AR's: Afraid to make a call?

[Rufusabc]

I wouldn't mind hearing from some of the more experienced group who populate the board. I ran into a situation yesterday while coaching that I have noticed while centering as well. It was an experienced crew at a tournament. In the AR's quadrant with the CR running the proper Diagonal, a hard foul was committed against my player. From my vantage point, the CR could very well have been screened on the play. My player (U14G), who had nail marks on her arm from the grab and throw down, questioned the AR about the non-call. He reacted badly to her questioning, and our bench was right at the foul location. I asked him why no call, and he said it was the CR's call. he reacted badly to my line of questioning as well. When I run a line, I will make a call, no questions asked. But I have seen a pretty stedy reluctance on the part of AR's to get involved in that process. Is it a case of nerves or a reluctance to superceded the CR? What gives? I'm using my coaching experience as an example, but I like my AR's to act as if they were centering in their quandrant. How about you? What do you like out of your AR's?

R

[Statesman]

You can't make a generalization about all ARs based on some bad experiences in your own games. Every AR is different in skill and knowledge; some are good and some are bad.

I think a better question is what right you think you have as a coach to approach ARs about calls during the game. He probably had a bad attitude because he had to deal with you questioning his calls while trying to do his job.

[gosellit]

You can't make a generalization about all ARs based on some bad experiences in your own games. Every AR is different in skill and knowledge; some are good and some are bad.

I think a better question is what right you think you have as a coach to approach ARs about calls during the game. He probably had a bad attitude because he had to deal with you questioning his calls while trying to do his job.

Absolutley, and in addition...we do not know what the pre-game instructions were.

[blech]

Absolutley, and in addition...we do not know what the pre-game instructions were.

this is the key. who knows what he was told to do or not do and how the "quadrants" were defined?

to move past that and respond to your question, there are too many variables to know what happened in your specific experience. you can get a wide array of referees at a tournament. was the AR significantly junior to the CR? was the AR just inexperienced and/or moved up to an age group that is new to him? i've seen instances where all of these factors contribute to a reluctance to raise the flag. the more the AR has been a CR, the more likely he'll be to raise the flag for fouls.

it's also possible the AR just didn't see it. even though the play may have been closer, if the focus was on the offside line for some reason, it's possible he just missed it. the reality is the AR can't follow the ball the same way the CR might because he has other responsibilities, which I've heard reiterated to be more important during the instructions.

your assumption was that the CR didn't see it. perhaps. but maybe the CR and AR made eye contact, and the CR indicated no foul. the AR might completely disagree, and might even believe that the CR must not have seen it if he's signaling no foul, but once he's been given that signal, he's supposed to support the CR. when i've been an AR and seen calls that i personally would have or wouldn't have made, it's when i least enjoy conversations with players or coaches.

there's any number of reasons why he didn't call it.

[refmike]

As a follow-up question, why did the CR allow his AR to be questioned by player and coach? He should have been in the middle of that confrontation. This makes me question his pre-game even more. If we don't protect our AR's we soon won't have any.

[Ref Flunkie]

As a follow-up question, why did the CR allow his AR to be questioned by player and coach? He should have been in the middle of that confrontation. This makes me question his pre-game even more. If we don't protect our AR's we soon won't have any.

I doubt the questioning was obvious. I'm not focused on my AR every second, so there are likely times where the coach is chatting with the AR without my knowledge. It is the ARs job to let the CR know if he is having problems. Obviously if the coach/player were raising their voices to the AR, then hopefully the CR would pick up on it.

As for the question, I am curious as to exactly where the "foul" was in relation to the CR and AR. The AR's "quadrant" is very subjective, and I know when I am ARing, I often times do not see things on the ball, as I am watching my offside line. This is especially true if I know the CR is right there to make the call.

[nylaw5]

I think a better question is what right you think you have as a coach to approach ARs about calls during the game. He probably had a bad attitude because he had to deal with you questioning his calls while trying to do his job.

Wow.

To all coaches and players reading this board, please know that not ALL referees are so defensive about their job when they are on a match. If you have a legitimate question about a call and can politely ask the question I think a good chunk of referees will try and give you a decent answer. Especially in a GU14 game, I don't think we would all be so combative.

