How many of those players actually jumped at a chance to go home and be near family? You forget that amongst many of the older players, they were rarely more than one generation off the boat. You should actually take the time to speak to the older generation to get insight as to how futbol in South America was in the old days, you'd be amazed at how foolish you are looking.

As far as referring to players like Messi, Riquelme, Tevez, Ronaldinho.....as obscure is absurd and without merit. What you pretty much said was that those players were unknown before arriving in Europe. You do realize that in areas like North America they have an enormous Latino population and it didn't take Europe for those people to hear or know of the players mentioned. Those comments pretty much are pretty much the epitome of Eurosnobbery. Also Riquelme does not play in Europe anymore as his transfer back to BOCA gets signed off on tomorrow.

Because I agree with Mr. Bianchi, ;) http://www.extra-football.com/articles/bianchi-serie-a-best-league.html

Plus is it too far of a stretch to just call it that? It was good enough for the First World Cup's topscorer to decide to move to it in the 1930s, it was good enough for Omar Sivori in the 1950s/60s, it was good enough for El Diego in the 80s, its good enough for today's World Player of the Year Kaka.

All of this achieved throughout the overall history of football, not just something from the 2000s. Its clubs have reached more European Cup finals than any other league, its clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, etc, etc.

We'll gee whiz, if Rolando Bianchi says it, then some validity must exist. Italian futbol has a great history but to say it is currently the best game in the world is clearly debatable as I'm sure Spanish, English and German fans may disagree, heck I prefer la liga after Argentina but just my tastes and I don't feel the need to shove them down the throats of people.

You ever hear the term "never bring a knife to a gun fight"? You've more or less been debating with people that have been watching the game for a very very long time and it shows. Your bias while expected to a degree is more single minded denial more than anything.

[Tribune]

Because I agree with Mr. Bianchi, ;) http://www.extra-football.com/articles/bianchi-serie-a-best-league.html

Plus is it too far of a stretch to just call it that? It was good enough for the First World Cup's topscorer to decide to move to it in the 1930s, it was good enough for Omar Sivori in the 1950s/60s, it was good enough for El Diego in the 80s, its good enough for today's World Player of the Year Kaka.

All of this achieved throughout the overall history of football, not just something from the 2000s. Its clubs have reached more European Cup finals than any other league, its clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, etc, etc.

And since when it's Mr.Bianchi the supreme authority to decide what league is the best ?

Plus is it too far of a stretch to just call it that?

In fact, yeah. I recently saw a poll on the other big soccer forum from the net, called Soccerpulse, about the best league and the Calcio fans were the only ones nominating Serie A. For the moment, Serie A is not the best anymore.

It was good enough for the First World Cup's topscorer to decide to move to it in the 1930s, it was good enough for Omar Sivori in the 1950s/60s, it was good enough for El Diego in the 80s, its good enough for today's World Player of the Year Kaka.

Several great players moving to Serie A do not make it the best. Primera can boast a similar number of stars moving to Spain, including Kubala, Di Stefano and Puskas in the 50s, Cruyff, Neeskens, Breitner, Netzer and Luis Pereira in the 70s, Maradona, Hugo Sanchez and Lineker in the 80s, Stoichkov, Romario, Rivaldo in the 90s, etc.

All of this achieved throughout the overall history of football, not just something from the 2000s.

Actually you are applying a current paradigm to the entire history of football. I can give you a specific example when Serie A was not the best : the 1967-1980 when the italian federation imposed a ban on foreign players in Serie A. The consequence was a significant drop in the quality of the italian sides in the 70s. In the long term, it had positive effects, because it resulted in the emergence of an excellent crop of italian players in the early 80s, who will win the wc in 1982, but in the 70s Serie A was second fiddle to Bundesliga and Premiership.

its clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, etc, etc.

You got these Ballon d'Or when Serie reached its pinnacle between 1982 and 1994. During those 12 years, you had no less than 10 Ballon d'Or coming from your league : Platini and Van Basten with 3 each, Rossi, Gullit, Matthaeus and Baggio.
Prior to 1982, you had only 2 Ballon d'Or over a period of 26 years : Sivori in 1961 and Rivera in 1969. You were seriously trailing behind Primera (6 Ballon d'Or), Bundesliga (8 Ballon d'Or) and the Premiership (4 Ballon d'Or). A return of only 2 Ballon d'Or over a period of 26 years is an extremely mediocre result for a league which you claim to have always been the best in the world, don't you think ?

