BvM: How Much Is He To Blame??

[footyfan1]

Guys, despite my staunch defense of BvM, which I will continue even at this thread, I do have to say that he is not "blameless".

I don't blame him for the things you guys bring up, but yes, he is PART of the problem. That cannot be denied.

I think the team itself and it's lack of heart and courage is the major problem, but here's why I don't blame BvM for that.

We had the guy who we all thought the one thing he'd be good at was instilling heart and courage into the team.

That was Matthias Sammer. He couldn't do it. The team had problems with self-confidence that I believe Sammer himself created when he just couldn't figure out what to do with all the talent Niebaum bought him.

Now, I'm a former Army Staff Sergeant. We learn about leadership personality in our Non-Commissioned Officers' training. One thing I learned and I believe to this day is that you can show someone the way to being courageous, but you cannot MAKE THEM THAT WAY.

It's something your teaching has to help. You can teach someone what they should do in a situation, but when that situation hits, they will remember your teaching, but their instincts are what they will eventually follow.

As far as true courage goes, you have to find it within yourself.

Case in point. Before we left for Desert Storm, one of the guys we thought was the one of the most "Gung-Ho", badass mother f#ckers in the battalion got scared and took off. Absent without leave. As much as he'd been drilled and trained to be strong and courageous, when it came time for battle, his natural instinct took over. And his natural instinct told him to run.

No matter how much training, testing and pushing you do, I feel you can't make a true warrior out of a coward. Natural instincts always take over.

I don't believe BvM is just sitting around waiting for the team to find heart and courage. However, with a team this young, you must be patient and there are some things they have to learn for themselves. It's a process.

If you're too hard on them, they could quit on you and simply tune you out. I feel that's what happened to Sammer. However, maybe BvM is being too patient. I'll tell you from the translations we do, I don't think that's the case either. But that's just my opinion. He could really be too patient.

Another thing I think BvM could improve is his substitutions. He really doesn't like to substitute and one of guys on the e-mail list thinks BvM should have subbed Degen out after 30 minutes on Friday to send him a message.

I think that's a bit harsh, but yeah, I agree with him that Degen should have seen the bench on Friday night.

I thought Pienaar should have after 70 minutes, but I can see why BvM stuck with him. The same guy on the e-mail list thinks Pienaar is "getting there" and his words were if Enke doesn't get to that Pienaar shot Enke barely tipped against the post, we're not having this discussion.

As I'm going to post this message to the e-mail list too, I'll tell him that yes, I think we are still having this discussion. Why? Because when things don't go his way, Steven Pienaar turns into a whiner. He gets frustrated and whines. You can see the frustration having an effect on him.

Can one goal will change that? I don't know. But I also think this is something BvM has to handle. He has to teach some of the players professionalism. Maybe learning to do the right thing and working hard even when you're frustrated will bring on playing with fire.

I think Pienaar and some of the others could learn some professionalism from Ebi Smolarek. Even when Ebi couldn't buy a goal and I was criticizing him to holy hell, the one thing I could NOT say about him was that he wasn't trying. Smolarek worked his ass off every match, but just couldn't get the job done. He kept working hard and it paid off last Friday.

BvM has to get the rest of the team to think that way. I also think BvM isn't telling the team to get out there and slaughter their opponents.

Or maybe he is and they just aren't listening. After all, something prompted him to say last week, "The team is still just too nice!"


Other than that, I'm completely happy with BvM. I'm completely happy with the path BvM has put this club on. We're "growing" our own talent and this man actually gets players to improve. Not only that, tactically, he normally gives them the best chance to win.

Even though I do have to say I think he's being a bit stubborn with this 4-4-2.

I wouldn't be this impatient with the team with new players at key positions, but management set the goal at the top five. That's what I'm looking at.

"Can this team finish in top five?"

The way they are looking right now, I think that answer is no.

But after cooling off about Friday thanks to discussions on the e-mail list with the guy I mentioned previously and "jonam", I feel we need to be patient with the team and BvM.

I think we need to realize that maybe, just maybe, management over-rated how quickly these guys would "gel" as a group when they set that "top five" goal, and we need to give them more time to gel as a group.

And give BvM time to work with them during this process.......

What say you??? :)

EDIT: I meant to say that I was a bit harsh earlier when I said "Hitzfeld isn't coming back."

If BvM doesn't work out, maybe Zorc would try to get Hitzfeld back. I think it's unlikely, but I have to say that even though I think Hitzfeld was a "Traitor Bastard" for ditching us for BayScum, I would welcome him back.

But I don't think Hitzfeld can solve the leadership problem. That one will be solved when someone finds that courage within themselves and steps up.

I'm still hoping it will be Kehl. He sees how much the team misses him AND he's just become a father. Maybe he'll feel more responsible at the stadium as well as at home.

[Coon]

Guys, despite my staunch defense of BvM, which I will continue even at this thread, I do have to say that he is not "blameless".

I don't blame him for the things you guys bring up, but yes, he is PART of the problem. That cannot be denied.

I think the team itself and it's lack of heart and courage is the major problem, but here's why I don't blame BvM for that.

We had the guy who we all thought the one thing he'd be good at was instilling heart and courage into the team.

That was Matthias Sammer. He couldn't do it. The team had problems with self-confidence that I believe Sammer himself created when he just couldn't figure out what to do with all the talent Niebaum bought him.

Now, I'm a former Army Staff Sergeant. We learn about leadership personality in our Non-Commissioned Officers' training. One thing I learned and I believe to this day is that you can show someone the way to being courageous, but you cannot MAKE THEM THAT WAY.

It's something your teaching has to help. You can teach someone what they should do in a situation, but when that situation hits, they will remember your teaching, but their instincts are what they will eventually follow.

