Man U v Arsenal - Keeper handling

[Dr Jay]

In the ManU v Arsenal game yesterday (a classic btw), Lehmann, the Arsenal keeper was called for handling outside the area. A yellow card and direct free kick from just outside the penalty area was awarded. The ball had been rolling toward the area with a Man U player bearing down on it when Lehmann picked it up.

I thought the ball was clearly on top of the pa line when Lehmann picked it up. Isn't the line part of the PA ? So if any of the ball is on the line, it should be ok for the keeper to pick it up ? Does it matter whether the ball comes from inside the area towards the outside or vice versa ?

In other words...did the ref blow the call or not ?

[Wahoo]

In the ManU v Arsenal game yesterday (a classic btw), Lehmann, the Arsenal keeper was called for handling outside the area. A yellow card and direct free kick from just outside the penalty area was awarded. The ball had been rolling toward the area with a Man U player bearing down on it when Lehmann picked it up.

I thought the ball was clearly on top of the pa line when Lehmann picked it up. Isn't the line part of the PA ? So if any of the ball is on the line, it should be ok for the keeper to pick it up ? Does it matter whether the ball comes from inside the area towards the outside or vice versa ?

In other words...did the ref blow the call or not ?

It does not matter from whence the ball came.
The line is part of the penalty area so if any part of the ball is over (or on) the line, the ball is "IN" the penalty area.

Edited to add:
From the Laws of the Game:
Law 1 - The Field of Play
Field Markings - The field of play is marked with lines. These lines belong to the areas of which they are boundaries.


So, IF (and that's a big "if") the ball was on the line, then the ref blew the call.

[sandaroo]

In other words...did the ref blow the call or not ?
Right or wrong....the referee is always is right. Gotta love Law 5 :cool:

However, it did seem that the ball was on the penalty area line, which is part of the penalty area. So in this case Lehmann shouldn't have been called for the handling offense.

It does not matter that the ball had been outside the PA prior to Lehmann picking it up. All that matters is that the ball was last kicked by Scholes - an opponent - and the position of the ball. A goalkeeper is allowed to dribble a ball back into his PA and collect it as long it was not deliberately kicked to him by a teammate.

BTW...you're right it was a great game.

[JohnR]

It is odd that the announcers got this wrong, in that they are experienced soccer guys who are of course aware that it's not a goal unless the ball completely crosses the line, it's not out of touch unless the ball completely goes over the line, etc. Yet with the instant replay showing the ball dead on the line, they each pronounced Lehmann guilty of handling the ball.

[blech]

It is odd that the announcers got this wrong, in that they are experienced soccer guys who are of course aware that it's not a goal unless the ball completely crosses the line, it's not out of touch unless the ball completely goes over the line, etc. Yet with the instant replay showing the ball dead on the line, they each pronounced Lehmann guilty of handling the ball.

they also kept going on and on about a possible red card for DOGSO. very hard for me to see how you ever get to the point of an obvious goal scoring opportunity when it was Lehman who had the ball and was dribbling/touching it back toward the area (i.e., the forward didn't have possession of the ball but instead was charging the ball in possession of the opponent).

[NHRef]

didn't see it, but how did the ball get to the keeper? who played it last and how? Basically, any chance it was intentionally kicked to him by a teammate?

[yossarian]

didn't see it, but how did the ball get to the keeper? who played it last and how? Basically, any chance it was intentionally kicked to him by a teammate?

No, it was not played back to Lehmann by a teammate. IIRC, it was a long ball played slightly wide of the penalty area meant for Rooney to run onto. Lehmann came out to get it but wasn't quite quick enough to dribble the ball entirely back into the penalty area before picking it up.

However, I agree with some of the other posters in this thread that the ball was on the line when Lehmann picked up.....thus Poll was incorrect with his call.

[superdave]

It is odd that the announcers got this wrong,

Announcers are idiots. (Even more than referees. :D) From a very old thread, when Lehman was at Dortmund.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23056&highlight=Lehman


Willy Sagnol makes a great dribble run very near the end line, and crosses. A Dortmund defender runs past the end line. The cross is deflected right back to Sagnol, who crosses/shoots. Pizarro gets to the ball and knocks it in. More or less simultaneous to this, the Dortmund defender who was off pitch comes on. (It was a very short and hard pass/shot.) The Dortmund players protest because they think Pizarro was offside. The AR (apparently) ruled that the defender coming back on played Pizarro on. Pizarro was clearly past all other BD defenders.

1. Is the "moment of truth" when any part of the defender's body crosses all of the endline (even if in the air)? Or is it when his foot touches the ground? Or a majority of his body?

2. Is the other "moment of truth" when the ball is played by Sagnol, or touched by Pizarro? I would have thought the former, but Allen Hopkins was talking like it was the latter. Because Pizarro was played on by a player re-entering the field, I thought it might be possible that the moment the defender steps back in, everything is re-set, and Pizarro is then onside.

To my eyes, here was the sequence. Sagnol hits it at, within a fraction of a second either way, the moment when the Dortmund defener's foot (in the air) crosses the endline. (With the angles we saw, you can't second guess the AR.) Pizarro's touch was, within a fraction of a second either way, the moment when the defender's foot hit the ground. I don't think the defender's body crossed the line until after the goal was scored. (Pizarro's shot was from about a yard out.)