Regardless of time length, they made an effort to relocate half the way round the world to play, they can't have disliked it that much to make that effort.


I'm not saying that they disliked, I'm saying that winning the European Cup wasn't their primary concern as it is today. Sure, it was a trophy good enough to have, but he wasn't seen as the ultimate prize at club level as today and definetely not the reason why south-americans were moving to Europe.
I was around since the late 60s, so I know what I'm talking about. The ECC simply wasn't THEIR competition and it did not have the extreme media hype of today, so it had much less weight for the south-americans. They had no inferiority complex towards Europe so winning the ECC wasn't the end all and be all of club football.
And BTW, as a side comment, we europeans had much more respect for south-american football at that time than you are willing to give them now. The nickname The King was given to Pele by europeans (more precisely, by the french press after the Tournoi de Paris from 1961) not by south-americans and I still remember how highly regarded were the brazilian teams during that time.

What I find particularly ridiculous though was that while the his own european contemporaries, who saw Pele live during his tours with Santos or at the WC with the selecao (that includes me as well), were literally showering him with praise and never seem to take into consideration this so-called superiority of the european leagues, now the youtube generation seems very eager to question Pele's status for some reasons which were never acknowledged by people from that time. That is extremely curious, at least for me.

Jumpin, you seem quite reasonable, so I'll try to talk logically. It's obvious you have a bias for Europe and especially for Serie A and someone's favorites cannot be argued so I'm not going to insist too much. But let's put aside this Pele/Maradona comparison for a moment : Pele was widely acknowledged as the best player of his generation all over the world, in South-America as well as Europe. Do you actually think that this would have happened if the level of the south-american football was not as high as the european one ? Today nobody considered Robinho or Tevez the best in the world when they were playing in South-America.
Yet 40 years ago nobody had any hesitation in nominating Pele as the best. If what you say is true, that Pele's competition was not that good, then he would not have been regarded as such. Unless you are suggesting that you are seeing something which no football expert or fan from 1965 was able to see. My generation and my father's generation did not consist exactly of a bunch of retards who would not have been able to notice the disparity between european and south-american which you seem to believe that it existed.

But, if you keep insisting that Pele's opposition was not at the level of the one from Europe and those friendly tournaments were meaningless, maybe you could also explain by what miracle a player from an inferior league who "never had the balls to test himself against the best" and never played meaningful games against european sides had come to be seen as the best in the world. And don't come with the WC argument, because Pele was not the best player of the 1958 tournament and he was already hailed as the greatest player in the world in the mid-60s.

Also, I'm pretty sure Maradona wasn't expecting to leave Barcelona so soon after he moved from Argentina, a huge club capable of winning the European Cup.

Calling Barcelona from 1982 a huge club is a little bit exaggerated. Their lack of success in the league was chronical, winning only one title in 22 years. Herrera managed to built a great side in the 50s and the team who won the title in 1959 and 1960 can be ranked among the best ever, but after 1961 they seriously declined. In 1982, they were not much better than a Valencia or AS Roma are today. A good side, capable to finish among the first, but not strong enough to become champion.
Barcelona will become a huge club only under Cruyff's tenure between 1988 and 1996.

When Maradona moved to Napoli, he managed to achieve the honour of winning the best league in the world... twice, so its still prestige, and a big footballing challenge. You make it sound like he didn't give a shi't about the football and was just interested in money, he has said he loves Napoli almost as much as Boca.

What Maradona achieved with Napoli is irrelevant. Your original point was that south-american could not even sleep at night thinking how to win the European Club. Joining a team who finished 11th in Serie is hardly a step in the right direction and suggests that the ECC was not the most important factor for a south-american player.
Of course Maradona cared about football, but what he feels NOW about Napoli it's not relevant for his decision in 1984. I seriously doubt that Maradona went there because he has suddenly discovered a particular love for Southern Italy.

If we're excavating fossils, I can give you a list of more great South Americans who were highly important that hasn't been mentioned and did come to Europe very early on.

Argies
Guillermo Stábile - Topscorer in the first ever World Cup
Attilio Demaría - runner-up in the first World Cup, then won the second with Italy
Mario Evaristo - runner-up in the first World Cup
Luis Monti - runner-up in first World Cup, winner in second with Italy, silver medal Olympian Renato Cesarini - 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Raimundo Orsi - World Cup winner with Italy, silver medal Olympian, 5 scudettos won in the world's greatest league
Alejandro Scopelli - runner-up in first World Cup
Enrique Guaita - Roma legend, won World Cup with Italy
Bruno Pesaola - Napoli legend

Uruguayans
Ernesto Mascheroni - winner in first ever World Cup
Ettore Puricelli - goalscoring legend, helped Bologna win Serie A twice
Raffaele Sansone - nothing major, just won the world's greatest league 4 times with Bologna

Paraguayans
Attila Sallustro - all-time topscorer for Napoli

Brazilians
Anfilogino Guarisi - won World Cup with Italy, played for Lazio


If you like to make such lists, I would require also that you give some feedback on those players, just as I did.

