Referee abuse at tournaments

[HiFi]

Wondering how the referees here would handle this incident that occured at a Labor Day pre-season tournament this past weekend:

Semi-Final of Boys U14. A rematch of state cup final held 3 months earlier. Team that lost state cup plays very chippy style. Referee is calling a tight game - some contact that probably should be allowed is being called fouls, but it is the same way for both teams.

In the second half, a player is red carded, not for a foul he was called for, but for what he said to the referee after the call (he used the "N" word toward the referee who was Caucasian). Before play re-starts, another player from this team pushes the player that was involved in the play that resulted in the foul, then pushes yet another player that was not involved in the play. When the referee blows the whistle to end the game, the players are walking off and the player that was doing the earlier pushing walks by the referee, puts two hands on his chest, and pushes him.

No red card was given, even though I understand one can be given even after the game has ended.

It should also be noted that the player who pushed the referee is an ODP Regional/National Pool player.

I have asked a similar question of the coaches in the coaches forum about how they might handle this situation.

[Claymore]

A red card can be give in the instance of the player pushing the ref immediately following the game, and should have been given in this case. It doesn't matter one bit if the kid is a National pool player. At the very least, it should go in the game report, and a copy should be sent to the State Youth Admin. of that players' home state. There is absolutely no excuse for that type of behavior.

[Wahoos1]

He better be one tough hombre if he wishes to push on my 6-1 and 220#. But I look at him, w/o expression after being pushed back a few inches, pull the red card, hold it high while suggesting the coach get control of his player then get the player pass (unless the situation is continued to be charged) and leave the field.

Generally I find at least one time early in a game to yell "play on!!" in the voice my wife says I use when talking with my daughters boyfirend. She calls it the "death is soon" voice that ....projects.

More than once I have been sent to fields with teams that have a 'history." And more than once we have had to walk through a group of fans that have been less than excited about the result. We just form a wedge, and walk briskly through while talking about the weather.

[Wahoo]

Wondering how the referees here would handle this incident that occured at a Labor Day pre-season tournament this past weekend:

Semi-Final of Boys U14. A rematch of state cup final held 3 months earlier. Team that lost state cup plays very chippy style. Referee is calling a tight game - some contact that probably should be allowed is being called fouls, but it is the same way for both teams.

In the second half, a player is red carded, not for a foul he was called for, but for what he said to the referee after the call (he used the "N" word toward the referee who was Caucasian). Before play re-starts, another player from this team pushes the player that was involved in the play that resulted in the foul, then pushes yet another player that was not involved in the play. When the referee blows the whistle to end the game, the players are walking off and the player that was doing the earlier pushing walks by the referee, puts two hands on his chest, and pushes him.

No red card was given, even though I understand one can be given even after the game has ended.

It should also be noted that the player who pushed the referee is an ODP Regional/National Pool player.

I have asked a similar question of the coaches in the coaches forum about how they might handle this situation.

First of all, if the ref was calling a close game, that's his choice. Rather than saying he's calling contact that should be allowed, maybe say he called contact that "could" be allowed. As long as he's calling it the same both ways, he doesn't have to allow more contact if he wants to call it close. The Laws of the Game don't stress severity of any of the fouls.

My opinion, I don't know why the player in question wasn't sent off after the pushes following the previous sending off. After pushing the ref, he should have been shown a red.
Match report should show all this and I personally think a meaningful suspension should be in order for said player.

The only reason I would care about this kid being an ODP Regional/National Pool player is so that the proper authorities can be presented about his actions. They belong no where in the game -- and neither do players who act that way.

The kid needs to clean up his act.

[Ref Flunkie]

I went to a clinic this weekend and the instructor told us that as soon as you blow your whistle for full time, the referee crew should sprint to a secure area (either the opposite touch line if both teams are on the same side, or the goal line if teams are on both sides). This is done to prevent any misconducts after the game has ended, such as this. Just an FYI that pertains to this situation. The player interaction can be watched from afar.


As for the incident, they should have given a red card obviously and it should have been written up on the match report. As others have said, this needs to be done in order to punish these kinds of players so they do not continue this attitude in the future.

[BC_Ref]

I went to a clinic this weekend and the instructor told us that as soon as you blow your whistle for full time, the referee crew should sprint to a secure area (either the opposite touch line if both teams are on the same side, or the goal line if teams are on both sides). This is done to prevent any misconducts after the game has ended, such as this. Just an FYI that pertains to this situation. The player interaction can be watched from afar.


I have problems with this view and it isn't possible in all leagues since most locally expect you to police the handshake line - within 10/15 yards or so. I also have a problem with "sprinting" anywhere at the end of the game unless I am actively being chased by a mob. Hasn't happened yet and hopefully never will.

[Ref Flunkie]

I have problems with this view and it isn't possible in all leagues since most locally expect you to police the handshake line - within 10/15 yards or so. I also have a problem with "sprinting" anywhere at the end of the game unless I am actively being chased by a mob. Hasn't happened yet and hopefully never will.