Anyway, BD was already a man down for a 2nd yellow. They were lucky another player hadn't picked up a 2nd yellow earlier. On the disputed goal, the BD GK picked up his 2nd yellow, both for dissent. BD had used all 3 subs, so Koller went into goal.


Check it out to solve the mystery.

[NHRef]

No, it was not played back to Lehmann by a teammate. IIRC, it was a long ball played slightly wide of the penalty area meant for Rooney to run onto. Lehmann came out to get it but wasn't quite quick enough to dribble the ball entirely back into the penalty area before picking it up.

However, I agree with some of the other posters in this thread that the ball was on the line when Lehmann picked up.....thus Poll was incorrect with his call.

OK, second thought, he picked it up while it was on the line, when he stood up, did the ball come out of the PA?? Like if you bend over to pick up something then stand up, the something is now over your feet, if you are reaching into the PA to pick up the ball, then stand up, its possible to actually take the ball out of the PA.

Or.... the ref screwed up. :rolleyes:

[Wreave]

Where was the ref? It may have been a question of a bad angle. Certainly the ref knew that the ball was in the PA if it was on the line. So if he blew it, it wasn't because he forgot the line was part of the PA - it was because his judgement was that the ball was outside the PA while being handled by Lehmann.

[Englishref]

Graham Poll was the ref. He was about 25-30 yards from the incident up field, and about 7 to 8 yards out of line with the side of the PA. Tbf to him, it did look outside from his angle, however, the replays clearly show it was on the line. Graham did compound his mistake, though, by indicating that he was right in line with it. He clearly hasn't learnt that the PL, and especially these massive games, have about 20+ cameras, and one unfortunately picked up that he was far from in line. :D

Other than that, I thought he had a great game in what is traditionally one of the most difficult to handle in the PL season. :cool:

And it was also a superb game, played in a good spirit, with plenty of attacking play. Oh, and the result was even better. :p

[JohnR]

And it was also a superb game, played in a good spirit, with plenty of attacking play.

No Giggs, no Henry, Rooney was crap, Saha was crap, no van Persie, no Park, Pires is gone, Scholes was tired, and John O'Shea would be best suited for MLS ... and you're absolutely right, it was nevertheless a brilliant game. There are many good players on those two squads.

[yossarian]

OK, second thought, he picked it up while it was on the line, when he stood up, did the ball come out of the PA?? Like if you bend over to pick up something then stand up, the something is now over your feet, if you are reaching into the PA to pick up the ball, then stand up, its possible to actually take the ball out of the PA.


I won't swear that the above did not happen...as I'd have to watch it again. However, as Englishref has very articulately stated....Poll wasn't exactly in the best position to see either way.

Also, regarding Wreave's query....I'm sure Poll knows the rule but just thought from his view that the ball was over the line.

[Wreave]

So it's a simple error in judgement. Poll thought the ball was still outside the PA. It wasn't.

Now, add in the next layer - was the judgement error a result of a positioning error, or did the play change so fast that Poll didn't have a chance to respond?

[Wahoo]

So it's a simple error in judgement. Poll thought the ball was still outside the PA. It wasn't.

Now, add in the next layer - was the judgement error a result of a positioning error, or did the play change so fast that Poll didn't have a chance to respond?

A Simple error with a potential disastrous effect on the game seeing as how Lehman now has a card and the free kick is VERY close to goal.

What I want to know is where was the AR ... I would think he'd have had a better view.

[Englishref]

What I want to know is where was the AR ... I would think he'd have had a better view.

It happened on the right back side of the PA, and Poll, as with all FIFA refs, runs LBs, so Poll was probably in the best position, but still wasn't in the necessary position to be able to tell for certain, given the minute margins he was dealing with.

[Wahoo]

It happened on the right back side of the PA, and Poll, as with all FIFA refs, runs LBs, so Poll was probably in the best position, but still wasn't in the necessary position to be able to tell for certain, given the minute margins he was dealing with.

I wish I'd seen footage of it because I'm trying to piece it together in my mind from the descriptions...

But if it happened on the right back side and Poll was running from left back to left back... wouldn't the AR have been closer?
Even if it was on Poll's side, I'm thinking hte AR should have been even with the play and able to tell if it had made it to the Penalty Area.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't suppose until I see a clip :D

Thanks

[MassachusettsRef]

Didn't see it, but it sounds like it wasn't a top of the area issue, but a side of the area--making it impossible for the AR to tell if he's on the opposite touch. I could be misintepreting, though.

[blech]

Didn't see it, but it sounds like it wasn't a top of the area issue, but a side of the area--making it impossible for the AR to tell if he's on the opposite touch. I could be misintepreting, though.

yes, it was a side of area play. neither ar would have had a good angle.

[ManiacalClown]

Yes, AR on that half of the field would have the wrong perspective, and the AR on the other half would likely be too far away. It was Poll's call, but he apparently flubbed it.

It's not a huge deal, though. It was a judgement call that he got wrong. It wasn't a matter of incorrectly applying the laws of the game like the WC incident.

This WILL get a lot more press than it would normally due to the referee, however.