[Statesman]

Wow.

To all coaches and players reading this board, please know that not ALL referees are so defensive about their job when they are on a match. If you have a legitimate question about a call and can politely ask the question I think a good chunk of referees will try and give you a decent answer. Especially in a GU14 game, I don't think we would all be so combative.What do you mean, "Wow?" Re-read the original post, it doesn't come across like a sincere coach asking politely during a stoppage or after the game about a call. It sounds like the player bitched at the referee and the coach followed. The AR shrugged them off because they were questioning him while the game is still going on.

I don't think any of the referees here, myself included, mind anybody asking a legitimate question about a call politely at the appropriate time. That just didn't sound like the case here to me, so I'd thank you for not attacking me...

[IASocFan]

This incident reminds me of a high school match I was ARing. I was in front of a very vocal coach - to his players mostly, but also in a marginal way to the refs. His team was always pushing the 2LD, so I had to concentrate on offsides - of which there were numerous close calls both ways. Anyway, while his team is controlling the ball and the forwards are making runs towards and past the 2LD, his midfielder and a defender have contact in my quadrant. I saw only what I thought was subsequent contact and did not see the initial contact as I was concentrating on his offside forward. The CR didn't call anything. The Coach yells toward the CR, "NO FOUL?" Getting no response, he looked at me and says, "can't you call that?" Anyway, I tried to concentrate on the ball in my quadrant a little closer. And sure enough, I'm now out of position, and they crossed a ball to his wing right in front of where I should have been. Unfortunately, I was still about 5-10 yards upfield. From my angle, it looked like he was offside. Up went my flag. Now the coach is really unhappy. Sorry coach, I was looking for fouls in my quadrant! Coach earned a yellow card, but I let him get away with it, because I had made a bad call, and let him talk me into being in the wrong position. :o

I was also confused by the phrase: the proper diagonal. What is an improper diagonal?

To answer the original question, my instruction to ARs is that their primary responsibility 2LD and offside calls, if you see fouls flag them. Both of us signalling is not a problem. If we point opposite ways, we'll talk. Be damned sure it's worthy if you're calling a defensive foul in the penalty area. That's how I usually work as an AR (and instructions given to me are usually similar). I usually make at least one foul call as AR (depending on the teams, the games, and the CR).

[nylaw5]

What do you mean, "Wow?" Re-read the original post, it doesn't come across like a sincere coach asking politely during a stoppage or after the game about a call. It sounds like the player bitched at the referee and the coach followed. The AR shrugged them off because they were questioning him while the game is still going on.

I don't think any of the referees here, myself included, mind anybody asking a legitimate question about a call politely at the appropriate time. That just didn't sound like the case here to me, so I'd thank you for not attacking me...

Not gonna get into a big disscussion about this cause it defeats the purpose, sorry if you took offense to my comment. I just thought that the tone in which you responded to the initial question was doing more harm then good. I think that coaches and players putting questions should be encouraged as it leads to understanding of the laws, techniques of officiating, and just overall improvement in communication.

Regarding the actual question - I instruct my ARs to first look to me before calling a foul. If I am staring right at it and have a good angle then I ask them to please keep the flag down. If I am screened, far away, or have that "WTF?" look on my face.....I need help. But this is all done in the pregame and
instructions change from referee to referee.

[Caesar]

What do you mean, "Wow?" Re-read the original post, it doesn't come across like a sincere coach asking politely during a stoppage or after the game about a call. It sounds like the player bitched at the referee and the coach followed. The AR shrugged them off because they were questioning him while the game is still going on.

I don't think any of the referees here, myself included, mind anybody asking a legitimate question about a call politely at the appropriate time. That just didn't sound like the case here to me, so I'd thank you for not attacking me...
Maybe it wasn't intended, but when I read your original post it did seem overly testy and defensive, without really attempting to be helpful to a guy politely asking a legitimate question about the delegation of authority to ARs.

Other people managed to address his post (including the problems with it) in a helpful manner, without the same acerbity.

[Gary V]

Wow, schmow. I tend to agree with Statesman here. The original post says the AR "reacted badly" to the question by the player, and then again "reacted badly" to the question by the coach. Just what is good and bad here?