This came from a national instructor, so just passing on the info. We asked what happens if the teams start to fight, he said "You can take notes just as easy from the end line, if they want to fight, let the teams deal with it". I tend to agree with him, there is no reason to hang around and invite misconducts.

And your ARs should ALWAYS be sprinting to the CR after the half and full time. Once they meet, I'm sure you can slow down to a back peddle down to the end line.

[Bill Archer]

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "sprint". I expect more of a "brisk jog". A fine distinction perhaps. The referees dashing about immediately after a match seems to me to indicate that we expect trouble.

As for the suggestion that we retreat to the far touchline to negate the possibility of a confrontation, if my uniform isn't enough to keep participants from whacking me during the post-match proceedings then running away isn't likely to help either.

We all end up, sooner or later, in tight spots. It goes with the territory. I'm as big a wimp as anyone, believe me, but until the pitch is cleared it's still MY pitch. Like in any other situation, you certainly stand in a place where all the participants are in front of you, in order to observe what goes on, but that's all.

And if some U14 kid wants to come and lay hands on me, fine. I'll deal with it, and if (as is more likely) some coach wants to vent his spleen I'll deal with that too. Calm professionalism and the fact that I'm holding their passes gives me the upper hand. If they want to go home early, it's their call.

Certainly there are times when the general mood towards the referees seems to vitiate the likelyhood of the teams, parents and coaches joyfully hoisting us on their shoulders and carrying us off the field to wild applause, and clearing out of there with all due dispatch is the better part of valor, but neither am I going to go across the field and stand there like an idiot until everyone has left.

[Ref Flunkie]

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "sprint". I expect more of a "brisk jog". A fine distinction perhaps. The referees dashing about immediately after a match seems to me to indicate that we expect trouble.

As for the suggestion that we retreat to the far touchline to negate the possibility of a confrontation, if my uniform isn't enough to keep participants from whacking me during the post-match proceedings then running away isn't likely to help either.
[...]



Yes ok, "brisk jog" is good.

I guess my only question is what reason do you have to be mulling around with the players after a game is complete? Realistically, your only duties are to meet with your team, fill out the paperwork, and have the coaches sign if necessary, which takes a bit of time. Any other post-match discussion can be done away from the field area. You can observe player/coach interactions from 30-50 yards away, and take notes if necessary, just as easily as if you were 10 yards away. Your equpiment should probably not be anywhere near the player's area (I try not to at least), so it isn't like you are going to the other side of the field and waiting until everyone leaves before moving back to your equipment. Perhaps this is just a suggestion for higher level/adult games where tempers run high, but again, why invite misconduct when you could easily avoid it by leaving the area where the players are gathering after the match. It isn't like your uniform prevents misconduct during the match, why would it after the match. A player/coach/parent is less likely to lash out at you verbally/physically if you are 40 yards away from him vs. 4 yards from him. I'm not saying you should look like you are fleeing for your life after every match, but I don't see a problem being prepared for the worst either. Look at what happened after the Houston:Chivas match last week. It isn't like the referee's uniform prevented the misconduct there.

[Wahoo]

I'm sorry, but i think the idea of sprinting or even doing a brisk jog off the field is unnecessary and to be honest I think it sends the wrong signal.

After the game is over, I agree the ref need not hang out and socialize, but leaving "briskly" to me sends the message that "Hey I've got to get out of here". I walk off toward my bag with the other officials.

Lets also remember who is at fault here if a confrontation does occur. It's typically not the officials, but the player/coach/parent who confronts the official. While getting out of the way may avoid some of these, you can't avoid them all and to me at least, I think it's best to remain calm and in control.

But hey, I can see where it comes from.

[TheRefIsBlind]

i agree that the ``advice'' is ridiculous. just reinforces the old saying, ``those who can do, those who can't teach.'' sprinting, jogging or even taking a brisk walk to a ``secure'' area after a game is absurd. i've reffed for nearly 15 years and have had my share of post-game exchanges. some have been angry and highly unpleasant. but any good ref knows the temperature of a game. he or she should be able to anticipate post game feelings and know how to deal with those feelings. after a game ends, i walk to my stuff, pack up or prepare for the next game. if someone confronts me i stand my ground, stay calm and say very little. ``running'' only intensifies the misperceptions that caused problem to begin with and seriously erodes the authority of the ref. honestly, i'm shocked that a national instructor would endorse such a misguided practice.

[Bill Archer]

i agree that the ``advice'' is ridiculous. just reinforces the old saying, ``those who can do, those who can't teach.'' sprinting, jogging or even taking a brisk walk to a ``secure'' area after a game is absurd. i've reffed for nearly 15 years and have had my share of post-game exchanges. some have been angry and highly unpleasant. but any good ref knows the temperature of a game. he or she should be able to anticipate post game feelings and know how to deal with those feelings. after a game ends, i walk to my stuff, pack up or prepare for the next game. if someone confronts me i stand my ground, stay calm and say very little. ``running'' only intensifies the misperceptions that caused problem to begin with and seriously erodes the authority of the ref. honestly, i'm shocked that a national instructor would endorse such a misguided practice.