As far as true courage goes, you have to find it within yourself.

Case in point. Before we left for Desert Storm, one of the guys we thought was the one of the most "Gung-Ho", badass mother f#ckers in the battalion got scared and took off. Absent without leave. As much as he'd been drilled and trained to be strong and courageous, when it came time for battle, his natural instinct took over. And his natural instinct told him to run.

No matter how much training, testing and pushing you do, I feel you can't make a true warrior out of a coward. Natural instincts always take over.

I don't believe BvM is just sitting around waiting for the team to find heart and courage. However, with a team this young, you must be patient and there are some things they have to learn for themselves. It's a process.

If you're too hard on them, they could quit on you and simply tune you out. I feel that's what happened to Sammer. However, maybe BvM is being too patient. I'll tell you from the translations we do, I don't think that's the case either. But that's just my opinion. He could really be too patient.

Another thing I think BvM could improve is his substitutions. He really doesn't like to substitute and one of guys on the e-mail list thinks BvM should have subbed Degen out after 30 minutes on Friday to send him a message.

I think that's a bit harsh, but yeah, I agree with him that Degen should have seen the bench on Friday night.

I thought Pienaar should have after 70 minutes, but I can see why BvM stuck with him. The same guy on the e-mail list thinks Pienaar is "getting there" and his words were if Enke doesn't get to that Pienaar shot Enke barely tipped against the post, we're not having this discussion.

As I'm going to post this message to the e-mail list too, I'll tell him that yes, I think we are still having this discussion. Why? Because when things don't go his way, Steven Pienaar turns into a whiner. He gets frustrated and whines. You can see the frustration having an effect on him.

Can one goal will change that? I don't know. But I also think this is something BvM has to handle. He has to teach some of the players professionalism. Maybe learning to do the right thing and working hard even when you're frustrated will bring on playing with fire.

I think Pienaar and some of the others could learn some professionalism from Ebi Smolarek. Even when Ebi couldn't buy a goal and I was criticizing him to holy hell, the one thing I could NOT say about him was that he wasn't trying. Smolarek worked his ass off every match, but just couldn't get the job done. He kept working hard and it paid off last Friday.

BvM has to get the rest of the team to think that way. I also think BvM isn't telling the team to get out there and slaughter their opponents.

Or maybe he is and they just aren't listening. After all, something prompted him to say last week, "The team is still just too nice!"


Other than that, I'm completely happy with BvM. I'm completely happy with the path BvM has put this club on. We're "growing" our own talent and this man actually gets players to improve. Not only that, tactically, he normally gives them the best chance to win.

Even though I do have to say I think he's being a bit stubborn with this 4-4-2.

I wouldn't be this impatient with the team with new players at key positions, but management set the goal at the top five. That's what I'm looking at.

"Can this team finish in top five?"

The way they are looking right now, I think that answer is no.

But after cooling off about Friday thanks to discussions on the e-mail list with the guy I mentioned previously and "jonam", I feel we need to be patient with the team and BvM.

I think we need to realize that maybe, just maybe, management over-rated how quickly these guys would "gel" as a group when they set that "top five" goal, and we need to give them more time to gel as a group.

And give BvM time to work with them during this process.......

What say you??? :)

EDIT: I meant to say that I was a bit harsh earlier when I said "Hitzfeld isn't coming back."

If BvM doesn't work out, maybe Zorc would try to get Hitzfeld back. I think it's unlikely, but I have to say that even though I think Hitzfeld was a "Traitor Bastard" for ditching us for BayScum, I would welcome him back.

But I don't think Hitzfeld can solve the leadership problem. That one will be solved when someone finds that courage within themselves and steps up.

I'm still hoping it will be Kehl. He sees how much the team misses him AND he's just become a father. Maybe he'll feel more responsible at the stadium as well as at home.


Damn you good Keith... I was so angry on friday but you always seem to calm me down and force me to look at the bright side of things. I completely agree with the above. I got a question though. What would you play with this group of guys other than a 4-4-2... i absolutely hated his 4-3-3 last season. I really dont want to see that again!!

And I disagree with you calling Hitzfeld a traitor. There is a fine line between loyalty and just plain being smart. And I think he was VERY SMART to get out of Dortmund when he did. He only won the champions league with Bayern and the league many times. You cant fault him for accepting bayerns offer.

[HeyaBVB]

Damn you good Keith... I was so angry on friday but you always seem to calm me down and force me to look at the bright side of things. I completely agree with the above. I got a question though. What would you play with this group of guys other than a 4-4-2... i absolutely hated his 4-3-3 last season. I really dont want to see that again!!

And I disagree with you calling Hitzfeld a traitor. There is a fine line between loyalty and just plain being smart. And I think he was VERY SMART to get out of Dortmund when he did. He only won the champions league with Bayern and the league many times. You cant fault him for accepting bayerns offer.

1. Hitzfeld not being a traitor
------------------------------
Going to the Scum or Schlake is betraying BVB .... If you ever come to germany and don't look BVB from far away you realize that.. Being a BVB Fan means that you ... also see Schlake and BayScum as the enemy ... whatever bad happens to them you like it ... whatever bad happens to us ... they like it. For every BVB fan who is attached to the BVB like only germans or people who live in germany (as they only fully understand the rivalry) can be the act of Hitzfeld going to the Scum was an act of treason ... Andy Möller going to Schlacke ... was an Act of treason ... (You should get authentic BVB Fan songs .. at best from the Unity than you may understand :) )
I am a 49ers Fan ... but I can never be as connected to the club as an american or anyone living in the area, I may see the general picture ... but not the internal picture ... and I'd say same goes for far distance fans of any team ... you never can no anything (that doesn't makes you less a fan, but it makes you less sensible to stuff around the club)