I'll stop there for now, cause it would be harsh to keep listing more, we just have to look at today too? The legacy continues, obscure players like Messi, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Tevez, Crespo, Riquelme, Robinho all play in Europe.

Not harsh at all, because you totally failed to grasp the point. The fact that you made this list has absolutely no relevance as long as an equally long list of players who stayed in SA can be made. Those seem to be players from the late 20s and early 30s, so I can't comment on them since I'm not familiar with that period. But from 40s onwards I gave you a list of all-time greats from South-America. The fact that top players from SA went to Europe does not change anything as long there is enough quality which remains at home. And, as you can see, it was.
Today the problem is that the european clubs poach practically every player who shows even the tiniest bit of skill and do that from a very early age. That did not happen in the past. Not only that there was a considerable number of players who did not made the move, ensuring a high level of quality in their home leagues, but even the others went to Europe as mature players, after staying a great number of years in their home leagues.
A Di Stefano was 27 years old when he moved to Real Madrid, Rial was 26, Schiaffino 29, Falcao 26, Angellillo 25, Amarildo 24, Evaristo 25, Santamaria 25, Julinho 26 etc.
They didn't bolted towards Europe at puberty, like most players of today, but only after achieving great success at home.
These factors you don't seem to take into consideration, instead just bringing forward the current stereotypes, on how great european football always was.

You may think what you want, but if you keep insisting with these ideas, you are not doing yourself any favors. The only thing you will achieve is not to be taken seriously by the old-timers around and you could have already seen some sarcastic comments about this.

In the almanac of every single Juve game I have, its not mentioned anywhere... are you sure it wasn't against the reserves or something? Maybe the youth team. The one one competative fixture you listed was in the Toyota Cup, a competition treated like a friendly by Europeans that nobody seems to take seriously. Hense in the modern day, we see Brazilian clubs, who no disrespect to them, clearly aren't as big as Liverpool/Barcelona winning the competition's heir in Asia.

Yes I am. It was from the Torneo Italia from 1961, organised to celebrate the centennial of the foundation of the modern Italian state. I don't know Juventus squad, but I know precisely that Sivori and Nicole, two of Juventus top-scorers during the previous season, played in that tournament. Since these 2 were among Juve's best players, it's hardly believable that Juve used them together with the youth team.

[kingkong1]

Please show me a list of dates and competitions in which Pele's team BEAT sides such as Juventus, Milan, Madrid, Barceolna. Davide Gualtieri technically scored for San Marino against England, but it doesn't mean shi't considering his side went on to lose 7-1. As I said, I was aware that Santos beat Fiorentina, but the big teams I specifically mentioned? Seems highly suspect to me, as a Juventus fan I've never of Santos beating them with PeleHope those numbers will help you:
_______________________________________________________________

I chose a small period of Pelé's Santos (1961-1963) yearly sejourns in Europe, and in this time span (2 years and 8 days) Santos - in long and tiring excursions - 'had the guts' to face in Europe (most precisely in Italy), the following local teams:

Santos 2 x 0 Juventus (1 goal by Pelé)
Santos 5 x 0 Roma (2 goals by Pelé)
Santos 4 x 1 Internazionale (1 goal by Pelé)
Brazil 0 x 3 Italy
Santos 4 x 3 Roma (2 goals by Pelé)
Santos 0 x 2 Internazionale
Santos 0 x 4 Internazionale
Santos 3 x 5 Juventus (1 goal by Pelé)



18 x 18 with 4 victories each
0, 875 Pelé's goals per game

Of course there were many other times Pelé faced Italian clubs, 99% in Italy (access the links below), with considerable advantadge to the Brazilian (specially since those games were all at the aversaries' arena, and without all those NT 'geniuses' people dare to say that were around to 'help him') :rolleyes: ...

I also chose that period, not only because to reproduce all Pelé's goals here would be too exhaustive, but also because it's the period in between the two only games Pelé's Santos and Juventus ever disputed.