"STFU" is a bad reaction. No response or a "his call" response are correct when players and coaches are trying to dissent - and that's exactly what this is. The player didn't like the ref's non-call, and attempts to go around that by appealing to the AR, and the coach does likewise.

Yes, I'll answer calm and rational questions, if I have time to do it. I won't go second-guessing one of my crew.

[Wahoo]

I wouldn't mind hearing from some of the more experienced group who populate the board. I ran into a situation yesterday while coaching that I have noticed while centering as well. It was an experienced crew at a tournament. In the AR's quadrant with the CR running the proper Diagonal, a hard foul was committed against my player. From my vantage point, the CR could very well have been screened on the play. My player (U14G), who had nail marks on her arm from the grab and throw down, questioned the AR about the non-call. He reacted badly to her questioning, and our bench was right at the foul location. I asked him why no call, and he said it was the CR's call. he reacted badly to my line of questioning as well. When I run a line, I will make a call, no questions asked. But I have seen a pretty stedy reluctance on the part of AR's to get involved in that process. Is it a case of nerves or a reluctance to superceded the CR? What gives? I'm using my coaching experience as an example, but I like my AR's to act as if they were centering in their quandrant. How about you? What do you like out of your AR's?

R
Couple of points... some you may like some you may not.

1. Some ARs are hesitant to shake the flag saying they saw a foul. Its a shame but it's true. Sometimes it's because the CR says he prefers to call fouls unless it's obvious he missed something... sometimse it's nerves of an inexperienced AR.
However in this case you state that it was an experienced crew, so I'm assuming it's NOT hesitancy on the ARs part but rather that the officiating crew either didn't see it or didn't believe it to be a foul.

2. Remember that only the CR can call a foul. An AR can signal he/she saw something, but only the CR can act on it.

3. You said the AR reacted badly to the players question of why no call. What do you mean by reacted badly? Also (and at least as important)... how was the question phrased?

4. You asked the AR "Why the no call?" and he answered you: "It was the CR's call". At that point it was done. If you continued the line of questioning, then you were badgering him and I can see him being a little surly. You may not have liked the answer, but your question was answered. It's done... give it up. After the question was answered any continued questioning during the game is really just trying to influence future decisions.

A question for you: If you had been that AR, and the player questioned you about a non-call, and then the coach asked you about it and you told him it was the CR's call... and then continued to ask you about it... how would you have reacted? Keep in mind that the game is still going on and you have to keep on the lookout for current events and dealing with the past doesn't help.

Personally, I tell my ARs that if they see a foul, signal me. If I saw it differently, then I'll wave him off, but otherwise I will trust them. I'm not trying to say that it should or should not have been called a foul. That's really immaterial for this question. The point is, you don't know the instructions given to the ARs by the CR, and you don't know what each of them saw.

[Statesman]

Maybe it wasn't intended, but when I read your original post it did seem overly testy and defensive, without really attempting to be helpful to a guy politely asking a legitimate question about the delegation of authority to ARs.

Other people managed to address his post (including the problems with it) in a helpful manner, without the same acerbity.Ya'll need a thicker skin. I don't consider his post polite and legitimate, I see it as a coach that got burned after both he and his players badgered the AR looking for an outlet for justification. The story is never as innocent as the instigator claims.

[macheath]

How old was the AR in question? An adult? If so, a little more slack can be given, but I tend to agree with those who have said the allegedly-offended against team had two bites (player asked the AR, coach asked the AR), and it wasn't going anyplace. AR says its the Center's call, that's it. In any case, the foul had taken place, play had apparently continued, so the AR certainly isn't going to call THAT particular foul. A question of "can't you call that" if play is continuing is rhetorical, and just a complaint about the lack of a call.

Occasionally, we miss calls, and if the "questioning" of the AR was in fact expressing frustration with a missed call, then the AR might take one or two "questions." (or complaints thinly disguised as questions...) But then you're done talking, as a coach. If it was a really, really serious missed call that affected the outcome of the game or resulted in an injury, file a complaint. If it didn't rise to that level (did it? was it worth a formal complaint?), then the AR got talked to--twice--so its over with. Again, the younger and less experienced the AR, the less tolerance there should be for any questioning or badgering.

