Jorge Vergara: Friend or Foe?

[DelChiverio]

I am a skeptic of Jorge Vergara's promises. There are a lot of rumors and accusations for and against Vergara in the press today. I have attempted to be balanced and not be swayed by everything I read or hear. I admit that this man is an enigma to me. I sometimes do not know what to think of him. I would like the opinion of Chivistas of this enigmatic person. No trolls or anti-Chivas characters need not apply in this thread! I appeal to the Mods if the above happens. The purpose of this thread is to know what Chivistas and supporters of our team think about the owner of our beloved team.

Is Jorge Vergara the friend of Chivas or a foe of Chivas? Does he want the best for our team because he loves the jersey or because he wants the exposure for himself and his company Omnilife? Is it true that Vergara is a(n) Atlas fan? What is the context, background, or reasons for the sale of Club Guadalajara in Colomos? Is he planning to sell the team soon? Has the Templo Mayor (Chivas new stadium) been completed? If not, Vergara failed misery in his promise to have the stadium ready for the Centenario. Who really is Jorge Vergara? What plans does he have for our beloved team? What grade would you give Vergara?

According to this shocking article Vergara stated that he is not owner of Chivas S.A.!:
http://www.milenio.com/mexico/laaficion/nota.asp?id=440025

Quote from above article:
"Gracias a que Jorge Vergara declaró no tener nada que ver con el Club Deportivo Guadalajara SA de CV, se libró de un proceso penal por robo y despojo."

In a article today by La Opinion (daily newspaper from Los Angeles, CA) we read this: "En medio de un ejército de detractores, queda claro que con todo y sus desplantes, caprichos, excentricidades y demás, Vergara fue lo mejor que pudo pasarle a Chivas. Antes de él, estuvo Salvador Martínez Garza, multimillonario mexicano, él sí, chiva hasta la demencia, la que le llevó al afán de edificar a las Súper Chivas sin éxito y que le costó pérdidas por 20 millones de dólares e hipotecar el patrimonio familiar, incluyendo a la empresa Mexlub, una especie de monopolio de aceites en México. Antes de Martínez Garza, Chivas se hundía en la crisis. Sin directivos, sin líderes, sin dinero, sin jugadores, sin futbol, sin futuro. Vergara ahora sufre algo similar. Pero ha tomado acciones correctas".
http://www.laopinion.com/deportes/futbol_mexicano/?rkey=00060926001219586665
This article also talks about Vergara making a contract with Telemundo for the transmission of Guadalajara's matches in 2008. The article also quotes a "confidant" who states that the team will surely be sold. When? He does not say.

Again, what is your opinion of the owner of our beloved team? Please enlighten me I do not know all the facts!

[LMvCP]

If you take this thread out of this forum and post it in the regular Mexico forum. I cant answer your questions with my answers based on facts, interviews, and incidents. :D

I dont dislike any owner just because they own a specific team. I wish every club owner was serious about winning (like Alvarez, Azcarraga). I wish every owner had deep pockets to build thier clubs state of the art stadiums, training grounds, etc. I wish more than anything that ever owner was serious about their club. More so than money, more so than wanting to win... not having serious owners is why things like Ahumada, Colibries, etc occur in our football.

[Banner or Hulk?]

I cant stand Vergara, hes nothing but a mouth, always talking something or other and then doesnt back it up. Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words, he doesnt seem to realize that though because it seems like every week hes got something new to say. And since his reign, what does Chivas have to show for it? Nothing.

[DelChiverio]

If you take this thread out of this forum and post it in the regular Mexico forum. I cant answer your questions with my answers based on facts, interviews, and incidents. :D

I dont dislike any owner just because they own a specific team. I wish every club owner was serious about winning (like Alvarez, Azcarraga). I wish every owner had deep pockets to build thier clubs state of the art stadiums, training grounds, etc. I wish more than anything that ever owner was serious about their club. More so than money, more so than wanting to win... not having serious owners is why things like Ahumada, Colibries, etc occur in our football.

