Hungary 1956

[Anthony]

October 23rd is usually the date given for the start of the Hungarian Revolt, so it is now 50 years on. Hungary is now a parliamentary democracy.

Any thoughts? A good friend of my parents married one of the "56ers" who came to the US after the failure of the revolt, so I have always been interested in it.

Was Radio Free Europe to blame, in that it gave false expectations to the anti-communists? Was Ike to blame as he did not send material help to the rebels? Were the British, French and Israelis to blame, as they chose that moment to invade the Suez Canal?

Or could anything realistically have been done?


(Ironically, today, the Socialist Party, the descendents of the Hungarian communist regime is in power and fired rubber bullets on protestors.)

[HeadHunter]

Supposedly there is a new voluminous history on this topic- it was profiled very favorably in the last weeks Economist

[gremista]

The Economist of last week had a review of a half dozen new books that have come out recently, might be a good place to start.

...there has also been a series of articles on www.eurotrib.com that are pretty good concerning the history of 56. I believe two the the five planned articles have been posted

The rubber bullets....well, first i would question the word protestors. There were 100,000 people peacefully protesting just hours before, with no incidents. The group that continued through the night and battled the police were mostly made up of fringe right wingers and football holligans. This is not to say there are not problems here...but the images that have been shown in westenr media outlets are someowhat misleading

FYI, the Socialists are the former communists. However, they are more neo liberal than any group in Hungary at the moment. The opposition, the right wing Fidesz is very nationalistic and would like to nationalize some parts of the economy. Thus, in some ways, left is right and right is left in Hungary at the moment

You may also wish to check out two movies (cannot remmeber names at this point) that deal with famous water polo match between Hungary and USSR at the Melbourne Olympics of 56. One of them, I believe, was produced in part by Tarantino, he other is a straight Hungarian production. I will try and find the names in English

[Anthony]

The rubber bullets....well, first i would question the word protestors. There were 100,000 people peacefully protesting just hours before, with no incidents. The group that continued through the night and battled the police were mostly made up of fringe right wingers and football holligans. This is not to say there are not problems here...but the images that have been shown in westenr media outlets are someowhat misleading


Actually, the US media has pretty much ignored the whole thing to go with 24 hour coverage of dirty messages a now former Congressman sent to the high school age Congressional pages.

As for the protests, it tends to be that way. Protests are a great idiotr magnet, and from what I saw, the problems seemed to be with far-right wing protesters near, but not joined with, the main protest. I just thought it ironic.

When I was in college studying history, I once thought of writing a paper blaming the failure of the 1956 revolt on the combination of the Suez crisis diverting attention and European troops away from Central Europe and the presidential election (as Stevenson would portray Eisenhower as a warmoger). Now however, it appears that Eisenhower thought the revolt doomed from the begining and Suez and the election played no role.

It still is an open question as to what could have been done. The US could have recognized the new government and sent in aid, but frankly, was that a realistic option? The Yalta issue is still openly debated in the US. My parents always thought FDR "betrayed" the Eastern Europeans, while my feeling is that based on the realities on the ground, there was nothing that could have been done and the policy chosen (basically, holding a defensive line in Gemany while nipping at communist satelites elsewhere) was the correct policy.

[gremista]

Actually, the US media has pretty much ignored the whole thing to go with 24 hour coverage of dirty messages a now former Congressman sent to the high school age Congressional pages.


Interesting. CNN-International and BBC have had considerable coverage. I assummed from all the calls and e-mails I recieved that there was significant coverage back home. Might be that people back home know I am here and look for stories on Hungary?

As for the protests, it tends to be that way. Protests are a great idiotr magnet, and from what I saw, the problems seemed to be with far-right wing protesters near, but not joined with, the main protest. I just thought it ironic.
Too true. But many comments I have heard from others showed that many people felt the riots and the demonstrations were one and the same.


It still is an open question as to what could have been done. The US could have recognized the new government and sent in aid, but frankly, was that a realistic option? The Yalta issue is still openly debated in the US. My parents always thought FDR "betrayed" the Eastern Europeans, while my feeling is that based on the realities on the ground, there was nothing that could have been done and the policy chosen (basically, holding a defensive line in Gemany while nipping at communist satelites elsewhere) was the correct policy.

Agreed. There was not much the US could do that might not have spun out of control, possibly resulting in a shooting war in Europe only a little more than a decade after the end of WWII. Much of the criticism here was that Radio Free Europe encouraged the uprising and implied that aid was coming. But I think the uprising would have occurred irregardless. One thing that I have learned is how spontaneous this whole thing was. No one (Hungarian governemnt, USSR, Americans,etc) saw it coming nor had any idea how fast it would spread across the country and the population.

[gremista]

As for the protests, it tends to be that way. Protests are a great idiotr magnet, and from what I saw, the problems seemed to be with far-right wing protesters near, but not joined with, the main protest. I just thought it ironic.



Another strange angle...the TV building that was the focus of the initial protests a few weeks back has a plaque on it in memory of the Communists who were killed during the uprising of 56. There is nothing on the building that is dedicated to those who died in the uprising against the Communists or int he purges that happened after the revolt was put down (though there are other monuments around the city)

[Anthony]

Much of the criticism here was that Radio Free Europe encouraged the uprising and implied that aid was coming. But I think the uprising would have occurred irregardless. One thing that I have learned is how spontaneous this whole thing was. No one (Hungarian governemnt, USSR, Americans,etc) saw it coming nor had any idea how fast it would spread across the country and the population.