Try to guess how 'armaggedonic' would be those numbers if those 'fake friendlies' (because in reality they were wars) had been played in Brazil, or in neutral stadiums!...

Below, those numbers with a little more detail:



Sunday June, 18 1961



Santos

Win
2

Juventus (Italy)
0

1

____________________________________________________________________________________


Wednesday June, 21 1961



Santos


Win5

Roma




0

2

____________________________________________________________________________________


Saturday June, 24 1961



Santos

Win
4

Internazionale
1

1



_______________________________________________________________

Sunday May, 12 1963


Brasil

Loss
0

Italy
3

0


________________________________________________________________

Saturday June, 15 1963


Santos


Win4

Roma
3

2

_______________________________________________________________
Wednesday June, 19 1963


Santos


Loss0

Internazionale




2

0




__________________________________________________________ Saturday June, 22 1963

Santos


Loss0

Milan
4

0

____________________________________________________________________________________


Wednesday June, 26 1963


Santos


Loss3

Juventus (Italy)


5

1

http://www.pele.net (http://www.pele.net/)

http://www.isfa.com/server/web/pele

[JumpinJackFlash]

For the moment, Serie A is not the best anymore.Currently World Champions? Italy, most of the players at Italian clubs.
Currently European Champions? AC Milan.
Last winner of the Ballon d'Or? Fabio Cannavaro for his season with Juventus and summer with Italy
New Ballon d'Or winner? will be Kaka for winning the European Cup with Milan
Most likely best keeper in the World? Gigi Buffon, Juventus player

As we can see, Serie A and Italian football is really hurting in recent times. These are the things that matter in the end and at the moment Serie A is still able to get its neck ahead... three Premiership teams in the semi-finals and the one Italian side still wins. Hillarious!

Actually you are applying a current paradigm to the entire history of football. I can give you a specific example when Serie A was not the best : the 1967-1980 when the italian federation imposed a ban on foreign players in Serie A. The consequence was a significant drop in the quality of the italian sides in the 70s. In the long term, it had positive effects, because it resulted in the emergence of an excellent crop of italian players in the early 80s, who will win the wc in 1982, but in the 70s Serie A was second fiddle to Bundesliga and Premiership.In Europe these countries home leagues/competitions have been going in some form for over 100 years, not just 10 years in the 70s. You can look over the entire history of them and make an evaluation based on several factors and records as I did. You argue that for around a decade Serie A wasn't as good, and in its place argue that the Premiership and Bundesliga were better? That isn't taking into account the entire history of football... and it completely ignores the fact that the years following it the Premiership then went behind and Bundesliga back, far, far behind.

I've shown you that the world's elite have been moving to it for a very long time, from the first ever topscorer at the World Cup, to Kaka today. I references the achievements, which Serie A have over the other leagues. The only team who can match the number of international achievements of AC Milan is Boca, reached more European Cup finals than any other league, clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, more people have won the World Cup while playing for Juventus than any other team in the entire world, etc.... records and things like this go on and on, taking into account a general overview and history of football. If you feel you can argue the case for another league in a similar fashion, then go ahead and feel free to present it.


As far as referring to players like Messi, Riquelme, Tevez, Ronaldinho.....as obscure is absurd and without merit.Here we have this wonderful concept

Main Entry:sar·casm http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sarcas01.wav=sarcasm%27%29)Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\ Function:noun Etymology:French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwarəs- to cutDate:1550 1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b: the use or language of sarcasm

Are you really too slow to understand obvious sarcasm in calling RONALDINHO, KAKA and MESSI obscure for christsakes? Would you have "got it" if I said David Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo are "obscure" too? Heres the point, and its going over your head.... slowly.... slowly... zooom.

Ronaldinho, Messi and Kaka are currently considered some of the best and most famous players in the world, they're global brands known to everybody know likes football..... aaaaaand, they'll be playing in European for a very long time because they known as footballers this furthers their career considerably. Football was born here and the world's elite flock to Europe to reach unquestionable heights, in these leagues there are the best European, South American, African, etc players, which makes it the world stage for club players.

You got these Ballon d'Or when Serie reached its pinnacle between 1982 and 1994. A return of only 2 Ballon d'Or over a period of 26 years is an extremely mediocre result for a league which you claim to have always been the best in the world, don't you think ?I don't see the importance of the years won, it has still produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else. You said you felt I was going only by recent events, but these honours have been built up over time. Sivori had the award as far back as 1961, Cannavaro had it in 2006 and Kaka will have it in 2007. Win.