I wrote: "The purpose of this thread is to know what Chivistas and supporters of our team think about the owner of our beloved team". However, as long it is okay with the rest of the chiverio in this forum, I am open to any facts, not mudslinging or ad-hominem comments, from you LMvCP. I need the feedback from at least three or more pro-Chivas posters to agree with the above before you post anything. What do you think Chivistas? Are you open for the facts and only facts about the owner of our team presented by LMvCP? Of course, if we accept the above, we can later appeal to the Mods so that LMvCP may be kicked out of this Chivas forum if he violates the agreement. Do you agree, LMvCP with the terms of only presenting facts to find answers that I posted in my first post? If you do agree, please wait until two to three chivistas allow you to speak.

I appreciate that you are not against an owner for the simple fact that he is the owner of a particular team. I feel the same way. You will not find any threads made by me that attacks the integrity of any owner of a rival team. I attempt to stay away from name calling, mudslinging, and ad-hominem comments. I want to know the truth about Vergara. I value your comments because you are knowledgeable about Mexican Football. Thank you for your willingness to share the info. you have.

I am ready for your feedback chivistas. I want to note that I am going to work until 8:30PM Pacific Time. I do not have access to a computer at work. So do not wait for me if the conditions are meet. Post away.

[Banner or Hulk?]

Sure. After all, it is a public message board.

[Rebaño_Sagrado]

I'm on board with hearing what LvMRDL has to say regarding Vergara.

I do expect his comments to be tongue-in-cheek though.

Lets hear it.

[Various Styles]

Is Jorge Vergara the friend of Chivas or a foe of Chivas? Does he want the best for our team because he loves the jersey or because he wants the exposure for himself and his company Omnilife?

At this point I would say that Vergara is friend of Chivas. He has afterall cleared the club from its original debts, cleaned the jersey, and invested enough money into the club that the team is highly competetive and has one of the best, if not the best, canteras in the MFL.

As far as love for the jersey, well that is difficult to say without knowing Vergara personaly. I do know that he didnt know about futbol, or was a futbol fan before buying the club. However, being from Guadalajara and present in the mayority of the home games and classicos, I do not doubt some of the Chivas passion has grown on him.

Also, he did make his money with Omnilife so obviously he will use the club to promote his health products and vice versa. He is doing his buissness afterall. No diffrent that any other club owners really. Cemento Cruz Azul anyone. As long as he doesnt change the name of the team to OmniChivas im cool.


Is it Tue that Vergara is a(n) Atlas fan?

Vergara is new to soccer, he even admited to that when buying Chivas.
Thing is Omnilife used to be a sponser in the Atlas jersey so the Wila fans like to play that out.

What is the context, background, or reasons for the sale of Club Guadalajara in Colomos?

As far as I know old Club House was in terrible conditions and because of zonning issues it was difficult to invest money in the club house to make new buildings, parking structures ect. Hence they opted to sell the club.

However, I honestly dont think the Directiva, originally, planned on building a new club house. I think someone in the Chivas organization got a deal to sell the property and make massive money, enough to go around and build a new and improved facilty.

Is he planning to sell the team soon?

I honestly doubt this. Chivas has been making money and gives massive exposure to Omnilife. I dont see why he would sell the club unless some other company or buisnessman has valued the club at an even higher price, which can only mean the club will very rich!

Has the Templo Mayor (Chivas new stadium) been completed? If not, Vergara failed misery in his promise to have the stadium ready for the Centenario.

Indeed another failed promise by Vergara but the stadium is getting built. It doesnt matter if it takes longer as long as it gets completed. Once Chivas starts playings their games there no one will care that it wasnt ready for centenario because it will be the most modern footy stadium in Mexico.

Who really is Jorge Vergara? What plans does he have for our beloved team? What grade would you give Vergara?

Vergara is a savy buisnessman. His main flaw with Chivas is not knowing soccer, therefore he has to put too much trust into other directives, many of who have their own personal agendas.

Like Nestor De La Torre pulling strings so that instead of getting Bianchi as DT his cousin Yayo gets the job. This only made Vergara look bad but he was doing what he was told was best for the team.