2. BvM being guilty of our performance
-------------------------------------
I don't see anything to panic atm. BvM is clearly not the problem. The problem is that we have a complete new offense .... Pienaar only speaks english, Tinga only Portugues .... the guys have to find each other ... I blame Rauball, Watzke and Susi and most of the fans for pressuring the the team. Wanting an UEFA Cup Spot is imho way to early ... next year maybe ... when the team grew together. When Amedick got some BL experience and we're not so dependend on Brenner ... When Kehl maybe realized he has to get louder or Tinga knows enough german to lead the team ... A german phrase says "Abwarten und Tee trinken" (Wait and see) ... we just should do that ... and not cry "Wolf" after 6 gamedays ... geez the other suck as badly as we do .. and we are missing key player : KEHL , METZE .... now also FREI , VALDEZ ......
Also please look at the fact that Ebi and Valdez both work their asses off .... Frei just needs to figure out that Bundesliga is different then french league ... Pienaar needs to figure the same out (but french league is now Dutch League) I say if they all get some time (till the winterbreak) and if we keep in touch with the goal we have till then ... we will hopefully see a better team after the break (with all our nationals got some holidays too)

[footyfan1]

Damn you good Keith... I was so angry on friday but you always seem to calm me down and force me to look at the bright side of things. I completely agree with the above. I got a question though. What would you play with this group of guys other than a 4-4-2... i absolutely hated his 4-3-3 last season. I really dont want to see that again!!


That 4-3-3 worked well last season. The only problems were the same ones we have now. Lack of overall team courage and despite Smolarek's great performance against Hannover, lack of finishing.

And the way he played against Gladbach and Hannover, we would be smart to keep Smolarek on the pitch. When he's "hot", there's not many better. While he's "hot", we have to ride him.



And I disagree with you calling Hitzfeld a traitor. There is a fine line between loyalty and just plain being smart. And I think he was VERY SMART to get out of Dortmund when he did. He only won the champions league with Bayern and the league many times. You cant fault him for accepting bayerns offer.


I can "understand", but that doesn't mean I have to accept it.

When he quit as coach of BVB, he said he had an offer from Real Madrid, but decided not to go. BVB CREATED that position of Director of Sport (The one Zorc holds today) just for Hitzfeld. And he chooses a dog (Scala) for a successor and then bolts to BayScum when the shit doesn't work?

Excuse me. Where I sit, that makes him a "Traitor Bastard."

I totally agree with "HeyaBVB's" comments on the situation. That's not some shit you do when you're a BVB icon. I'd still spit on Thomas Helmer if I saw him on the sidewalk today.

Well, maybe not, but I'd want to!! ;)

I tried not to fault Andy Moeller when he made his traitorus move. Why? Because BVB didn't deal with him like they should deal with a MAN and a club icon. They just strung him along like he was nobody and let his contract run out without the courtesy of a handshake. I tried to understand that he was well justified in seeking revenge against BVB. However, that shit just didn't fly with me. I forgive him now, but I still think he betrayed the fans. I've forgiven him just as I have Amoroso and just as I would Hitzfeld. But Hitzfeld still shouldn't have done the shit to begin with.

Yeah, I understand he did it for himself, but in doing so, he tarnished the legacy he left at BVB. Same goes for Amoroso.

[footyfan1]

1. Hitzfeld not being a traitor
------------------------------
Going to the Scum or Schlake is betraying BVB .... If you ever come to germany and don't look BVB from far away you realize that.. Being a BVB Fan means that you ... also see Schlake and BayScum as the enemy ... whatever bad happens to them you like it ... whatever bad happens to us ... they like it. For every BVB fan who is attached to the BVB like only germans or people who live in germany (as they only fully understand the rivalry) can be the act of Hitzfeld going to the Scum was an act of treason ... Andy Möller going to Schlacke ... was an Act of treason ... (You should get authentic BVB Fan songs .. at best from the Unity than you may understand :) )
I am a 49ers Fan ... but I can never be as connected to the club as an american or anyone living in the area, I may see the general picture ... but not the internal picture ... and I'd say same goes for far distance fans of any team ... you never can no anything (that doesn't makes you less a fan, but it makes you less sensible to stuff around the club)

I agree in principle, but not with some of your comments.

1) People not in Germany not being able to understand the rivalry. I think that's wrong. You act like people can't read a history book or get a feel from talking to their friends. I know people living right here in Germany who love BVB, but don't get the rivalry. They are mainly fans here in Bayern who say they like both BVB and Schalke because they hate BayScum. They live in Germany and they don't understand the rivalry.

I met guys who are BVB fans in America who've never been lucky enough to have been here for a match who know the rivalry better than I do.

Saying that you have to be here in Germany to "understand the rivalry" is like me telling you you can't love the club the way you do because you don't go to games.


2) Getting authentic BVB songs: What does that prove? The only club song I come close to knowing the words to is "Heja BVB". Nobody thinks I'm any less of a fan because I don't know the words to those songs. I don't think anyone has to know them to understand the rivalry or love the club.


3) Distance Fans: Dude, you and I are technically both "distance fans". I've never lived close to the Dortmund area and you don't either, yet there are guys in the Dortmund area who'll tell you that I'm a bigger fan of the club and know what's going on at the club more than they do.

Perfect case in point is Bense. I think we're both bigger BVB fans than him and I know I at least know about as much if not more about what's going on at the club than he does.

"jonam" is another "distance fan" who I think knows more about what goes on at the club than any of us.

What's funny about Bense is that he lives damned near in the shadow of the stadium and went to school with Kringe. You'd think he'd know, but he doesn't.

Also, through KC, I organized the team to allow BVB to keep the English page at the official website. I did this while living in Texas. I don't think you can be much further away and be any closer to the club than working for them. And I managed to do that.