Also, I'd like you to show me where I said it "has uninterruptedly, from moment of birth been the most elite sports league in existence". I simply said it is the world's greatest league taking into account the entire history of the game in summary, non of them have had a flawless existence, but overall, through its achievements earned I believe it has built a foothold for that honour, as I said if you think you can provide a case for an overall better league... you're free to try.
When you referenced the long list of fine South American did you ever factor in one very important thing? How many of those players actually jumped at a chance to go home and be near family? You forget that amongst many of the older players, they were rarely more than one generation off the boat.I'm well aware of their ethnic background hense why some were able to play for Italy or Spain, but what does this have to do with anything? It doesn't reverse or somehow change what happened during their careers, or lessen the fact that they played in Serie A/Europe instead of staying in SA. They have family in South America too s that clearly isn't the main factor.
And BTW, as a side comment, we europeans had much more respect for south-american football at that time than you are willing to give them now. The nickname The King was given to Pele by europeans (more precisely, by the french press after the Tournoi de Paris from 1961) not by south-americans and I still remember how highly regarded were the brazilian teams during that time.I'm not saying that I do not respect South American football, hense why out of the three players I listed earlier in this thread, two of them are Argies... I only mustered up enough Eurosnobbery to include one born in Italy. ;) The teams just do not seem as big over a summary of their entire history as Real Madrid, Juventus, AC Milan, Barcelona do, I don't think that is an unfair assesment. Even when we get past the very top couple of teams, the likes of Roma seem overall bigger than a club like Racing (who I follow a little bit).

It's obvious you have a bias for Europe and especially for Serie A and someone's favorites cannot be argued so I'm not going to insist too much. But let's put aside this Pele/Maradona comparison for a moment : Pele was widely acknowledged as the best player of his generation all over the world, in South-America as well as Europe. Do you actually think that this would have happened if the level of the south-american football was not as high as the european one ? Today nobody considered Robinho or Tevez the best in the world when they were playing in South-America.
Yet 40 years ago nobody had any hesitation in nominating Pele as the best. If what you say is true, that Pele's competition was not that good, then he would not have been regarded as such. Unless you are suggesting that you are seeing something which no football expert or fan from 1965 was able to see. My generation and my father's generation did not consist exactly of a bunch of retards who would not have been able to notice the disparity between european and south-american which you seem to believe that it existed.

But, if you keep insisting that Pele's opposition was not at the level of the one from Europe and those friendly tournaments were meaningless, maybe you could also explain by what miracle a player from an inferior league who "never had the balls to test himself against the best" and never played meaningful games against european sides had come to be seen as the best in the world. And don't come with the WC argument, because Pele was not the best player of the 1958 tournament and he was already hailed as the greatest player in the world in the mid-60s.The thing is, even before Diego there has always been some level of debate when defining the world's greatest player, Pele was even was quoted as saying this about how he has long been put against others...

"First they pitched me against Alfredo Di Stefano, then Omar Sivori, and then Maradona. First they should decide who is the best of those three, and then they'll have to accept there is no contest."

I think part of it depends on the media, Josef Bican has infact scored more goals than Pele has, but when making lists of the all-time greats he comes nowhere near it at all, not even mentioned as a footnote. And why? Because the media didn't pick up on it. Its no secret that the English language media (likely the most powerful media) loves to kiss the as's of anything to do with Brazil and attach romanticism to it, Bican playing in Austria didn't get the same. And then back to Maradona, of course the English language media will rather have somebody else than him as the "greatest", for obvious reasons, instead prefering to focus on him as a "cheat" and a drug addict.:rolleyes:

those numbers if those 'fake friendlies' (because in reality they were wars)

Friendlies are just that, friendlies. Neither team has anything real to gain or lose, its just a piss about and doesn't even go down in official records. If they're so important in football why doesn't it go down as part of official stats? Until now I've never heard somebody brag about a club friendly or try to use it as a means to prove how something is better than something else, maybe Pele fans see it differently.

Generally they're for youths to get a try out in the first team or to test a certain system, they're not playing as if their life is on the line. At the end of the day does it matter that Juve beat Santos (and Pele) in a non official game, or vica versa... does it matter that Maradona's Napoli topped sides like Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma in a real competition where league titles were on the line?... I'd say yes on the latter.

