Misconduct and the young'uns

[nsa]

In the "coach and referee" (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=893344#post893344) situation thread dolphinscoach added a post about a U7 match that deserves it's own thread.

How do we deal with misconduct in the U-little games (U6 through U10)? "Careless, reckless, or using excessive force" sounds like a typical U10 player, because they don't know any better.
Our club does not want the refs to use cards or send-offs at this age. They prefer blowing the whistle and talking to the offender.This is what we teach locally. We also say that if a player continues to misbehave, then the referee must ask the coach to sub out the player and talk to him/her. In a serious situation we advise the referee not to allow the player to participate further in the match. This allows other young players to play while penalising only the bad one.

But, some new refs don't blow the whistle and don't talk to the player.In our leagues, refs are supposed to explain to the kids what was done wrong that resulted in the whistle being blown (thus, the coach's idea that refs would instruct the kids when they did something wrong). However, since the ref was not blowing the whistle for the punch, etc., no instruction occurred.New referees must be mentored and monitored in their first few games.It doesn't matter how young the kids are. If the kids are a danger, please remove them. By not doing so, you are inadvertently teaching them that dangerous play is allowable, and you are putting other kids at risk.Well said, dolphinscoach. I would only add that we do not teach them that dangerous play is allowable, we teach them that illegal play is allowable.

[Gary V]

I agree, you can often address behavior in the u-littles without having to resort to cards. But you shouldn't be prohibited from using your cards if that's what it takes.

Not to excuse the ref, but he was a youth. Sometimes they are not comfortable with flexing the Laws as needed. He could only see the directive he'd been given, "Don't card a u8." He didn't see any of the alternatives - talking with the player, talking with the coach, etc.

One u8 game long ago, a player brought down an opponent from behind, resulting in an injury. "Tackle from behind which endangers ..." right? Possibly. But there was no need for a sendoff. All the kids are down on the ground for the injury (whoever started THAT, anyway?) so I simply walked over to the perp. Here's this giant black object looming over him (still old-style shirts then), and I simply said, "You know you have to be more careful coming from behind, right?" He looks up at me with puppy eyes and manages to whimper, "Uh huh."

Now in the case presented, with a player punching the opponents, I might go with a card. More likely, I'd try to play "Let's Make a Deal" with the coach. Call the coach and player over together, privately. Show the player my wallet with the cards still in it, and ask if he knew what they were, and what would happen if he was shown a card. Then tell the coach that I wanted the player subbed and he is not to return that day. That way they don't have to play short, I don't have to report it, he won't have to sit out any games for discipline, and the problem is taken care of. Should the coach be enough of a jerk to not take such a deal and insist he can play, I can deal with the player harshly if anything else happens.

[Blitzz Boy]

Here's a question from The Rookie Ref:

With kids that young, would talking to the team captain ever be appropriate?

For example, the guy who taught our ref class mentioned that, in some cases, talking to the team captain can be helpful in cases when the coach has blown out a blood vessel screaming at the ref crew.

Team captains are, in some cases, the more talented players. So could they do a little "peer counseling" on one of their teammates who is Persistantly infringing or going in cleats-up or whatever?

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by Blitzz Boy
...With kids that young, would talking to the team captain ever be appropriate?
...

With Ulittles, the captain is usually the one who brought treats. With the little guys, talk to the coach, and suggest a substitution while he explains to the player what he can and can't do. And SMILE. :) If the coach seems oblivious, suggest he explain to him/her that striking, body slamming, etc. is not legal in this game, and that he needs to let the others play for a while while he gets a "timeout".

[Gary V]

Originally posted by Blitzz Boy
With kids that young, would talking to the team captain ever be appropriate?
U-littles take turns being captain. As soon as the coin toss is over, they forget who the captain is.

Besides, you gonna tell that 8-year-old to deliver a message to the coach for you? "Please go over there and tell that unreasonable individual to shape up. I'd do it, but he's intimidating me." Even if the captain does say something to the coach, the message will be hopelessly garbled.

Older kids, it sometimes works - or sometimes slightly backfires. In a u14g game, one player was being ragged on by the coach, and I could tell it was upsetting her. I asked her if she wanted me to say something to the coach. "No." Then she turns to the sideline, "Hey Mom, SHUT UP!!"

[Blitzz Boy]

Thanks for the advice!

Do many "U Littles" seem to have "bad intent" or "Schumacher on Battiston/Balboa on Calichman" type fouls?

Or is it more a question of they are just running too fast to stop & mow down an opponent?