2. BvM being guilty of our performance
-------------------------------------
I don't see anything to panic atm. BvM is clearly not the problem. The problem is that we have a complete new offense .... Pienaar only speaks english, Tinga only Portugues .... the guys have to find each other ... I blame Rauball, Watzke and Susi and most of the fans for pressuring the the team. Wanting an UEFA Cup Spot is imho way to early ... next year maybe ... when the team grew together. When Amedick got some BL experience and we're not so dependend on Brenner ... When Kehl maybe realized he has to get louder or Tinga knows enough german to lead the team ... A german phrase says "Abwarten und Tee trinken" (Wait and see) ... we just should do that ... and not cry "Wolf" after 6 gamedays ... geez the other suck as badly as we do .. and we are missing key player : KEHL , METZE .... now also FREI , VALDEZ ......
Also please look at the fact that Ebi and Valdez both work their asses off .... Frei just needs to figure out that Bundesliga is different then french league ... Pienaar needs to figure the same out (but french league is now Dutch League) I say if they all get some time (till the winterbreak) and if we keep in touch with the goal we have till then ... we will hopefully see a better team after the break (with all our nationals got some holidays too)



Again, I agree in principle, but I have one problem with it. The problems you managed to not to mention. And the reason we are so upset about these problems is because they are not a product of having new players who need to get used to each other.


These are problems we've had at BVB for YEARS and the problem with it is the players managment chooses to make up the team.


They choose what they call "character guys". I call them "gutless cowards" or "pu$$ies."


I believe our main problems are the team's lack of courage and fight when faced by teams who will fight them to the end and the lack of leadership out on the pitch.


Everything you mentioned is true, but truly not the problem in my opinion. Except one or two players, the team is not playing "badly."


I truly feel, as do others, INCLUDING BvM, that the team's problem is that they don't have the spirit to get down and dirty with fighting opponents for 90 minutes.


BvM said himself last week, "The team is still too nice!"


In my opinion, this BVB team lacks TOUGHNESS!!


Now of course, you see me ranting and raving and calling them "gutless cowards" or "pu$$ies."


I believe "The team is still too nice" is BvM's way of saying the same thing. I truly believe that.


Every week out on the pitch, I think we have Weidenfeller, Dede, Tinga, Smolarek (When he plays), Valdez and six PU$$IES!


This team gets frustrated when things don't come easily for them. That's a sign of lack of maturity. Which I blame on management because this team is simply too young! But it's also a problem BvM has to solve.


When frustration sets in with this BVB team, it is an ugly thing. When they get frustrated, they go into a shell. It's horrible. They just sit there and let the inferior, but TOUGHER teams hit on them until they finally break.


We even had that problem in the Sammer years too. I think Sammer yelled, screamed and criticized the players in the press to try to get them to respond and they simply tuned him out. Especially after his bonehead move against Real Madrid that cost us Champions' League advancement.


People always ask me, "Who was the a$$hole on the pitch the year we won the title?"


First of all, you have to remember that were it not for 1. FC Nuernberg, we don't win that title.


Second, and you will HATE this Wandi, but the player who kept the others in the game when things were looking badly that season was AMOROSO! Yes, we even had the same problems that season too. We just had the player on the pitch to counter the frustration.

If you think that's not true, look at the match from that pentultimate Saturday in Hamburg for starters.


The team is still lacking a tough "leader-type" as a field player. While management did a GREAT job in getting a veteran in Tinga, they should have found a veteran "leader-type" who speaks German!



One was available on a free transfer this summer. Sergej Barbarez. I would have snapped him up. Even if it meant not getting Valdez or Frei or looking to sell Smolarek.

(Yes, I still feel that way even after Smolarek's good performances in Gladbach and against Hannover.)


I can't say Barbarez was the exact right guy, but getting something in the leadership department is better than getting nothing. And we've been lamenting this lack of leadership on the pitch problem since the day they sold Frings.


How could management not see that the same old lack of leadership problem was still going to be there? Unless they never actually recognized it as a problem to begin with.


Maybe they need to see if Stefan Effenberg will come out of retirement! LOL!! :D


Just kidding there, but that's the type of personality we're missing out on the pitch. The only guy we have who I feel is close to that type is Roman Weidenfeller.


Wandi, those are the reasons you see people "panicking" already. It's not the team's play. I think they play pretty damned well until they get frustrated. And that's why we need a leader-type on the pitch.

To counter the team's going into that "shell" once they become frustrated.

Watch how other teams play us. They stay compact until they can see our guys getting frustrated and that's when they attack.

Here's another reason some are "panicking."

If Gomez (Stuttgart), Edu (Mainz), Guerrero (HSV) and Brdaric (Hannover) don't miss sitters late in the matches we played against them, this BVB team is at the bottom of the table.

And all of those guys really should have scored.........

For me it all comes down to three things:

1) Lack of leadership on the pitch.
2) Lack of team toughness on the pitch.
3) Lack of maturity on the pitch leading to easy frustration.

The first two, BvM can't fix. Either someone has to step up and take the lead, or BVB management has to find another alternative during the winterpause. Which is not easy. "Leader-Types" don't grow on trees.

The third one, BvM does need to try to get control of.......

[HeyaBVB]

I agree in principle, but not with some of your comments.

1) People not in Germany not being able to understand the rivalry. I think that's wrong. You act like people can't read a history book or get a feel from talking to their friends. I know people living right here in Germany who love BVB, but don't get the rivalry. They are mainly fans here in Bayern who say they like both BVB and Schalke because they hate BayScum. They live in Germany and they don't understand the rivalry.

I met guys who are BVB fans in America who've never been lucky enough to have been here for a match who know the rivalry better than I do.

Saying that you have to be here in Germany to "understand the rivalry" is like me telling you you can't love the club the way you do because you don't go to games.