Nestor like Frangie have made many of the bad decisions that have affected Chivas. Bringing in Azkargota, getting rid of Hans. And Vergara gets all the blame, granted he is the president but he is still green when it comes to footy decisons.

Again, what is your opinion of the owner of our beloved team? Please enlighten me I do not know all the facts!

There are many people that are losing Money everytime Vergara improves the club, many of these Chiva socios who had a golden ticket with the old administration are now getting the shaft and they are the ones complaing.

There are people who have a palco guaranteed for ninety years at Jalisco stadium. If Chivas gets a New stadium they are f'cked. They can no longer, loan it out or rent it out. Same happened with the old club, which was the location of a restaurant of one of the people complaining about the property being sold. f'ck them.

[Chivin]

As far as I know old Club House was in terrible conditions and because of zonning issues it was difficult to invest money in the club house to make new buildings, parking structures ect. Hence they opted to sell the club.
that is very true!!!
Yo creci en ese lugar, y daba lastima: paredes cuarteadas, habia que buscar estacionamiento a 2 cuadras del lugar, los trampolines y plataformas estaban cerrados casi todo el ano porque tenian miedo a que se cayera, NO HABIA CANCHAS DE FUTBOL PARA LOS USUARIOS!, el gimnasio era de inos 3.50 mts X 10, etc.
Y una de las cosas que Vergara prometio, era un club nuevo, y todos sabiamos que eso significaba deshacerse de este viejo, y la verdad es que yo estoy contento, con todo y que me quedaba a 10 cuadras caminando.

[Various Styles]

Chivin,

Me alegra que estes en esta conversacion. Especialmente por que estuviestes en la Casa Club y vives o estuvistes en Guadalajara.

La mayoria de nosotros, incluyendome a mi mismo, solo nos podemos basar en lo que sale en los periodicos. Y ahora con la controversia creada por ex socios hay muchos aca que comiensan a dudor o otros que toman ventaja de la situacion para tener cosas negativas que decir del equipo o dueno.

Asi que le pongo mas importancia a la palabra de un Chiva Hermano que de los anti chivas que se la pasan buscando notas sobre la venta del club y de lleno en la novela creada por los ex socios que en su tiempo como encargados casi ponian al equipo en manos de Televisa.

[LMvCP]

Here is how it went down.

Vergara and his legal counsel [from now on just known as Vergara] approached Guadalajara's club members and showed interest in attaining their certificate of ownership. Back when most teams were administered by clubs (civil, non profit organizations), clubs had members and these members basically raised money (or donated their money for tax breaks) for their teams. With many members, they would pool their money and that is how they would aquire stadiums, pay salaries, etc. In theory, it is a non profit entity but its proceeds are only suppose to go to the actual entity to pay salaries, maintain its facilities, and basically maintain its existance.

Vergara made a total of 3 propositions to the club members. The first proposal really was nothing more than bait. Vergara proposed that each member would recieve $3,000,000 Pesos MN and that he would make Chivas a world class team. Guadalajara's current administration, under Cardenas, disregarded the proposal and thought he lacked seriousness.

Weeks went by and Vergara still persisted and made a 2nd offer, which really is irrevelent. The current board then held a meeting and made their members an offer, IF they had plans on leaving the civil asociation. They proposed that they would receive $2,500,000 Pesos MN and that they would be stockholders in a new company with rights to dividends.

Vergara then held a meeting and it was his 3rd proposal that got him the club. Vergara proposed the following; $250,000 pesos MN with an additional $6,000,000 Pesos MN in stocks in the club. He concluded that they would still be categorized as club members, and that for the following 5 years, their annual divedends would be honored.

Out of the 190 club members, 160 showed up for that particular meeting. They voted the following

146 in favor of Vergara's proposal
11 abstained their vote
3 voted against Vergara's proposal

Here is the dilemna.

A "Sociedad Anonima" is a legal form to conduct business. It is like a Type S corporation here in the U.S. In essense, a corporation is a person that exist on paper.

