Hierachy

[Dark Savante]

Every sociological group has a hierachy. In varying degrees there is deference and an acknowledgement of a 'superior' in any category. Not as harsh as it sounds, quite harmless in fact, things such as who is the funniest, the smartest, wittiest, strongest etc, etc.

Football is no different. Every club has a hierachy and an accepted rank amongst its players. For example, Keane was our top dog, not because he was captain, that had nothing to do with it - even if he wasn't captain his aura would have him accepted as #1. Much like many of us see Rio as the captain even though Gary wears the armband.

Anyway, I think it'd make an interesting thread to have your views on what you think our hierachy is in this current season. Remember, most influential or even best player at a club is not neccesarily the top of the food chain, bear that in mind. I've already done mine as to not be influenced by anyone elses and see how mine matches with those posted here.

You can do just the 1st xi, the established first 16, or the whole squad, if you're up to that. #1 is top dog and the lower the number the lower down the chain the player is.

Goooo. :)

[JamesA]

Good post DS. I think I may have to take a day to think this one over :eek:

However, could you please clarify one thing for me. Who viewpoint are we doing this from??

The coaching staff's "top dog" IMO is quite different from the players themselves...you get my drift?

[Dark Savante]

Good post DS. I think I may have to take a day to think this one over :eek:

However, could you please clarify one thing for me. Who viewpoint are we doing this from??

The coaching staff's "top dog" IMO is quite different from the players themselves...you get my drift?
You can do both if you want, that's a good idea actually. I was going from the player POV though.

I think it's actually quite difficult, a pub game, I'm at #10 and am a bit stuck.

[johno]

Tough one... Great idea.

Here's my best effort which is probably mixed between how it should be and how it probably is.

Untouchables
Ryan
Paul

Unquestionable
Rio
Wayne
Gary
Edwin
Cristiano***

Loyal Servants
Ole
Alan
Gabriel
Nemanja
Wesley
Darren F

Getting Established
John - ugh
Louis
Patrice

Movin on up
Ji
Michael
Giusseppi


For the heck of it I've put them into categories and I think they actually work (edit - I actually listed them first and then realized that they sort of grouped together in this way).

Paul and Giggs are the elder statesmen and their contribution and talent make them exceptions to virtually all rules.

The Unquestionables are those who's talent can't be denied but are yet to be deified. Neville straddles the first 2 groups. He's long standing and while he's been a great performer - he isn't talented enough to be an untouchable. Most players in this group will make it to the Untouchable list if they stay here long enough.

The Loyal Servants... they are just that - some of them can progress to higher heights, but we love them for their comittment to the club and we'd love them till the end, because they love us to the end.

Getting Established is the clique who have got to prove themselves based on performance - they will never belong to the Loyal Servants list - they could skip it and go straight to Unquestionable - but few will ever make it to Untouchable (requires love and respect of teammates and fans). In this group Saha has to prove health and loyalty and add goals to make it to the Unquestionable rank.

Movin on up - New members... Carrick, Park and Giusseppi all have enough time to move anywhere within our team's hierachy. If he stays Park is destined to fit into Loyal Servant. Carrick can go to Unquestionable and Giusseppi can go just about anywhere.

** Dear SAF, Please Note Silvestre is not listed.

[Achtung]

I think this tends to be a bit of a standard complain these days, that we lack a true, Keane-style leader, the kind we've always had (Cantona, Bruce, Robson, Schmeichel).

Where I work right now, we don't have a purely hierarchical, "pyramid-style" setup with regards to employees and managerial responsibilities, so I guess I'm sort of working off of that a bit. With various categories of managers and employee roles, things aren't so simple, and I think a football team works that way as well.

I'd rank the current hierarchy something like:

Top dogs, aka the ones most capable of running the game the way they want it:
Scholes, Rooney (yes, even at his age), Rio

Highly respected, but not so much leaders as slightly lone wolves:
Giggs, Ronaldo, Gary Neville, van der Sar, Solskjaer, Smith

Established, but somewhat aloof:
Wes Brown, Heinze, Vidic, O'Shea, Silvestre, Fletcher, Saha

Rising stars:
Park, Carrick, Evra

The kids, looking up to the crowd but ready to make an impact:
Rossi, Richardson, David Jones

I hope those categories make sense. The third one in particular, which is sort of like the second but without as much leadership.

It's a strange list now that I look at it, but I think that things like perception among teammates and general reputation plays a huge role. Of course its also weird that I would rank the "Gruesome Twosome" of Silvestre and O'Shea with guys I love like Vidic and Heinze, but I guess it makes sense given their experience. That said, I think the latter two would have a much higher chance of making it into the upper categories ultimately.

The "lone wolves" are sort of an interesting category, where you know they are loved by fans and respected by the players, but they never really grab the game by its throat and force themselves upon it. Other than Smith, none of those guys comes off as intense to me. They are leaders in their own way though.

I didn't include the kids that haven't played much, other than David Jones since even Fergie has had a lot to say about him, even if he hasn't been given the shot. Maybe its wishful thinking, but I really think that in time he'll get his chance.