So--how old was the AR in question? Was the foul serious enough to affect the outcome of the game, and/or cause a serious injury--was it worth filing a complaint?

[ref47]

i ask the ar's to look at me, if possible, before making any calls. unless they see that i am screened or way out of position, fouls should be my call. yes, i also tell them to make calls, but they need to watch the first 4-5 calls i make to see what level i am starting at. therefore, they are making calls on play i could not witness. that should not be more that 2-3 per game. and the pa is not off limit.

and, when running ar, i often find myself looking for the offside position (first responsibility) and missing fouls or even ball into touch because of it.

[tmaker]

Ya'll need a thicker skin. I don't consider his post polite and legitimate, I see it as a coach that got burned after both he and his players badgered the AR looking for an outlet for justification. The story is never as innocent as the instigator claims.
I'd say that's a pretty absurd assumption, and unprovable. "Badgering" is definitely a connotation that may not even have any place here. If anyone needed thicker skin here, perhaps it would be you, as you seem to have taken a simple comment as a slur against the entire refereeing profession.

I've as little patience with an obnoxious coach as any referee, but I hardly found anything inflammatory in what he asked. The foul was right in front of his bench. Only an idiot wouldn't expect a coach to say anything about a hard foul there; even a ticky-tack foul there would be a source of comment.

Back to the original post, Wahoo pretty much spoke for me. And of course macheath's point about the age of the AR is VERY important. In truth, there isn't enough fact given about the situation in order to tell the poster anything fairly.

[tmaker]

i ask the ar's to look at me, if possible, before making any calls. unless they see that i am screened or way out of position, fouls should be my call. yes, i also tell them to make calls, but they need to watch the first 4-5 calls i make to see what level i am starting at. therefore, they are making calls on play i could not witness. that should not be more that 2-3 per game. and the pa is not off limit.
I'd truly hate to work for you. I'd tell you to take your 2-3 calls per game and call them yourself. Way to make an AR feel part of the team.

Just Sunday I had a referee tell me that he wanted me to "be invisible." How about I just go home, where I will definitely be out of sight and out of mind?

Christ, does anyone even read Law 6 these days? Last I checked, every AR I've worked with had a USSF badge. I'm sure they can actually perform their duties if given the chance. :rolleyes:

[Statesman]

I'd tell you to take your 2-3 calls per game and call them yourself. Way to make an AR feel part of the team.

Christ, does anyone even read Law 6 these days? Last I checked, every AR I've worked with had a USSF badge. I'm sure they can actually perform their duties if given the chance. :rolleyes:How do you alledge a referee team establish the tone of the game if the the CR calls fouls one way and the AR calls them the other in the first 10 minutes? Since the AR is there to assist he'll need time to assess the tone set by the CR and follow accordingly.

Further, the primary responsibility of the AR is to call offside; fouls are secondary. Most good CRs will be in position to call fouls in the ARs quandrant a good portion of the time. To work as a team, the CR will use eye contact and a subtle gesture to signal to the AR he sees a foul he'd like to call, so the AR can then flag alongside the whistle together. Likewise for the AR to signal the referee for confirmation subtlely before sticking the flag up. Only then when it is clear the referee is screened or not in position while players are contesting for the ball will the AR need to make a foul decision independently. That is the essence of communication in the referee team and the role of the AR as an assistant.

[Rufusabc]

For clarification...my point was not about the argument...I was wrong in the argument and immediately apologized to the AR...but his point that it wasn't his call that's what got me. It happened in front of him with the CR in his proper position further away. It was a foul in my eyes (if I had been the AR). My question wasn't about the call or non-call but the reluctance of AR's to raise a flag. He was an older more experienced official, as this tournament drew some of the more accomplished refs in the area.

I like how everyone reads tone into comments. However, here is my tone on this one. What should an experienced CR tell his AR's in the pre-game? What do you do in your pre-game? That's what I was seeking. Sorry I didn't explain myself.

As a CR, I tell my guys in the pre-game to raise the flag if they see a foul. And I will usually back them up. What do you guys do?

R