2) Getting authentic BVB songs: What does that prove? The only club song I come close to knowing the words to is "Heja BVB". Nobody thinks I'm any less of a fan because I don't know the words to those songs. I don't think anyone has to know them to understand the rivalry or love the club.

3) Distance Fans: Dude, you and I are technically both "distance fans". I've never lived close to the Dortmund area and you don't either, yet there are guys in the Dortmund area who'll tell you that I'm a bigger fan of the club and know what's going on at the club more than they do.

Perfect case in point is Bense. I think we're both bigger BVB fans than him and I know I at least know about as much if not more about what's going on at the club than he does.

"jonam" is another "distance fan" who I think knows more about what goes on at the club than any of us.

What's funny about Bense is that he lives damned near in the shadow of the stadium and went to school with Kringe. You'd think he'd know, but he doesn't.

Also, through KC, I organized the team to allow BVB to keep the English page at the official website. I did this while living in Texas. I don't think you can be much further away and be any closer to the club than working for them. And I managed to do that.

Keith ... either you don't know what I mean ... or don't wanna know.
I said not being a close fan (in germany and close proximity to germany [Holland, Denmark etc our close neighbours) doesn't mean you are less a fan.

OutOfTopic:
A good example of what I meant ... I am a history buff ... espec. WWII .. yeah I can read much about it .. but the best inside is from ppl who actually where there.

BackToTopic:
The same goes for being a fan I say. You can be a fan and you can love a team. But you never fully understand their rivalries etc. If you not have been there. Imho its a point of being to the temple ... when you meet other BVB fans RL and you got "infected" by the virus BVB by seeing and being ... than you understand the whole thing.


Again, I agree in principle, but I have one problem with it. The problems you managed to not to mention. And the reason we are so upset about these problems is because they are not a product of having new players who need to get used to each other.


These are problems we've had at BVB for YEARS and the problem with it is the players managment chooses to make up the team.


They choose what they call "character guys". I call them "gutless cowards" or "pu$$ies."


I believe our main problems are the team's lack of courage and fight when faced by teams who will fight them to the end and the lack of leadership out on the pitch.


Everything you mentioned is true, but truly not the problem in my opinion. Except one or two players, the team is not playing "badly."


I truly feel, as do others, INCLUDING BvM, that the team's problem is that they don't have the spirit to get down and dirty with fighting opponents for 90 minutes.


BvM said himself last week, "The team is still too nice!"


In my opinion, this BVB team lacks TOUGHNESS!!


Now of course, you see me ranting and raving and calling them "gutless cowards" or "pu$$ies."


I believe "The team is still too nice" is BvM's way of saying the same thing. I truly believe that.


Every week out on the pitch, I think we have Weidenfeller, Dede, Tinga, Smolarek (When he plays), Valdez and six PU$$IES!


This team gets frustrated when things don't come easily for them. That's a sign of lack of maturity. Which I blame on management because this team is simply too young! But it's also a problem BvM has to solve.


When frustration sets in with this BVB team, it is an ugly thing. When they get frustrated, they go into a shell. It's horrible. They just sit there and let the inferior, but TOUGHER teams hit on them until they finally break.


We even had that problem in the Sammer years too. I think Sammer yelled, screamed and criticized the players in the press to try to get them to respond and they simply tuned him out. Especially after his bonehead move against Real Madrid that cost us Champions' League advancement.


People always ask me, "Who was the a$$hole on the pitch the year we won the title?"


First of all, you have to remember that were it not for 1. FC Nuernberg, we don't win that title.


Second, and you will HATE this Wandi, but the player who kept the others in the game when things were looking badly that season was AMOROSO! Yes, we even had the same problems that season too. We just had the player on the pitch to counter the frustration.

If you think that's not true, look at the match from that pentultimate Saturday in Hamburg for starters.


The team is still lacking a tough "leader-type" as a field player. While management did a GREAT job in getting a veteran in Tinga, they should have found a veteran "leader-type" who speaks German!



One was available on a free transfer this summer. Sergej Barbarez. I would have snapped him up. Even if it meant not getting Valdez or Frei or looking to sell Smolarek.

(Yes, I still feel that way even after Smolarek's good performances in Gladbach and against Hannover.)


I can't say Barbarez was the exact right guy, but getting something in the leadership department is better than getting nothing. And we've been lamenting this lack of leadership on the pitch problem since the day they sold Frings.


How could management not see that the same old lack of leadership problem was still going to be there? Unless they never actually recognized it as a problem to begin with.


Maybe they need to see if Stefan Effenberg will come out of retirement! LOL!! :D


Just kidding there, but that's the type of personality we're missing out on the pitch. The only guy we have who I feel is close to that type is Roman Weidenfeller.


Wandi, those are the reasons you see people "panicking" already. It's not the team's play. I think they play pretty damned well until they get frustrated. And that's why we need a leader-type on the pitch.

To counter the team's going into that "shell" once they become frustrated.

Watch how other teams play us. They stay compact until they can see our guys getting frustrated and that's when they attack.

Here's another reason some are "panicking."

If Gomez (Stuttgart), Edu (Mainz), Guerrero (HSV) and Brdaric (Hannover) don't miss sitters late in the matches we played against them, this BVB team is at the bottom of the table.

And all of those guys really should have scored.........


Where would we be if Frei, Valdez, Smolarek would have made all the goals? Where would we be if Salihamidzic would not have injured Kehl?

Facts are Facts, we are where we are and no would be's can change it :)

We could be better or worse.


For me it all comes down to three things:

1) Lack of leadership on the pitch.
2) Lack of team toughness on the pitch.
3) Lack of maturity on the pitch leading to easy frustration.

