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F96
12 Nov 2006, 08:28 PM
Hope this thread has a better fate then pt.I. Translated an interview that appeared on SPIEGEL online (http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,447426,00.html).

"Insulted by opponents, fans and referees"

When Mario Gatti and his club Yesilyurt play in the east the fans chant: "The stupid Kanaken (denigrative term for Turks)

are coming." (sounds a little weird to me, I'm pretty sure stronger language was used)

For Spiegel Online he tells about accosting linesmen (better translation for 'pöbelnde'?)- and a speaker who rejoices when "finally a German" is subbed in.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Herr Gatti, this weekend a linesman was beaten down in Brandenburg, turkish youth players klobbed their opponents. Are you surprised about these incidents?

Martino Gatti: No. I feel it's has become more and more aggressive on and beside the football field over the last years.

Since I've been playing for the Berlin club SV Yesilyrt in the Oberliga Nordost I experience this especially intensly. When we play away in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Brandenburg we face an extreme hostile atmosphere.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You are of Italian heritage. Your club has turkish roots. Was awaits a foreign team in the east?

Gatti: Hostility and insults of any kind. We are being insulted by our opponents, referees and spectators. Before, during and after the game. No matter if we won or lost.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What happens exactly?

Gatti: It begins when we arrive by bus. Then some are already chanting: "The stupid Kanaken are coming." During the game the insults pick up. It's It is particularly bad when we win. Then the atmosphere gets extremely aggressiv. In Neustrelitz our opponents didn't allow us to take a shower. One time we had to wait in our bus for 30 minutes until the police had calmed down the mob and we could drive home.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do the those responsible act?

Gatti: They often ignore these incidents. In Neustrelitz even the management incited the fans against us. The stadium speaker commented on a substitution of one of our players: "Finally a German."

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do the referees protect you?

Gatti: They don't do enough. Many pretend to not hear anything. If you complain you risk getting a yellow card. One linesmen even said to our men on the bench: "Go back to where you came from."

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Did you experience fisticuffs (?) in the Oberliga?

Gatti: No. But that's also because we try to avoid conflicts. In Torgelow there were locals on the field when we wanted to jog after the game. You could feel the tension. Our coach send us back inside because of that. I'm sure: If we reacted verbally against the hostilities more often there would be more fisticuffs.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How many get abusive?

Gatti: That's difficult to say. Of course it's a minority. But when there's only 200 spectators it's easy to get heard. When the majority doesn't react you get the impression that everyone thinks similar.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How does the increasing xenophobia show itself?

Gatti: Before there were single remarks behind one's back. Now everyting gets said very openly. The the inhibition threshold has dropped and the acceptance rises. I've been playing in the Oberliga for four years. In the beginning I tried to talk myself into believing: It's not that bad. It's going to stop one time. But far from it, it's getting worse. It's very tough to be exposed to this every week, year after year.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Holger Fuchs, the executive of the north-eastern German football association (NOFV) disagrees with the claim that the situation got worse. Despite the request to report any such incidents not more complaints have been filed.

Gatti: I understand Mr. Fuchs. I'm afraid we and the other foreign clubs don't do enough here. Moral courage is missing. Two years ago when we played at BFC Dynamo with Yesliyurt they threw flat bread at us. The press reportet the incident but we didn't do anything. BFC Dynamo wasn't punished. The clubs shy the amount of work a complaint means. They say: This will amount to nothing, or: nobody is going to believe us. Furthermore people are afraid of being discriminated against by the referees even more when it's known that one has complained. I myself would write a complaint everty time. We have to fight back, otherwise nothing's going to happen. It's not like these are exceptions. Every two weeks something is happening.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: BFC Dynamo ist known for having violent rightist extremist fans. What actions can such a club take against the xenophobia of it's spectators?

Gatti: That is a really difficult example. Different to other clubs here it's not a minority that has been noticeable. I have played there myself for two years. I didn't know anything about the BFC fans when I signed.
Hier müssen Aktionen mit Signalwirkung gestartet werden (No idea how to translate. Google says: Here actions with signal effect must be started. ;) ). But the club is afraid to put off its fans.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How could such actions look like?

Gatti: I played for St. Pauly in the early nineties. They also had their share of right wing extremist fans. The club and fans fought against them though. Initiatives like "St.-Pauli-Fans gegen Rechts" were founded and fan tournaments against foreign fan groups took place. The stadium magazine took a firm stand. Step after step the extremists stood alone. However the state, communities and football federations have to help the clubs as well.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: After the recent bad riots in Berlin and Augsburg the DFB has announced at the "violence summit" it will fight racism and xenophobia
.
Gatti: I really hope that things will take off from now. However it's a pity that riots like in Berlin and Augsburg have to happen for actions to be taken. There have been alarming incidents before.

