View Full Version : Powell Regrets US Actions in Chile, 1973
DoctorJones24
16 Apr 2003, 04:57 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030416/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/powell_chile_4
Fascinating stuff. Doesn't seem to help the state department's current defense against a law suit brought by 8 Chileans against US support for Pinochet's atrocities.
cossack
16 Apr 2003, 05:13 PM
well, it would have sold iraq much easier if it didn't happen
irishFS1921
16 Apr 2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by cossack
well, it would have sold iraq much easier if it didn't happen
apparantly you're unfirmiliar with something called "american media coverage" that tends to change everything.
cossack
16 Apr 2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by irishFS1921
apparantly you're unfirmiliar with something called "american media coverage" that tends to change everything.
"apparantly" you're "unfirmiliar" (is this a bushism by the way) with sarcasm
El_Maestro
16 Apr 2003, 08:06 PM
This confirms what I've thought for a long time, Colin Powell is the only high ranking official of this government who deserves any respect and who can be considered a decent human being.
If the Republicans had any brains they would nominate him instead of Junior for president, of course that won't happen, he's way too humanistic for GOP's core following, and he's African American, a definitive no-no for hawks and pals.
verybdog
16 Apr 2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by El_Maestro
This confirms what I've thought for a long time, Colin Powell is the only high ranking official of this government who deserves any respect and who can be considered a decent human being.
If the Republicans had any brains they would nominate him instead of Junior for president, of course that won't happen, he's way too humanistic for GOP's core following, and he's African American, a definitive no-no for hawks and pals.
Of course, only if he had resigned before the Iraq war.
CrewDust
16 Apr 2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by El_Maestro
This confirms what I've thought for a long time, Colin Powell is the only high ranking official of this government who deserves any respect and who can be considered a decent human being.
If the Republicans had any brains they would nominate him instead of Junior for president, of course that won't happen, he's way too humanistic for GOP's core following, and he's African American, a definitive no-no for hawks and pals.
I think it has more w/ him being pro-choice.
DJPoopypants
16 Apr 2003, 11:03 PM
I dunno - call me a cynic, but if he said something, there's a reason behind it - unlikely a personal reason of conscience, more likely a "what will I gain by saying this" reason.
That's politics.
Not that its bad to hear, or surprising that the state department is disavowing his comments...but what was he really trying to do?
Originally posted by El_Maestro
This confirms what I've thought for a long time, Colin Powell is the only high ranking official of this government who deserves any respect and who can be considered a decent human being.
If the Republicans had any brains they would nominate him instead of Junior for president, of course that won't happen, he's way too humanistic for GOP's core following, and he's African American, a definitive no-no for hawks and pals.
At one point there was quite an attempt to get him to run after the 1991 Gulf War; he said at that time he wouldn't run. Maybe his opinion has changed.
joseph pakovits
17 Apr 2003, 09:26 AM
Freaking Powell, going and letting the cat out of the bag!!
Oh well, there goes Bill's ability to go into denial regarding that particular event.
Richth76
17 Apr 2003, 09:40 AM
Unfortunately this was one of the negative effects of the cold war.
Let's come up with a list of U.S. supported, anti-communist dictators from 1960-1985.
Mobutu Sese Seko - Zaire
Pinochet - Chile
Somoza - Nicaragua
Then let's discuss how many "democracies" we have helped establish. Save the Marshall Plan, I can't think of any. That's why I'm just a bit cynical about the possible outcomes in Iraq.
DoctorJones24
17 Apr 2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Richth76
Let's come up with a list of U.S. supported, anti-communist dictators from 1960-1985.
I'll beat Universal to the punch here. But here's one from 3rd World Traveler.com. Oddly, Saddam is not on this list--seems like a prime example to me. The page also has brief descriptions of each guy.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dictators/Friendly_Dictators.html
Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Botha, P.W. ---------------------------------------South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hitler, Adolf ---------------------------------------Germany
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot---------------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. --------------------------Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. -------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan
joseph pakovits
17 Apr 2003, 10:53 AM
To be fair, not all of these guys were U.S. created or supported. But far, FAR too many of them were for the "a few bad apples" or "a few mistakes were made" theories to hold water.
YITBOS
17 Apr 2003, 11:36 AM
Are we targeting U.S. supported, anti-communist dictators from 1960-1985 or something else? The list contains the likes of Hitler (presumably dead before 1960) and Batista (who resigned from power before our timeline starts),
I'll agree with you that the list is bigger than it should be. However, there are names on this list that shouldn't be there.
Richth76
17 Apr 2003, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the link Dr. J.
Now where's Democracy we've spread? South Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, and... yes, I know most of the former Communist Bloc, but we didn't give it to them, they way we're trying to in Iraq and Afganistan.
DoctorJones24
17 Apr 2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by YITBOS
Are we targeting U.S. supported, anti-communist dictators from 1960-1985 or something else? The list contains the likes of Hitler (presumably dead before 1960) and Batista (who resigned from power before our timeline starts),
I'll agree with you that the list is bigger than it should be. However, there are names on this list that shouldn't be there.
Yep, I didn't feel like going through and culling out the "stretchers" on the list, as Mark Twain would put it, or the ones that didn't fit specificaly in the Cold War. The Hitler one is interesting only for the corporate American aspect--doesn't really implicate the government at all.
Anyway, let's get the list of "good" interventions going, so we can put together a nice little utilitarian "miltiary intervention-hedonistic calculus."
joseph pakovits
17 Apr 2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by DoctorJones24
Anyway, let's get the list of "good" interventions going, so we can put together a nice little utilitarian "miltiary intervention-hedonistic calculus."
Would this include private "paramilitary" death squads and other terrorists or just official governments?
DoctorJones24
17 Apr 2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by joseph pakovits
Would this include private "paramilitary" death squads and other terrorists or just official governments?
Well, since we (I) cast such a wide net on the negative side, it'd be only fair to do the same on the other.
joseph pakovits
17 Apr 2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by DoctorJones24
Well, since we (I) cast such a wide net on the negative side, it'd be only fair to do the same on the other.
Hmmm... I'm not sure if this answers the question. So I guess we need to limit ourselves official U.S. government actions and the actions of official governments created and/or maintained by the U.S.
Maybe our taking out Noriega counts as "good" but the fact that we were largely responsible for creating and maintaining him was "bad".
Same for Saddam.
And for Korea. Saving them from NK was good but then creatuing and propping up anti-democratic military regimes was bad.