[MtP07]

1. Giggsy
2. Rio
3. VdS
4. Wazza
5. Red Nev
6. Scholes
7. Ronaldo
8. Vidic
9. Gaby
10. Saha
11. Fletcher

That was difficult...and I'm still not 100% behind my list, but its my best guess. :o

[Stud83]

Lost-based hierarchy:

Jack:
Giggs, Rio

Sawyer:
Rooney, Smith

Sayid:
Vidic, Heinze

Charlie:
Ronaldo

Hurley:
O'Shea

Locke:
Ole, Scholes

Jin:
Evra, Park

Desmond:
Fletcher, Brown

Mr. Eco:
VDS

Walt:
Richardson

Michael:
Saha

Boone:
RVN

Shannon:
Beckham

[johno]

I've seen exactly 0 episodes of Lost. So now I'm lost.

[samabachan]

Lost-based hierarchy:

Jack:
Giggs, Rio

Sawyer:
Rooney, Smith

Sayid:
Vidic, Heinze

Charlie:
Ronaldo

Hurley:
O'Shea

Locke:
Ole, Scholes

Jin:
Evra, Park

Desmond:
Fletcher, Brown

Mr. Eco:
VDS

Walt:
Richardson

Michael:
Saha

Boone:
RVN

Shannon:
Beckham


So you're saying Richardson is an evil telekinetic freak?


I'll go with that.

[MtP07]

I've seen exactly 0 episodes of Lost. So now I'm lost.

All I know about Lost is there's a hot brunette on the show...which player is she?? :D

[JamesA]

Wow that was a tough one. I've compiled my list from a player perspective. This by no means is based on talent or SAF opinion. I base this purely on who I feel other players defer to, or ask advice from as a matter of pure respect.

Please note I feel this list transcends the field. Although I obviously cannot base this on fact (as I don't train or hang out with the boys) however, I have based my list on present/past player interviews/comments in addition to on-field performances, etc.....

1.) Paul
2.) Ryan
3.) Rio
4.) Gazza
5.) Ole
6.) VDS
7.) Wazza
8.) Cronaldo
9.) Heinze
10.) JOS
11.) Wes
12.) Fletch
13.) Smudge
14.) Monster
15.) Saha
16.) Patrice
17.) Michael
18.) Richardson
19.) Kuschfjo;wh


I'm confident, although not 100% certain of my list

[Achtung]

Lost-based hierarchy:

Walt:
Richardson

Michael:
Saha

http://home.comcast.net/~yparikh/racist.gif

;)

[Dark Savante]

Wow that was a tough one. I've compiled my list from a player perspective. This by no means is based on talent or SAF opinion. I base this purely on who I feel other players defer to, or ask advice from as a matter of pure respect.

Please note I feel this list transcends the field. Although I obviously cannot base this on fact (as I don't train or hang out with the boys) however, I have based my list on present/past player interviews/comments in addition to on-field performances, etc.....

1.) Paul
2.) Ryan
3.) Rio
4.) Gazza
5.) Ole
6.) VDS
7.) Wazza
8.) Cronaldo
9.) Heinze
10.) JOS
11.) Wes
12.) Fletch
13.) Smudge
14.) Monster
15.) Saha
16.) Patrice
17.) Michael
18.) Richardson
19.) Kuschfjo;wh


I'm confident, although not 100% certain of my list


290 views and only so few posts? :(

As this looks like a dying swan... I'll post mine and let it die, lol:

1. Paul Scholes
2. Ryan Giggs
3. Rio Ferdinand
4. Gary Neville
5. Wayne Rooney
6. Edwin Van der Sar
7. Cristiano Ronaldo
8. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
9. Gabriel Heinze
10. Nemanja Vidic
11. Alan Smith
12. Darren Fletcher

After that I really couldn't seperate the rest. I noticed that none of the newer buys except Vidic have an imposing personality and as such they'll make themselves known over time rather than with the force of their will. I've seen Vidic ignore 'the big guns' quite a few times now on the pitch, subsquently doing the right thing and making an incisive decision, basically suggesting he can't be told what to do by anyone except the manager, most definitely captaincy traits.

These guys:

O'Shea, Brown, Park, Saha, Evra, Richardson,
Kzuscsak, Silvestre, D.Jones, Carrick,

Either play their position as 'underlings' (said lightly not with a derogotary tone) as either newbies or players who know that they can be upgraded, dropped or replaced at any time. Richardson was very high up the chain at West Brom, maybe 3rd or 4th! He was in his element there, but here he defers to all of those on the numbered list immediately thus removing part of his own personality from his game.

Wes is just a quiet guy - his aura or lack of one is somewhat counter balanced by the fact he's known to be 'the hardest' guy at the club. If you know anything about where Wes was born and raised, you'll know his feet aren't to be stepped on.. he's left alone but he also leaves others alone.

Park, Evra and Carrick are just finding their feet and are doing their jobs. I feel they are all somewhat overawed by what's around them and until they genuinely feel like 'I can match him' they'll never impose themselves here and will remain low in the hierachy, like the affable bunch of character they seem to be.