[Kulspruta]

Sure JJF, the only reason Santos would beat so many top-notch european teams is because those teams weren't trying hard at all! C'mon, how biased can a person be? First you said Pele's style was not enthralling, to witch kingkong replied with a 9 minutes video of Pele juggling the ball around his opponents. Now you're saying Pele didnt' get to prove himself against a better opposition (despite the fact that the man owned world cups in a row), and are being schooled by Tribune. Give it a rest man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_W_oR-Cn0

[JumpinJackFlash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_W_oR-Cn0

Undeniably, there is some entertainment to be derived from the footage of unofficial kick abouts in the park and you can't deny the skill. But still, I'm more of a competative football man myself.;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGMaE2RWOjg (excuse the horrible music)

[XSempreJuveX]

maradona hands down. the reason is he was the team. and no one could touch him. he was and always will be the football god

[Tribune]

Currently World Champions? Italy, most of the players at Italian clubs.
Currently European Champions? AC Milan.
Last winner of the Ballon d'Or? Fabio Cannavaro for his season with Juventus and summer with Italy
New Ballon d'Or winner? will be Kaka for winning the European Cup with Milan
Most likely best keeper in the World? Gigi Buffon, Juventus player

As we can see, Serie A and Italian football is really hurting in recent times. These are the things that matter in the end and at the moment Serie A is still able to get its neck ahead... three Premiership teams in the semi-finals and the one Italian side still wins. Hillarious!


This series of factors don't make Serie A the best league in the world. If I'm going to apply your argument to the season 2005/2006, what it results ? Ballon d'Or playing in Spain, spanish teams winning both CL and the UEFA Cup, no Serie A team in the finals, only one italian team in the semifinals, etc.


In Europe these countries home leagues/competitions have been going in some form for over 100 years, not just 10 years in the 70s. You can look over the entire history of them and make an evaluation based on several factors and records as I did. You argue that for around a decade Serie A wasn't as good, and in its place argue that the Premiership and Bundesliga were better? That isn't taking into account the entire history of football... and it completely ignores the fact that the years following it the Premiership then went behind and Bundesliga back, far, far behind.

I've shown you that the world's elite have been moving to it for a very long time, from the first ever topscorer at the World Cup, to Kaka today. I references the achievements, which Serie A have over the other leagues. The only team who can match the number of international achievements of AC Milan is Boca, reached more European Cup finals than any other league, clubs have produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else, more people have won the World Cup while playing for Juventus than any other team in the entire world, etc.... records and things like this go on and on, taking into account a general overview and history of football. If you feel you can argue the case for another league in a similar fashion, then go ahead and feel free to present it.



Seriously ? Taking into account the entire history of football... Fine. Take a look here :

http://www.europeancups.bravepages.com/

Historically, Serie A is the third ranked league in terms of overall results in all the european cups between 1955 and 2004.

The first is (big surprise) the Bundesliga, with a total of 2978 points, from 1105 victories, 475 draws and 733 losses.
Second is Primera Division, with 2496 points, and Third is Serie A with 2489 points.

In terms of european competition won, you are not the first, Primera is and Serie A is tied with England :

Primera : 29 trophies won
Serie A : 28 trophies won ;
Premiership : 28 trophies won ;

You are first in finals played, 54 towards 52 of Spain, but you tie at semifinalist, 86 both Serie A and Primera Division.
You are first only if we take into account Supercups and Intercontinental and only because here you have a big advantage. You have a total of 44 trophies won towards 38 of Spain.
The difference comes though from the fact that the Intercontinental was created only in 1960, which resulted in Real Madrid not being able to compete by default in 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959.
The supercup also dates in 1972, which means that Spain lost 7 possible supercup trophies, towards only 6 of Italy.

I'm not making a case for other league because I'm aware of the stupidity of trying to extend such an analysis to the entire history of football, but maybe it would be a good idea to drop your italian arrogance.

I don't see the importance of the years won, it has still produced more Ballon d'Or winners than anybody else. You said you felt I was going only by recent events, but these honours have been built up over time. Sivori had the award as far back as 1961, Cannavaro had it in 2006 and Kaka will have it in 2007. Win.

Dude, logic isn't your strength ? We were talking about a specific time period, the period of 1956-1974. You used the number of Ballon d'Or as argument for how great was Serie A. What is the relevance of those Ballon d'Or awards for 1956-1974, since during that period you had very few of those, 60% of those awards being won during your golden age from 1982 to 1994 ?

Also, I'd like you to show me where I said it "has uninterruptedly, from moment of birth been the most elite sports league in existence". I simply said it is the world's greatest league taking into account the entire history of the game in summary, non of them have had a flawless existence, but overall, through its achievements earned I believe it has built a foothold for that honour, as I said if you think you can provide a case for an overall better league... you're free to try.