Das Interview führte Johannes Kopp

F96
16 Nov 2006, 04:42 PM
I just realized that when I read the David Stokes to Erfurt thread (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437735) over at the Yank Abroad forum I immediately thought to myself: "God, I hope he's not black!".

I really feel bad for that but...

Pakalolo
11 Dec 2006, 09:06 AM
NSR- but fits in well...

another Spiegel article [in German] (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,446805,00.html)

Pakalolo
02 Aug 2007, 10:16 AM
der Stürmer (http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,497436,00.html) [in German]

Alex_K
02 Aug 2007, 02:16 PM
der Stürmer (http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,497436,00.html) [in German]

Never liked that guy anyway :D.

P.S.: awesome link title.

Schwalker
02 Aug 2007, 04:17 PM
Kanaken or originally "Rührpott-kanaken" have been used about footy fans in the Rührgebeit since the 20´s actually...:cool:


But yes, there is some racism around, particularly in some areas but it´s a far cry from what it´s like in say Poland or Hungary.
That said it´s certainly not a problem I´d like to see ignored, it´s no secret that the NRW Neo-Nazi movement that failed to get a foothold amongst Schalke or Dortmund fans nowadays are targeting Mönchengladbach fans...troubles ahead for sure!

F96
09 Aug 2007, 01:34 AM
Kanaken or originally "Rührpott-kanaken" have been used about footy fans in the Rührgebeit since the 20´s actually...:cool:

But that's different. That's like Ajax fans calling themselves Kakerlaken.

When Schalke came to Hannover with 15.000 fans I hardly saw a Turkish looking person.
That's odd for a team from the Ruhrpott isn't it?
All those fans chanting "Ruhrputtkanacken - wir sind..." were NOT Turks.

There's a difference between calling yourself and your fellow Germans Kanaken and calling a team like Yesilurt Kanaken.

Schwalker
09 Aug 2007, 11:26 AM
But that's different. That's like Ajax fans calling themselves Kakerlaken.

When Schalke came to Hannover with 15.000 fans I hardly saw a Turkish looking person.
That's odd for a team from the Ruhrpott isn't it?
All those fans chanting "Ruhrputtkanacken - wir sind..." were NOT Turks.

There's a difference between calling yourself and your fellow Germans Kanaken and calling a team like Yesilurt Kanaken.


Not that odd really...Schalke is mostly the second club for most turks in the area (Fenerbahce and Galatasaray loyalties are strong) but that said we got loads of young immigrants and/or their kids playing for the clubs youth teams.

And yes, there is a difference if we call ourselves Kanaken compared to chanting it to a turkish team...Not that we would do so, the confusion would be total..:D

As for the big issue in the thread racism or rather tribalism is always with us as humans, It´s part of the animal inside I guess.
But there is no need to let it express itself in German football, mind you..the lower the divisions the more of it you will see.

kultovbela
20 Aug 2007, 12:21 PM
Did not realize it was that bad...nor did I realize that St Pauli was known for it's fans in a negative way either. This is quite the opposite today, is it not (for St. Pauli and its fans, not the other stuff)?

Very interesting article, none the less. Thanks.

Pakalolo
20 Aug 2007, 01:51 PM
what a white pig (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/368821/) :rolleyes:

Weidenfeller supposedly called Asamoah a 'black pig'.

kultovbela
20 Aug 2007, 02:45 PM
what a white pig (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/368821/) :rolleyes:

Weidenfeller supposedly called Asamoah a 'black pig'.

I love online translations...don't take my expressions into the mouth, read it yourself.

And what is "hinreissen?" (Fined? Suspended? Spanked? Shot?...just curious)


BVB: Rassismus reproach against goal keepers
Determination against Weidenfeller
The DFB committee of control introduced determinations against the Dortmunder goal keeper novel Weidenfeller. The reason: The reproach of a racistic offense stands against Schalkes national player Gerald Asamoah in the area.
http://mediadb.kicker.de/news/1000/1020/1100/3000/artikel/579351/180x135_qTj5196otX.jpeg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:openZoom%28368821,%202,%20600%29) Could Weidenfeller be hinreissen to a racistic remark?
According to Asamoah Weidenfeller it is in the 51. Minute of the Revierderbys on Saturday (4:1 for Schalke) as a "black pig" insulted.
Asamoah said to the WDR television: "in such a play words always fall. But if one hears such a thing, one is simply only disappointed. One may not say that. Weidenfeller apologized still during the play with me. He repented it. I do not know however, why he did not admit it after the play. He is to say the truth."
The DFB committee of control requested, wants both professionals to statements however first the official report of arbitrator Knut Kircher (gang castle) to wait for.
Weidenfeller denied the reproaches: It would never take Rassisti expressions into the mouth.

Pakalolo
20 Aug 2007, 02:51 PM
I love online translations...don't take my expressions into the mouth, read it yourself.