A "Asociacion Civil" is a legal form to conduct public works. It is very much like a non-profit organization here in the U.S.

Cardenas kept insisting to his club members that what was being proposed was illegal. He kept on saying that the A.C. could not be converted to an S.A.

Vergara argued that the A.C. could in fact be converted to a S.A. His legal counsel based his argument on a tribunal case which had jurisdiction in Mexico City.

Cardenas' legal counsel responded and made aware to Vergara's legal counsel that 1) a sociedad civil (S.C) was converted to a Sociedad Mercantil (S.M.) and 2) Guadalajara was not a S.C., they are an A.C. Cardena's counsel then went on to say that Vergar's legal counsel was just causing confusion because the Mexico City Civil Code (laws pertaining to civil matters) is only applicable in mercantile activities and that Chivas was not engaging in mercantile activities since it was (and is) a S.A.

Cardenas's counsel also provided that under the CIVIL CODE of JALISCO (not Mexico City), no A.C. may be transformed nor converted. They also went on to say that Article 66 of Guadalajara's (chivas) own bylaws stated that if the club were ever to be disssolved, it would be dissolved using the Jalisco Civil Code, NOT MEXICO CITY CODE.

Jalisco Civil code states that if a S.A. were ever to be liquidated, that all assets are to be transfered to public beneficiaries or the government.

Vergara insisted that it was the will of the members to host the meeting, a meeting that was considered illegal by Cardenas and a meeting he was thrown out of.

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2002/10/30/21an2dep.php?origen=deportes.html

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2002/10/31/043n1dep.php?origen=deportes.html

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Law does state that a non-profit civil association cant be converted. It is there where ex club members are having problems because every court they go to, they are being redirected another way. That is why they think that Fox's family is involved. They are going to the proper courts to dispute cases that are being thrown out.

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If you do the math,

190 members x $250,000 pesos

that turns out to be a pretty penny and just how did he have the money? He did not

El empresario mexicano Jorge Vergara dijo que cuando negoció la compra de las Chivas del Guadalajara no tenía los 190 millones de dólares que ofreció para hacerse de la propiedad del club más popular del fútbol mexicano.

Chivas ha dejado de ganar 16 millones de dólares

"No tenía dinero para pagar los 60 millones de dólares iniciales, y si los socios lo hubieran sabido estoy seguro de que no se hubiera hecho el trato", dijo Vergara en declaraciones divulgadas por la prensa y la radio mexicana.


http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56947&page=2&highlight=jorge+vergara

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I think it is fair to question the legality of how Chivas changed ownership.

Jalisco law states that NO S.A. can be transformed nor converted to another legal form.

Jalisco law states that if in case a S.A. is liquidated, then all assets (land) is suppose to transfer to the public or government.

Article 66 of Club Deportivo Guadalajara, A.C. stated that if in case the association ever had to be dissolved, the state of Jalisco's Civil Code would be used to determine the legalities.

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I think it is also fair to question how the clubs was paid for.

Vergara admited that he did not have the intial 60 M USD to pay its members?

I think it is fair to question and ask the following

How much money did he have?
From whom did he get the money? or Where?
Did he use any proceeds from Chivas to pay members?

You can question Vergara/Omnilife's finances. Are they actually a strong company or do they just look good on paper? Another poster asked the question, "how much can he make off Omnilife when the drink is not even popular at all?"

Why is the JVC project at a halt? Why hasnt anything been erected? Why is Chivas' stadium still a patch of dirt? Why isnt the stadium ready for Chivas' centenial year (as he promised)? Why did he say he would not "prostitute" the jersey, and then go back on his word and do it?

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[LMvCP]

que en su tiempo como encargados casi ponian al equipo en manos de Televisa.



Irrelevent. Chivas went from Imevision to Televisa in the early 90s (IIRC). Did you complain when they had more money to buy players? Did you complain when they won a title? Spare the crap about going into bed with Televisa because they all go to bed with each other. Vergara's omnilife was on Atlas' jersey.