Well, you constantly kept refering to Serie A as the greatest league in the world, regardless of time period, starting from Raffaele Sansone and ending with Maradona.

The thing is, even before Diego there has always been some level of debate when defining the world's greatest player, Pele was even was quoted as saying this about how he has long been put against others...

"First they pitched me against Alfredo Di Stefano, then Omar Sivori, and then Maradona. First they should decide who is the best of those three, and then they'll have to accept there is no contest."

I think part of it depends on the media, Josef Bican has infact scored more goals than Pele has, but when making lists of the all-time greats he comes nowhere near it at all, not even mentioned as a footnote. And why? Because the media didn't pick up on it. Its no secret that the English language media (likely the most powerful media) loves to kiss the as's of anything to do with Brazil and attach romanticism to it, Bican playing in Austria didn't get the same. And then back to Maradona, of course the English language media will rather have somebody else than him as the "greatest", for obvious reasons, instead prefering to focus on him as a "cheat" and a drug addict.


That's not an answer. You jumped to the effects avoiding to explain the cause. Let me rephrase : why the media was so head over heels about Pele if he was playing in an inferior league ? And leave Maradona alone, I'm talking about Pele's contemporaries, when Diego was still in his diapers.
As you said, Bican was not considered for this honor, because his league was not good enough. Why did Pele constitute an exception ?
Try a better answer because your previous one was pretty pathetic.

[Tribune]

Undeniably, there is some entertainment to be derived from the footage of unofficial kick abouts in the park and you can't deny the skill. But still, I'm more of a competative football man myself.;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGMaE2RWOjg (excuse the horrible music)

One final question though : since you had to ask me for information about Pele's record against european clubs, do you actually consider yourself competent enough to compare Pele and Maradona ?
That's all I want to know from you.

[kingkong1]

I'LL HAVE TO REPEAT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJackFlash http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13328634#post13328634)
Please show me a list of dates and competitions in which Pele's team BEAT sides such as Juventus, Milan, Madrid, Barceolna. Davide Gualtieri technically scored for San Marino against England, but it doesn't mean shi't considering his side went on to lose 7-1. As I said, I was aware that Santos beat Fiorentina, but the big teams I specifically mentioned? Seems highly suspect to me, as a Juventus fan I've never of Santos beating them with Pele

Hope those numbers will help you:
___________________________________ ____________________________

I chose a small period of Pelé's Santos (1961-1963) yearly sejourns in Europe, and in this time span (2 years and 8 days) Santos - in long and tiring excursions - 'had the guts' to face in Europe (most precisely in Italy), the following local teams:

Santos 2 x 0 Juventus (1 goal by Pelé)
Santos 5 x 0 Roma (2 goals by Pelé)
Santos 4 x 1 Internazionale (1 goal by Pelé)
Brazil 0 x 3 Italy
Santos 4 x 3 Roma (2 goals by Pelé)
Santos 0 x 2 Internazionale
Santos 0 x 4 Internazionale
Santos 3 x 5 Juventus (1 goal by Pelé)



18 x 18 with 4 victories each
0, 875 Pelé's goals per game

Of course there were many other times Pelé faced Italian clubs, 99% in Italy (access the links below), with considerable advantadge to the Brazilian (specially since those games were all at the aversaries' arena, and without all those NT 'geniuses' people dare to say that were around to 'help him') :rolleyes: ...

I also chose that period, not only because to reproduce all Pelé's goals here would be too exhaustive, but also because it's the period in between the two only games Pelé's Santos and Juventus ever disputed.

Try to guess how 'armaggedonic' would be those numbers if those 'fake friendlies' (because in reality they were wars) had been played in Brazil, or in neutral stadiums!...


Below, those numbers with a little more detail:




Sunday June, 18 1961






Santos

Win

2


Juventus (Italy)

0



1


___________________________________ ___________________________________ ______________



Wednesday June, 21 1961




Santos




Win 5





Roma





0



2


___________________________________ ___________________________________ ______________



Saturday June, 24 1961




Santos

Win

4


Internazionale

1



1




___________________________________ ____________________________


Sunday May, 12 1963



Brasil

Loss

0


Italy

3



0



___________________________________ _____________________________


Saturday June, 15 1963



Santos




Win 4





Roma

3



2


___________________________________ ____________________________

Wednesday June, 19 1963



Santos




Loss 0





Internazionale





2



0





___________________________________ _______________________Saturday June, 22 1963


Santos




Loss 0





Milan

4



0


___________________________________ ___________________________________ ______________



Wednesday June, 26 1963



Santos




Loss 3





Juventus (Italy)



5



1



http://www.pele.net (http://www.pele.net/)



http://www.isfa.com/server/web/pele


SILENCE.