The first two, BvM can't fix. Either someone has to step up and take the lead, or BVB management has to find another alternative during the winterpause. Which is not easy. "Leader-Types" don't grow on trees.

The third one, BvM does need to try to get control of.......

1) ATM we definately do ... but I have trust in Kehl
2) See point 1 .. I think we miss Kehl
3) With Kehl, Tinga, Wörns, Dede and maybe Valdez I think sooner or later
we have some personalities to control the team

[footyfan1]

Keith ... either you don't know what I mean ... or don't wanna know. I said not being a close fan (in germany and close proximity to germany [Holland, Denmark etc our close neighbours) doesn't mean you are less a fan.


And I agree. You either didn't read or understand all I wrote. I also said it doesn't mean you can't understand the rivalry either. I used that just as part of my comments to prove my entire point.

Read again, my initial words agreed with yours. I basically said the same thing again. As I said, to lead up to proving my entire point.

I also think you need to stop being so damned sensitive anytime you feel I'm disagreeing with you. I read everything you wrote and just responded. I didn't "ignore" one f#cking word!



OutOfTopic:
A good example of what I meant ... I am a history buff ... espec. WWII .. yeah I can read much about it .. but the best inside is from ppl who actually where there.

I think there's a difference between world/national history and sports rivalries.

Sure, you'll have a better understanding of a rivalry once you've been to one of their matches, but it's not like BVB-Scheisse is the world's only intense local rivalry either.

It's only special to us because it's our club involved.

It might be "smaller", but a 1. FC Nürnberg v. Greuther Fürth meeting is just as freakin' intense. Shit, I'd say even more so because they don't meet twice a season like BVB and Scheisse do.

When 1. FC Nürnberg and Greuther Fürth meet, it's definitely an event to rival BVB v. Scheisse. It's just not as "big" of an "event" media-wise, but to the fans, it's just as big.

Don't let me get into the Münchner Derby, Werder v. HSV or Kaiserslautern v. Mainz......


BackToTopic:
The same goes for being a fan I say. You can be a fan and you can love a team. But you never fully understand their rivalries etc. If you not have been there. Imho its a point of being to the temple ... when you meet other BVB fans RL and you got "infected" by the virus BVB by seeing and being ... than you understand the whole thing.


I disagree. I was well infected with the BVB virus before I ever set foot in Westfalenstadion or Dortmund and I well understood it. It was just a matter of finally seeing it all in person.

Where I partially agree with you is that the part I got to "understand" was Dortmund itself. I understood the love affair with the club, but I didn't understand what made the people in that region "tick".

That's the one thing I learned that made me love it even more. But as far as finally "seeing it", I well understood what was going to happen when I got there and saw what I saw.



Where would we be if Frei, Valdez, Smolarek would have made all the goals? Where would we be if Salihamidzic would not have injured Kehl?

Facts are Facts, we are where we are and no would be's can change it :)

We could be better or worse.


Right. However, what's more likely to happen, those guys make multiple sitters iin matches or different guys converting just one per match??

We were closer to losing most of those matches then we were to winning them. I think the only one we lost/drew that we were closer to winning than than losing was the Bayern match. Mainz definitely came closer to beating us than we came to winning that match. Hell, even when we won in Stuttgart, we needed an own goal and for Weidenfeller to save our asses!

And like Stuttgart, HSV were let down by shit finishing.

We didn't really create shit else in Gladbach besides Frei's two blown chances. Oh. That's wrong. There was the chance Smolarek created all by himself, but anyone who knows Kasey Keller knew he had that all the way.

Damn. We were even one Brdaric missed sitter away from losing the Hannover match.

Dude, you say, "We could be better or we could be worse."

That is very true. However, I've seen all of these matches in their entirety. Have you?

We haven't won one match "comfortably" yet this season. We haven't come close. We haven't even had a comfortable draw yet.

We've been more lucky than good and one thing is for certain.

When you are like that, if you don't begin to take care of business, sooner or later your luck will run out and the shit will catch up with you.......



For me it all comes down to three things:

1) Lack of leadership on the pitch.

1) ATM we definately do ... but I have trust in Kehl

I hope he'll step up now that he's seen how much the team needs him and that he's now a new father. Other than that, we've had this problem the whole time Kehl has been here, so I can't say that I trust in him to solve the problem.

Not when he's been a part of the problem for the last three years.


2) Lack of team toughness on the pitch.

2) See point 1 .. I think we miss Kehl

See my response to point 1. If he changes with seeing the team go through this shit and becoming a new father, I can go with that, otherwise, how can you count on someone to be the "answer" when they've been a part of the problem for so long??

3) Lack of maturity on the pitch leading to easy frustration.

The first two, BvM can't fix. Either someone has to step up and take the lead, or BVB management has to find another alternative during the winterpause. Which is not easy. "Leader-Types" don't grow on trees.

The third one, BvM does need to try to get control of.......



3) With Kehl, Tinga, Wörns, Dede and maybe Valdez I think sooner or later we have some personalities to control the team

Again, Kehl, Woerns and Dede have been part of the problem for so long, I don't think they can be the solution. Out of the three, I think only Kehl is close to having that personality. I think Dede enjoys wearing the armband when he has it, but doesn't really want to lead. I think he could, but he just never steps up. And he's had enough opportunities over the years. Dede is one of those quiet guys who likes to lead by example. He does that well.


The problem is, he won't get in anyone's face when they don't follow his example. If he did, Kringe would have Dede's boot marks all over his ass!


Valdez is a hard worker. I don't see where he's a "leader." But that's just now. Perhaps with some big goals, he can step up and take the role. I'd actually expect Smolarek to step up before Valdez. I would like it if Valdez could, but I'm not expecting it.