Vergara has been with the team almost 5 years, he is still with Televisa? Why doesnt he go with TV Azteca? But this is not about who goes to bed with whom

The author of this thread wants to know all the legal questions that have been come up the past couple days (as a result of the sale of those instalations).

If the club would have remained an A.C (asociacion civil), Vergara would have never been able to sell that property at a price tag of 30+ million dollars. The reason that people are concerned is because

1) if the AC would have sold it, the MONEY, BY LAW, would have to be used for and by the club.

2) the current board is not legally obligated to use the funds back into the club. Yes, Frangie can publicly say that all the money will go to X project, but they are not obligated to by law.

[Rebaño_Sagrado]

Irrelevent. Chivas went from Imevision to Televisa in the early 90s (IIRC). Did you complain when they had more money to buy players? Did you complain when they won a title? Spare the crap about going into bed with Televisa because they all go to bed with each other. Vergara's omnilife was on Atlas' jersey.

Vergara has been with the team almost 5 years, he is still with Televisa? Why doesnt he go with TV Azteca? But this is not about who goes to bed with whom

The author of this thread wants to know all the legal questions that have been come up the past couple days (as a result of the sale of those instalations).

If the club would have remained an A.C (asociacion civil), Vergara would have never been able to sell that property at a price tag of 30+ million dollars. The reason that people are concerned is because

1) if the AC would have sold it, the MONEY, BY LAW, would have to be used for and by the club.

2) the current board is not legally obligated to use the funds back into the club. Yes, Frangie can publicly say that all the money will go to X project, but they are not obligated to by law.
So Chivas has in effect gone from a A.C. to S.A.? (Non-profit to For-Profit-Corp)

[LMvCP]

So Chivas has in effect gone from a A.C. to S.A.? (Non-profit to For-Profit-Corp)

That is correct.

Let me also add that I do not think that is a bad thing. In fact, I think Mexico's laws should adopt something similar to what the English and Spanish have done by the creation of the SAD (Sociedad Anonima Deportiva). It is a hybrid of the two, where the law does make it aware that the organization is for profit, but also has numerous tax breaks because it promotes cultural and public works.

But, I do think it is unfortunate how the club changed its legal form. I am not a legal expert and even here in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania when I was in the process of registering a non-profit organization, I read the statutes about if and when the entity ever siezed to exist, that all assets would have to go to the public. That is pretty much standard. I reiterate, I am not a legal expert but how do you find a loophole for that? Is political influence a possibility?

[Differ]

Good stuff LMvCP.

There's definitely some shady dealings in how Vergara acquired and converted Chivas into a corporation. Now with the rumors that one of President Fox's relatives purchased the land the Club stands on makes it seem like there are some political ties involved. Rumors, however, are just that. People have said that the conditions of the facilities weren't all that great, but what strikes me as odd was that there was no plan laid out for future facilities. Atleast, as far as I'm aware. Come December there's gonna be $30-35 million lying around? Please.

As you mentioned, by converting to an SA it doesn't legally obligate them to spend club earnings on the club itself. Leading me to believe that there are lots of people who got in on the ground floor pocketing the excess funds the club has produced. They can say the money the club makes is used only on the club itself as many times as they want, but it'd be ignorant to think so.

Stadiums out here have an average turn-around of 2-3 years from the date of groundbreaking. From what I've seen, the JVC isn't even in the same time frame. At this point, the Yankees will have a new stadium (2009) before the JVC is built. Anybody have any recent Google map images of the patch where it's supposed to be?

I'm sure Vergara's products "don't sell as a result of advertising" (http://www.banderasnews.com/0606/edat-mexsocccerbiz.htm) alone, but the injection of funds from Chivas must certainly help.

[aguilas]

The facilities were terrible. These last 4 months that I was in Guadalajara, I went to a training session because my uncle is a lawyer and he was taking care of some business, and it was just awful. It looked like a place where a 3rd division team practiced.