And when you are confronted by Kulspruta with a video like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_W_oR-Cn0

Where all you see is Pelé destroying European defenses in 99% official games (specially the famous Italian ones, very well represented in the footage by Milan and Inter), you still have the guts to say that those teams 'didn't try'???...

Man, even if they were friendlies, all what the adversaries most wanted in the world in those true planetarium classics was to crush Santos, the club over those years that was 'robbing' the bread of their children (if not so much actually, for sure symbolically, since all those children and non-fanatic rooters of the world simply...adored Pelé and Cy.

So, a group of exotic Afro-Brazilians goes TO YOUR HOUSE in order to massacre your teams, and still earn all the glitter of the eyes of your sons & and all you wish as the extreme European gentlemen you are is to shake hands with them?...

Give us a break, JJF!...

[Tribune]

BTW, there is something else I wanted to say which I forgot. According to you, these seem to be the criterias for a league being the best in the world :


Currently World Champions? Italy, most of the players at Italian clubs.
Currently European Champions? AC Milan.
Last winner of the Ballon d'Or? Fabio Cannavaro for his season with Juventus and summer with Italy
New Ballon d'Or winner? will be Kaka for winning the European Cup with Milan
Most likely best keeper in the World? Gigi Buffon, Juventus player



Am I allowed to take your argument in my arsenal and apply it to Brazil from 1962 ?

World champions ? Checked. Brazil was world champion using only players from brazilian clubs.
World club champions ? Checked. Santos, after a historical 5 - 2 demolition of the european champions Benfica in their own stadium.
WC MVP : Garrincha, playing in Botafogo.
WC Silverball : Vava, from Palmeiras.
WC Dream-team members : Djalma Santos, Zagalo, Zito, Vava, Garrincha.
Best player in the world ? Checked : Pele from Santos.
Second best player in the world ? Checked : Garrincha from Botafogo ;
Best midfielder in the world : Didi from Botafogo ;
Best defender in the world : Djalma Santos from Palmeiras.

Practically Brazil met all the criterias you brought forward (with the exception of the keeper, although Gilmar was among the best at that time) for considering Serie A as the best league in the world.
Of course, I fully expect you to say that it means nothing and Brazil still had inferior football to Europe, bla, bla, bla and continue your show of denial, ignoring every piece of evidence, every testimony and every argument brought forward which does not suit your beliefs...

[JumpinJackFlash]

Where all you see is Pelé destroying European defenses in 99% official games (specially the famous Italian ones, very well represented in the footage by Milan and Inter), you still have the guts to say that those teams 'didn't try'???...

Man, even if they were friendlies, all what the adversaries most wanted in the world in those true planetarium classics was to crush Santos, the club over those years that was 'robbing' the bread of their children (if not so much actually, for sure symbolically, since all those children and non-fanatic rooters of the world simply...adored Pelé and Cy.

So, a group of exotic Afro-Brazilians goes TO YOUR HOUSE in order to massacre your teams, and still earn all the glitter of the eyes of your sons & and all you wish as the extreme European gentlemen you are is to shake hands with them?...

Give us a break, JJF!...The majority of the games involving Italian clubs listed are friendlies, apart from one official one against Milan in a tinpot competition that Europeans just play for fun. When we look in the almanacs, friendlies 99% of the time do not even warrant a mention because its unofficial competition, they certainly don't count towards official club stats or the playing stats of the men involved.

And even in the games listed Juventus beat Santos 5-3, so I guess by your logic that kick around in the park proves that John Charles and Omar Sivori are better than Pele? (if they were even playing instead of the reserves) I know a few of the Brazilians players love to try unfairly bolster their goals/games record by including friendlies and charity games (heres looking at Romario), but they do not officially count and are not officially recognised. What next are we gonna start pretending goals in training sessions are definitive and matter?

For example, in the pre-season friendly this year Juventus beat Roma 5-2, but then in the actual competative game with something on the line it was far closer and a draw. Why? Because friendlies aren't serious. I'd love to take the Brazilian attitude and pretend that gives Juve fans bragging rights over Roma, but it doesn't cut it.

maybe it would be a good idea to drop your italian arrogance.
I thought we was debating the best footballer ever? I didn't know we were handing out silly ethnic stereotypes.