Tinga is my top candidate for the job, but he has to learn enough of German "match language" first. He doesn't need to know German fluently, just enough to get his message across on the pitch. Dede can translate in the locker room.....


Other than that, I think we need to look for someone.

Oh, one thing you said in your initial mail that I totally agreed with was that the managment put too much pressure on this new team. But, you also have to remember that Degen and Valdez were running their mouths talking about not only top five, but top three.

So, it's really on them too. :o

[HeyaBVB]

But, you also have to remember that Degen and Valdez were running their mouths talking about not only top five, but top three.

So, it's really on them too. :o

Yeah ... our team has the potential of being a championship team .. it just lacks experience and maybe (also I think we have one) a true leader ... maybe Tinga is just the guy ... or Metze .... What I read from Nationalteam .. Metze was the one who exploded when the defense sucked and ... he started the arguement that cleansed the air and made our def. more stable ... if BvM just would let him do at BVB when he is fit

[footyfan1]

Yeah ... our team has the potential of being a championship team .. it just lacks experience and maybe (also I think we have one) a true leader ... maybe Tinga is just the guy ... or Metze .... What I read from Nationalteam .. Metze was the one who exploded when the defense sucked and ... he started the arguement that cleansed the air and made our def. more stable ... if BvM just would let him do at BVB when he is fit


What makes you think anyone is holding back Metzelder from speaking up?

I really find your "if BvM would just let him do it" comment ridiculous. Metzelder should have taken his place as a leader before BvM ever got here. I told him when I met him, "You're the future leader of this club. Get all you can from the guy coaching you (Sammer)."

Apparently, he didn't listen to me.

Metzelder is another who has been around BVB long enough to have stepped up and taken the lead and just hasn't done it. It also doesn't help that Metzelder has been next to useless for BVB recently.

Not because he isn't good enough, but because he can't stay healthy.


The only reason Metzelder really wouldn't have a voice anymore is because of his current contract status. I doubt he's even staying with the club. If he does, I think it will be because Kehl talks him into it.


I really have a hard time believing anyone had to "speak up" on the national team defense to get them going. Where did you read that? I'd love to see it.

[footyfan1]

Maybe management ISN'T completely happy with BvM's work........

This is the translation of a "teaser" found at "kicker's" website today to try to get people to purchase today's edition.

It worked. I had not planned to buy the "kicker" today, but to get the rest of this story, I think I will.




BVB: Turbulence At The Highest Level


Bert van Marwijk and Hans-Joachim Watzke both spoke on Wednesday. About one another, not together. They will do that in the next few days and discuss the content of the interviews both Borussia Dortmund leaders gave that obviously exposed irritation with one another.

Watzke admitted to the regional edition of the “Bild” newspaper that he’s disturbed over the current football situation and indirectly attacked the man responsible for the sporting area, van Marwijk.

[footyfan1]

I read the story. Quite a bit of it seemed to be speculation to me, but it is obvious Watzke is truly disappointed in the team's performance so far and yes, he's going to hold BvM responsible.

Is he right? I think only partially. I think for the rest of it, he and Herr Zorc need to look in the mirror.

If they knew their goal was the top five they should have spent wiser. Tinga was a great pickup, but with everyone else they brought in, instead of getting veteran leadership for this team, they made it even younger.

I've said time and again that you can't keep replacing experience with inexperience and expect to win.

You can't keep buying "for the future" and then expect "the future" to suddenly appear before you.

This team and this trainer are going to need time. That's a fact. The more I think about it, the more I believe "HeyaBVB" was right when he said the management and fans are putting too much pressure on the team.

Another thing Herr Watzke and Herr Zorc can look in the mirror and ask themselves is "Why didn't they buy to solve the leadership problem??"

This is not a new problem at BVB. We haven't had a leader on the field of play since Frings. Before him Amoroso and before him, Sammer.

This is why I severely doubt Sebastian Kehl is the answer. Kehl has been part of the problem for so long, how can he be the solution?

I've said here before and I'll say again, I think the only way Kehl can be the solution is if he realizes how badly the team needs him to step up and lead and he finally does so or he brings the feeling of responsibility that comes with being a new father into the locker room too.

Besides that, other than Tinga, I really don't think the answer to the leadership problem is on our roster.

And that's something Watzke and Zorc can f#cking blame on themselves.

I guess what I'm saying is that all parties are somewhat responsible for the team's "disappointing" showing right now. I think the team is more responsible than all.

The thing is, they ALL have to realize they are to blame and get down to business. BvM coming up with ways to push the team, the team realizing they are allowing themselves to be bullied and fighting back, and Watzke and Zorc being on the lookout for that leader type for either the winterpause or next season.

Thing is, as I've said before, finding that "leader-type" won't be easy. Those type of players don't grow on trees........ :o

[AMK3]

HEYABVB not a clue about a thing :D

[HeyaBVB]

HEYABVB not a clue about a thing :D
Ok this stops here and now ... otherwise I ask DF to hand you a read card ...
Only because you can't find a thing to discuss your point you start attacking other guys ... at least I gave reason for what I say .... what did you do .... ********ING ANNOYING INSULTS ..... grow up ... kid ...

[HeyaBVB]

Ok this stops here and now ... otherwise I ask DF to hand you a read card ...
Only because you can't find a thing to discuss your point you start attacking other guys ... at least I gave reason for what I say .... what did you do .... ********ING ANNOYING INSULTS ..... grow up ... kid ...
I mean red card

[AMK3]

ok maybee some of my responces have been a little childish and inscensative however i don't agree with your views on people who live outside of germany and how they can voice there opinions, like my self "People not in Germany not being able to understand the rivalry", so sould i take this personally ?. i ask you, and in future if you threaten me i would prefer if you would do it over personal e-mail rather than dissrupt the topic further.