[LMvCP]

The facilities were terrible. These last 4 months that I was in Guadalajara, I went to a training session because my uncle is a lawyer and he was taking care of some business, and it was just awful. It looked like a place where a 3rd division team practiced.

interesting... your uncle wouldnt have been there trying to drop the charges they had against for invading the field? :D

[Chivin]

Irrelevent. Chivas went from Imevision to Televisa in the early 90s (IIRC). Did you complain when they had more money to buy players? Did you complain when they won a title? Spare the crap about going into bed with Televisa because they all go to bed with each other. Vergara's omnilife was on Atlas' jersey.

Vergara has been with the team almost 5 years, he is still with Televisa? Why doesnt he go with TV Azteca? But this is not about who goes to bed with whom

The author of this thread wants to know all the legal questions that have been come up the past couple days (as a result of the sale of those instalations).

If the club would have remained an A.C (asociacion civil), Vergara would have never been able to sell that property at a price tag of 30+ million dollars. The reason that people are concerned is because

1) if the AC would have sold it, the MONEY, BY LAW, would have to be used for and by the club.

2) the current board is not legally obligated to use the funds back into the club. Yes, Frangie can publicly say that all the money will go to X project, but they are not obligated to by law.
The change to Televisa had nothing to do with it, that's when chivas was separated from club to promotora.

[Chivin]

no importa si es verdad o no, yo estuve ahy para todo ese rollo, y los que vendiron a Vergara, vendieron porque estaban cansados de como se manejaban las cosas, si Vergara no hubiera comprado, el equipo hubiera tenido que ser rentado otra vez, y las instalaciones embargadas

[DelChiverio]

Moderator Various Styles:

I appreciate your comments chiva hermano. You have a positive image of Jorge Vergara. Before reading some of the controversial material in the last week or so I also had a similar perspective of this man and his work. I need to read and know more. I do not want to be swayed to the negative pole or the positive pole. I want to be balanced, fair, and analytical. After all, this man is the owner of our beloved Chivas and he deserves our respect. I want to be very careful in not casting aspersions and unjust accusations towards this man.

I do not want to cause division with my chiva hermanos in our Chivas Forum. At first, I thought it would be helpful to have LMvCP to post his material in this thread thinking it would be a good idea. I was wrong. I acted in haste and with no prudence. Initially, I did not want to have it this way. This was the my initial purpose: "The purpose of this thread is to know what Chivistas and supporters of our team think about the owner of our beloved team". Please accept my apology in having this kind of debate in our Chivas Forum. Dialogue, debate, and discussion about this sensitive and controversial subject with club rivals should be conducted in the Mexico Fourm not here. Again, I apologize to everyone. Nonetheless, Thank you LMvCP for your information which I still want to look at but not in this forum. I am going to read the links you have provided and will look forward to talking with you in the "ChivasGate Scandal" Thread sometime after the Clasico. Thank you Chiva hermanos for your contributions. This subject is taking away my joy for the Clasico. Very bad timing on my part.

Moderator: If it is not against the rules I request that you please close this thread. Thank you.

[LMvCP]

no importa si es verdad o no, yo estuve ahy para todo ese rollo, y los que vendiron a Vergara, vendieron porque estaban cansados de como se manejaban las cosas, si Vergara no hubiera comprado, el equipo hubiera tenido que ser rentado otra vez, y las instalaciones embargadas

por favor, no dramatices. la gran mayoria de los socios vendieron por motivos economicos. Vergara prometio $250,000 pesos de enganche mas $6,000,000 pesos en acciones con derecho a los dividenos. Todo esto ya esta bien documentado.

Si en realidad estuvieran cansados del mal manejo, no hubieran vendido. Con vender su certificado, los socios tenian el derecho de poner su granito de arena, ahora ya no. Ahora no los toman en cuenta.

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Una pregunta en general

como vas a justificar los actos turbios de Vergara? Entiendo que la directiva anterior manejo mal el equipo, pero no deberian de justificar las trampas que se cometieron para obtener el equipo por que eso indica que tambien son capaces del mal manejo. ojo----lo que empieza mal, termina mal...