And what is "hinreissen?" (Fined? Suspended? Spanked? Shot?...just curious)


BVB: Rassismus reproach against goal keepers
Determination against Weidenfeller
The DFB committee of control introduced determinations against the Dortmunder goal keeper novel Weidenfeller. The reason: The reproach of a racistic offense stands against Schalkes national player Gerald Asamoah in the area.
http://mediadb.kicker.de/news/1000/1020/1100/3000/artikel/579351/180x135_qTj5196otX.jpeg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:openZoom%28368821,%202,%20600%29) Could Weidenfeller be hinreissen to a racistic remark?
According to Asamoah Weidenfeller it is in the 51. Minute of the Revierderbys on Saturday (4:1 for Schalke) as a "black pig" insulted.
Asamoah said to the WDR television: "in such a play words always fall. But if one hears such a thing, one is simply only disappointed. One may not say that. Weidenfeller apologized still during the play with me. He repented it. I do not know however, why he did not admit it after the play. He is to say the truth."
The DFB committee of control requested, wants both professionals to statements however first the official report of arbitrator Knut Kircher (gang castle) to wait for.
Weidenfeller denied the reproaches: It would never take Rassisti expressions into the mouth.


sorry, I had no time to translate.

hinreißen=to get carried away (in an emotional way)

Schwalker
20 Aug 2007, 05:40 PM
Well, calling someone a "Schwarze Schwein" is not OK....Had he said "Blau Schwein" no one would have cared, least of all Asamoah...

Borussia
21 Aug 2007, 06:04 PM
Weidenfeller supposedly called Asamoah a 'black pig'.

Weidenfeller is a 'white pig' then...:p

F96
11 Apr 2008, 11:29 AM
Oberliga clubs Hallescher FC will lose three points after it's fans shouted "Juden Jena" (Juden = Jews) in the game against CZ Jena.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,546689,00.html

I think it's nice that finally things like that are not being ignored.
I could show you at least 10 videos about "jews" used as an insult in German stadiums and until now nobody seemed to care.

Example (0:52):
bnChywVUlgg


Remember that video of Braunschweig fans shouting "Juden Hannoi" at Hannover central station.
BP6UlLfDF9k

It's a common occurence in Germany.

And what about "giypsy" or "asylum seekers" chants that are used frequently in stadiums around Germany. Are they less serious? Why not deduct points for that?

kultovbela
11 Apr 2008, 04:34 PM
Oberliga clubs Hallescher FC will lose three points after it's fans shouted "Juden Jena" (Juden = Jews) in the game against CZ Jena.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,546689,00.html

I think it's nice that finally things like that are not being ignored.
I could show you at least 10 videos about "jews" used as an insult in German stadiums and until now nobody seemed to care.



Seriously!? I'd say the work against anti-semitism post WWII has had a backlash, but part of me wonders has this always been around ... or never really went away? Either way it's hard to believe it's been basically ignored until now.

Alex_K
11 Apr 2008, 05:54 PM
Seriously!? I'd say the work against anti-semitism post WWII has had a backlash, but part of me wonders has this always been around ... or never really went away? Either way it's hard to believe it's been basically ignored until now.

Never went away. The NPD got their best ever election results in the 1960s and 70s after all (4,3 % in the 1969 general election, for example). I've actually witnessed quite a few antisemite chants first hand when I started to go to football matches 15 years or so ago, and it has become much better here compared to back then (as F96s video shows it still exists of course, but mostly outside of the stadium). Lower level football in former East Germany seems to be a whole other issue, though (but it should be said that studies actually point towards antisemitism being more frequent in former West Germany in the general population).

Projekt4
11 Apr 2008, 06:26 PM
Seriously!? I'd say the work against anti-semitism post WWII has had a backlash, but part of me wonders has this always been around ... or never really went away? Either way it's hard to believe it's been basically ignored until now.

Stupidity cannot be eradicated, neither in Germany nor elsewhere.

Part of the problem is that because of the history and the general condemnation there is just no provocation that "works better" in Germany than antisemitic insults, spraying swastikas etc. It's by far the most outrageous thing you can do, so it has its unique attraction.

Schwalker
11 Apr 2008, 07:40 PM
Stupidity cannot be eradicated, neither in Germany nor elsewhere.

Part of the problem is that because of the history and the general condemnation there is just no provocation that "works better" in Germany than antisemitic insults, spraying swastikas etc. It's by far the most outrageous thing you can do, so it has its unique attraction.

It´s also the norm around several clubs in countries like Poland, Russia, Ukraina, Bulgaria and others. Countries that historically have never been generous towards their jewish minority...Pogroms etc

But Poland is still the worst case I think, but hopefully they will tidy it up a bit before the Euro2012.

sportfriend
11 Apr 2008, 08:14 PM
this is the world game, followed by the world.

Racism will never die in the world, thus we will always be seeing it within this sport.

and Poland is going to have to take another generation at least to "clean up" their football problems.

sorry for my pessimistic opinions ;)