[footyfan1]

Both of you guys please calm down. Both the comment and the response were uncalled for. Please just let it go.

[HeyaBVB]

ok maybee some of my responces have been a little childish and inscensative however i don't agree with your views on people who live outside of germany and how they can voice there opinions, like my self "People not in Germany not being able to understand the rivalry", so sould i take this personally ?. i ask you, and in future if you threaten me i would prefer if you would do it over personal e-mail rather than dissrupt the topic further.
I disrupted the topic ?? You attacked me ... several times now ..

1. I have the right to have my opinion ... if it is not yours .. its fine. I don't call you an idiot just because you think different. I think that people who don't live near Dortmund (near includes in the world-case germany and close neighbours) can't fully understand the rivalry of BVB - Schalke - Bayern. I am "close" to dortmund ... and I am not as fanatic as someone from that area ... for whom schalke is the worst enemy closely followed by Bayern. For me (ask keith) is as Northern German .. Bayern much more a bad club

2. Amoroso ... I can't stand what he did to the BVB ... for me he is as much traitor as Hitzfeldt, Moeller or Frings (who a lil bit cleared his name by saying he hated it in Munich). He played the bitching diva and cost BVB money and more ... in a time we needed his goals the most ... I never would take him again ... and lots of BVB fans think the same (Keith , imho jonam and KC think the same) , but I would take a striker with his talents but ... who fits being a teamplayer

[footyfan1]

I disrupted the topic ?? You attacked me ... several times now ..

Which will stop if you leave it alone.


1. I have the right to have my opinion ... if it is not yours .. its fine.

Think about that the next time you get upset because I say something good about Amoroso.


I don't call you an idiot just because you think different. I think that people who don't live near Dortmund (near includes in the world-case germany and close neighbours) can't fully understand the rivalry of BVB - Schalke - Bayern. I am "close" to dortmund ... and I am not as fanatic as someone from that area ... for whom schalke is the worst enemy closely followed by Bayern.

Well, I disagree with your opinion here. I think a person who doesn't live near Dortmund or even in Germany can "understand" the rivalry. You act like the BVB - Schalke rivalry is the only one of it's kind and it's not. We make more of it because we are BVB fans.


For me (ask keith) is as Northern German .. Bayern much more a bad club

For me, Bayern is still more of a rival. But, like you said, I started to hate Scheisse more once I learned why the Dortmund fans hate them more. It's a local rivalry. It's no more intense than Nuernberg v. Fuerth. It's just that Schalke v. Dortmund is done on a much larger scale.


2. Amoroso ... I can't stand what he did to the BVB ... for me he is as much traitor as Hitzfeldt, Moeller or Frings (who a lil bit cleared his name by saying he hated it in Munich). He played the bitching diva and cost BVB money and more ... in a time we needed his goals the most ... I never would take him again

Oh get over yourself. And without his goals, we don't sniff that title we did win. Why don't you look at why Amoroso did what he did??

Of course not. You'd have to realize that things internally at BVB were shit then.

No, Amoroso wasn't right. He was dead wrong. He deserves to be hated.

I hated him for awhile. However, I understand the entire situation and why he did what he did. While yes, Amoroso was completely wrong for doing what he did, BVB management didn't handle the situation well at all either. Not at all.


... and lots of BVB fans think the same (Keith , imho jonam and KC think the same) ,


What, because you think those two feel the same way you guys are "right" and I am "wrong?"

Let me tell you something. I respect their opinions just as I hope they respect mine. I respect your opinion when you aren't being childish about it. Just because I respect their opinions, doesn't mean I think their opinions are "better" than mine.

I've disagreed with both of them just as much, if not more, than I've disagreed with you.

I don't give a shit what they think on this matter, just as much as I don't give a shit what you think or the "many BVB fans who feel the same".

I know quite a few who feel the same way I do. What? We don't count because we don't agree with you?

Because more people share one opinion, that makes them right?

Get out of here with that stuff man. We just disagree. I don't care to discuss the Amoroso situation with you anymore.

I believe you refuse to look at the entire situation fairly from both sides and you always scream that I blame Sammer for everything.

Here's what I think you always look like when you comment on Amoroso.

"WAAAAH!! He hurt our club! He cost us money!"

I'll bet most of the people on this board agree with that. Does that make us "right" about you??

No. But by your apparent logic, you would seem to think so......

BTW, yes, Amoroso did hurt our club and cost us money.

BUT SO DID F#CKING GERD NIEBAUM!!!

Why don't you bitch and complain about him some?

After all, he's the one who paid way too much for Amoroso and in the end was one who helped drive him away too.


but I would take a striker with his talents but ... who fits being a teamplayer

Good luck finding that. Most strikers of Amoroso's talent level are "divas" as you like to call them.

[HeyaBVB]

BTW, yes, Amoroso did hurt our club and cost us money.

BUT SO DID F#CKING GERD NIEBAUM!!!

Why don't you bitch and complain about him some?

After all, he's the one who paid way too much for Amoroso and in the end was one who helped drive him away too.


But no one is calling for Gerd Niebaum to save our asses ... thats the difference..

If someone would say get niebaum and meier back .. I would tell tell him where he can stick them too.

[footyfan1]

But no one is calling for Gerd Niebaum to save our asses ... thats the difference..

If someone would say get niebaum and meier back .. I would tell tell him where he can stick them too.


Show me one place in THIS THREAD that someone called for Amoroso to "save our asses!"

As far as I could read, no one did.

It's the same shit with you. If Amoroso is even mentioned around here, you go on one of your crybaby rants.

Man, you need to just let it go. Get over it already.

I don't think I'm the only one who gets tired of your bitching and crying any time anyone mentions the guy's name.

You don't have to forgive the guy, but please stop bitching any time anyone mentions his name!

Just move on to the next post.......