As I pointed out earlier, one of my parent's friends married one of the 56ers. He was a border guard whose unit revolted, and when the revolt was doomed, he and his friends walked into Austria. Eventually, he made his way to the US.

I have heard funnny stories about the culture shock he and his friends had when arriving in the US. Among other things, they almost accidentally started a fight because they where staring at a black guy on the street. The guy thought they were going to jump him or something. In reality, they had never seen a black person face to face before and were just looking. They also could not figure out how to get off the Belt Parkway as they had never driven on a limited access road before.

Apparently they did think that the the US would help based on RFE. It is poingant that the last transmission of Radio Hungary as the Russians were storming Budapest was one of the leaders of the government shouting "Help Hungary Help!" then silence.

[Claymore]

My mother in law, along with her father and two sisters, rode their bicycles from Sopron into Austria.

Her father had owned a large vineyard in Sopron and was told that the state would be taking control and that he would likely be jailed for unspecified reasons. He woke the children later that night and told them to quietly dress and leave the house. They left everything behind.

After a short time in a refugee camp in Austria, they made their way to another refugee camp in Edison, NJ. The father died in 1968, having never been able to break into the wine business here in the US, and working a series of menial jobs.

[marek]

Was Radio Free Europe to blame, in that it gave false expectations to the anti-communists? Was Ike to blame as he did not send material help to the rebels? Were the British, French and Israelis to blame, as they chose that moment to invade the Suez Canal?


i blame the Soviets and the other Communist governments who aided them to suppress the people whom they claimed to be uplifting and protecting

[yossarian]

i blame the Soviets and the other Communist governments who aided them to suppress the people whom they claimed to be uplifting and protecting

Nice post, Captain Obvious. I can't wait for your next gem of insight....something probably along the lines of "Hitler was bad." You have all the intellectual curiousity of a dust mite.

Nobody, least of all Anthony, is giving the Soviets a free pass on this. Unlike you, however, people who enjoy studying history are curious about the other factors that played into and affected an event's outcome.

[marek]

Nice post, Captain Obvious. I can't wait for your next gem of insight....something probably along the lines of "Hitler was bad." You have all the intellectual curiousity of a dust mite.

Nobody, least of all Anthony, is giving the Soviets a free pass on this. Unlike you, however, people who enjoy studying history are curious about the other factors that played into and affected an event's outcome.

if the West did not stand up to the Soviets at the end of WWII, even to the extent of ignoring and keeping silent about their many crimes and their aggression in regards to their neighboors, if the West did nothing then when it was at least at a war footing with resources in the area, what do you expect them to do in '56?
so you expect us to blame what? Radio Free Europe? IKE?

and i'm shocked, shocked that your massive intellectual curiosity has not led you to the conclusion that Bush is to blame for the invasion of Hungary in '56

and yes, Hitler was bad you are right there



and by the way, i know its obvious and we all know without having to be told, and i'm sure Anthony did it without any bad intent, but the original post does not even mention the Soviet Union

[JBigjake]

i know its obvious and we all know without having to be told, and i'm sure Anthony did it without any bad intent, but the original post does not even mention the Soviet Union
"It goes without saying" sometimes leads to amnesia. There are certain elements in South Korea who fervently believe that it's the USA which is holding North Korea down & blocking unification of Korea!

[yossarian]

"It goes without saying" sometimes leads to amnesia. There are certain elements in South Korea who fervently believe that it's the USA which is holding North Korea down & blocking unification of Korea!

Are you saying that these certain elements have forgotten that there was a Korean War or that they think that NOW the U.S. is the biggest impediment to unification?

If it's the latter......that's a lot different than trying to imply that there is or ever could be "amnesia" regarding Soviet tanks rolling into Hungary.

[Anthony]

I guess I am now officially a Soviet Apologist. My mother probably feared this would happen when I once said something nice about Bill Clinton.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

"It goes without saying" sometimes leads to amnesia. There are certain elements in South Korea who fervently believe that it's the USA which is holding North Korea down & blocking unification of Korea!
You know how South Park says 25% of the population are retards?

[JBigjake]

Are you saying that these certain elements have forgotten that there was a Korean War or that they think that NOW the U.S. is the biggest impediment to unification?
If it's the latter......that's a lot different than trying to imply that there is or ever could be "amnesia" regarding Soviet tanks rolling into Hungary.
First answer: both IMO. Most South Koreans were born after the war & have no memory of it nor any experience with North Korean occupation.
Second point: Although 1956 is shortly after 1950-53, the continued Soviet presence in Hungary into 1991 results in shorter memories.

[yossarian]

First answer: both IMO. Most South Koreans were born after the war & have no memory of it nor any experience with North Korean occupation.
Second point: Although 1956 is shortly after 1950-53, the continued Soviet presence in Hungary into 1991 results in shorter memories.

As in more likely to forget? If that's what you're saying....isn't this statement belied by the recent demonstrations?

[JBigjake]

I guess that I should have said "more recent" instead of "shorter". The memories of occupation are fresh in Hungarian minds, while most South Koreans have no memories of the Korean War & the terrors of communism & totalitarianism (not that I'm justifying the RoK military dictatorships).

[entropy]

My grandfather was imprisoned after WWII when the Communists took power in Hungary. He spent most of his years in Lubyanka Prison in Moscow, before being transfered back to Hungary. He was freed during the 1956 uprising and managed to escape to the West, eventually rejoining his family here in the U.S. His immediate family had originally fled to West Germany during/after WWII and had all eventually resettled in the U.S. by that time.