[Gary V]

Originally posted by Blitzz Boy
Do many "U Littles" seem to have "bad intent" Nope.

But some have a lack of self control, and many have a lack of empathy for their fellow players. They don't set out to hurt someone; they just don't think about anyone else. (Which gives the coaches of the u-very-littles no end of frustration. They don't have a soccer team, they have a collection of individuals playing a game resembling soccer.)

[dolphinscoach]

I'm enjoying reading the comments on this thread--very helpful for me.

Touching on some of the points raised:
Captains - At this level, we rotate, and no child wears any identifier (e.g., armband) during the match nor are they listed in the match cards as captain.

Bad intent - In most instances, the kids do not have bad intent. (The situation I mentioned in the other thread, I think the kid showed bullying tendencies, and his verbal threats and actions indicated bad intent.) I would say that some of the most (not all) dangerous play comes from younger siblings. They see, and may play informally against, older brother/sister. Some of what is legal for the older kids can be dangerous and is not allowed at U7 (e.g., slide tackling). Some is legal, like shoulder-to-shoulder, but these kids have not been instructed how to do it. And some is illegal, like the shirt pulling, etc. Then, from all kids, you get the problems of kicking another player when all are bunched together or not being able to pull up when the keeper has the ball. With the one exception, I've not seen malicious intent.

Young officials: As mentioned by others, the younger refs need more instruction and supervision. Unfortunately--and I understand this to be the case in many locations--soccer is growing so fast that it is hard enough to find refs to cover all games, and many young officials work without a net, so to speak. Even when an experienced official is around to guide them, the "experienced" official may not be much older or experienced than the newbie. We had a match with a 16-year-old working with a 14-year-old, and neither was willing to blow the whistle. One of my players fell in love with slide tackling, and I couldn't get them to (a) talk to him; (b) let me sub him out; or (c) send him out. Had to wait until the quarter.

So you don't think all of our matches and officials are horrible, we've had some CRs do an excellent job of controlling the match, instructing the players, etc. Our club just has so many teams and games. We have slightly over 100 U7 boys alone, divided into 10 teams, up from about 80 in 8 teams last fall.

[nsa]

Originally posted by Blitzz Boy
they are just running too fast to stop & mow down an opponent? "Bad intent" is almost never seen with the U6 and U8 program. Some at U10. While the laws of momentum apply to us all from birth, they don't actually teach you about them until high school. ;)

As Gary V said, these are not teams in the normal sense. The typical U-little player is self-interested and self-motivated. If they're not having fun, they won't be back next season.

Kids at these ages may have widely different growth rates. It is not unusual for a 45 lb. kid to be faced by an 80 or 90 lb. kid (particularly if you skew the age groups so the bracket covers three years, not just two).

As I said before, careless, reckless, and with maximal force is simply the definition of how these kids play. The referee must settle the mayhem and try to keep the most kids on their feet as possible.

Back at U-8 my daughter played 9v9. She had a teammate, nicknamed Tank, whose best play was to fall down and roll over. While he took down two of his teammates with him, he'd usually get four of the opponent. :)

[soccertim]

Originally posted by Gary V
U-littles take turns being captain. As soon as the coin toss is over, they forget who the captain is.


Not exactly true. Captains are first in line when they shake hands.

[Gary V]

Originally posted by soccertim
Not exactly true. Captains are first in line when they shake hands. In my area, that's the goalkeeper's job.

[Blitzz Boy]

Very interesting.

This is a little off topic; but does taking kids (little, big or whatever) to pro games have any effect?

Do kids who watch WUSA/USL/MLS games see the Grownups keeping some space between players and not playing "herdball" and do the kids grasp the concept & try to emluate with the Pros are doing?

[nsa]

Originally posted by Blitzz Boy
Do kids who watch WUSA/USL/MLS games see the Grownups keeping some space between players and not playing "herdball" and do the kids grasp the concept & try to emluate with the Pros are doing? Maybe more of a question for the coaching forum, but my take on it is that playing the game is the teacher - just as you don't learn how to referee without stepping between the lines with a whistle. That doesn't mean that a coach can't say, "Spread out like you saw Twellman and Ralston do last night." or "You saw the trouble LeBlanc had in goal when her defender didn't listen to her."

OTOH, I've seen the "big kids" (aka OTH amateur players) think that they can get in the face of a referee on Sunday morning 'cause they saw a pro get away with it on Saturday night. (Short conversation: "Guys, I was at that game, too. I'm probably as hungover as you, too. Cut the b***s*** now!) :)