Rossi and Jones are very interesting ones. As promoted reserves they know they have to play a role. The guise of Jones in the very few games he has had with the first team either during the CC or pre-season is that of docile subservient who takes his lead from established players... this is so far from what he is that it's quite strange to watch. He was captain and leader of all teams he played in coming up and was the conduit to every attacker and point and clicked everyone around him, playmade and scored as he saw fit. I think he'd shoot up the ranks if he ever got the chance to establish himself here, I'd go as far as to say he could very well be a future captain here. His force of will is very strong, given the chance.

Rossi is very similar in that he was the golden boy lauded by all at the club for 2yrs straight, he is much higher up the ranks then Jones and I'd probably slap him in about 13th as he is one that can take over games and thrive. The game when he outshone everyone, was it the Bury one? definitely took him way up those ranks, I also noticed he's allowed to do what he wants when he has the ball - lesser ranked players are always bullied along by the bigger guns and basically have all their decisions made for them, which is what Carrick has to fight hard to avoid here, or he'll always be less than the sum of his parts.

Scholes is #1 for me because everyone defers to him on every play. He's always, always top dog when any player is asked who 'the best is' and everyone wants to be on his 5aside in training. If you ever played footy at school and had the two top dogs picking teams from the assembled masses, you'll know what I mean (i was always a picker :p ) I've not seen a single player override a Scholes point or demand for the ball, even Rio and Vidic do as he tells them in this regard and it was also the same even when Keano was here, Keano never bollocked Scholes, never got on him like he did the others and that's a mark to the man as something unique during that era. Even our Wayne does what Scholes tells him, I don't think anyone else has such presence at the club as the Ginger Prince.

Giggsy reestablished himself last season as something to be exhaulted amongst this lot. He'd been a very quiet and represented a shadow of himself for some time before that, but he's took on the threat of Park and raised his game back to its true level and with it he, like Scholes, is a player who others move out the way for. When Giggs carries the ball the rest of the attack follow in behind or around him and wait I think he Giggs is revered for what he can do in the blink of an eye and for the fact he always, always does what's right for the team, be it a pass, shot or dribble. He's Old Faithful!

Last one (before I end up writing an essay, lol) I'd note is Ronaldo. He has shot up the ranks this season and he'll go even higher if he maintains what he is doing. He definitely earned his rank and is now a player the team trusts and doesn't scold. You'll notice that the higher ranked a player is the less bollockings and the fewer people who can bollock him becomes. Right now there aren't many in the team who can say anything to him when he fecks a play up - I've seen Giggsy tut tut him a few times, but nothing major and definitely not in the same fashion as the lad had gotten in the past. It clearly marks Ronaldo as someone who, if he stays here, is going to be a top dog with Rooney once the old boys make way. Not just because of his skills but because of what he represents for the rest of the team.

[Dark Savante]

I've never seen Lost, so like Johno, I'm also lost. :o

[holytoledo]

I've never seen Lost, so like Johno, I'm also lost. :o

Funny, I just finished watching Season 2 not 5 minutes ago. I really don't know what to think about that show. Innovative and frustrating at the same time.

[Sapphire]

1. Scholes and
1. Giggs
3. Gary
4. Rio
5. VdS
6. Heinze
7. Rooney
8. Solskjaer
9. Vidic
10. Ronaldo
11. Brown
12. Smith
13. Park
14. Fletch

I can't differentiate between Scholes and Giggs: they are essence of United both of them. I put Rooney a little lower than many of you guys because of his youth and immaturity -- he'll definitely be topping this kind of list in a season or two, but for now I still get the feeling that his acting out costs him some respect and status in the team. Smith is about to fall off the bottom of the list; his capital in this ranking is about to expire; we need something new, Smudger!! Finally, Fletcher is just above the miscellaneous unmentionables (Richardson, Silvestre, Oshea), most likely because everyone is in awe of Fergie's estimation of his ability. It's the "wtf?" factor (obviously, I'm still not convinced on Fletcher :D ).

[Stud83]

I've never seen Lost, so like Johno, I'm also lost. :o

Wait - I thought I saw a reference somewhere you made to Mr. Eko. :confused:
http://quelquechose.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/eko.jpg

[JamesA]

DS

Yeah, it is too bad so few have responded. However, it is a pretty tough question, especially for newer fans that began following the team post Paul, Ryan, Gaz, etc......

I had to laugh a little how we pretty much had the same reponse for the first 5. I especially agree with your comments on Paul being our top-dog.

I think that actually leads into another interesting question. In fact I think I may even start a new thread on this one....

[holytoledo]

1-Giggs*
2-Scholes*
3-Gary
4-van der Sar
5-Rio
6-Heinze

*Giggs and Sholes strike me as the really the two main guys who when they start talking, everyone shuts up. Gaz to a lesser extent, as he is el capitan.

As far as the kids go, I'm not really sure how they would rank with each other, Although I guess Rooney would be at the top.

1-Rooney
2-Ronaldo
3-Fletch
4-Smith
5-Wesley
??? Maybe ???

[foyez5]

Really liked your post DS should've done the whole essay!