Well put.

To clarify, my "brisk jog" comment referred to the AR's rejoining me after the whistle, in the center circle. They do it at the beginning, when they each break to the nets for a final inspection, and rejoining me in the same manner seems appropriate and professional. As I stated, I'm not going anywhere myself, be it jogging, trotting or moseying.

And frankly, running off to some "secure" location to prevent untoward confrontations also prevents the much more normal, and appropriate, post-game handshakes from coaches and players. It's not that I stand there waiting for accolades, the "good game" pat on the back. I know how I did better than anyone else.

Rather, I think it's important - to me anyway - to give the participants the opportunity to shake my hand, thank me (even if it's through clenched teeth), ask the occasional respectful question and go on their way. It's part of the game as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not denying us the opportunity because on some rare occasions some idiot wants to misbehave.

[TOTC]

I think lacrosse has gotten it right the last couple of years -- carding mental parentals. (http://alexandrialacrosse.com/honor.html)

[HiFi]

First of all, if the ref was calling a close game, that's his choice. Rather than saying he's calling contact that should be allowed, maybe say he called contact that "could" be allowed. As long as he's calling it the same both ways, he doesn't have to allow more contact if he wants to call it close. The Laws of the Game don't stress severity of any of the fouls.

My opinion, I don't know why the player in question wasn't sent off after the pushes following the previous sending off. After pushing the ref, he should have been shown a red.
Match report should show all this and I personally think a meaningful suspension should be in order for said player.

The only reason I would care about this kid being an ODP Regional/National Pool player is so that the proper authorities can be presented about his actions. They belong no where in the game -- and neither do players who act that way.

The kid needs to clean up his act.

That is what I meant: There can be no argument if the calls are consistent. But sometimes it's ok for one player to fall down while two of them are going for a ball within the rules.

But for me, it doesn't change how the kid acted. I was just trying to get some opinions from referees. By the way, passcards weren't used in this tournament. It was a pre-season tournament, so most teams don't have them yet......

[HiFi]

[QUOTE=Wahoo]
The only reason I would care about this kid being an ODP Regional/National Pool player is so that the proper authorities can be presented about his actions. They belong no where in the game -- and neither do players who act that way.[QUOTE]

That's the intersting point. What ramifications do his actions toward the referee have on his ODP status?

I already assume his team will have to play a significant number of league games without him.

[Wahoo]

The only reason I would care about this kid being an ODP Regional/National Pool player is so that the proper authorities can be presented about his actions. They belong no where in the game -- and neither do players who act that way.

That's the intersting point. What ramifications do his actions toward the referee have on his ODP status?

I already assume his team will have to play a significant number of league games without him.

I wouldn't expect it to affect his ODP status directly.
What I was going for there was that if the ODP people hear about this --- maybe they can have a talk with the kid. Having someone from that level tell him that his actions are unacceptable will probably carry a lot more weight than the local soccer authorities.

[HiFi]

I wouldn't expect it to affect his ODP status directly.
What I was going for there was that if the ODP people hear about this --- maybe they can have a talk with the kid. Having someone from that level tell him that his actions are unacceptable will probably carry a lot more weight than the local soccer authorities.

Could be.........

He certainly wasn't getting any help from his coach or parents.

[bluedevils]

i agree that the ``advice'' is ridiculous. just reinforces the old saying, ``those who can do, those who can't teach.'' sprinting, jogging or even taking a brisk walk to a ``secure'' area after a game is absurd. i've reffed for nearly 15 years and have had my share of post-game exchanges. some have been angry and highly unpleasant. but any good ref knows the temperature of a game. he or she should be able to anticipate post game feelings and know how to deal with those feelings. after a game ends, i walk to my stuff, pack up or prepare for the next game. if someone confronts me i stand my ground, stay calm and say very little. ``running'' only intensifies the misperceptions that caused problem to begin with and seriously erodes the authority of the ref. honestly, i'm shocked that a national instructor would endorse such a misguided practice.

Honestly, I'm shocked that you feel the practice is misguided. On what are you basing YOUR views? Not everything you hear from instructors is gold, but something from a national instructor should be heard and absorbed rather than dismissed out of hand.

1. Don't leave your bag at the halfway line in between the teams. Why put yourself in the position of being so close to the teams after the match? It just makes it easier for them to bother you and that is not good for anyone. Don't invite confrontation by staying here.

2. If we can avoid post-match ugliness by taking up certain positions on or around the field, as referees we should do so. What is so absurd about the concept of a 'secure area'? It is pretty standard for the ARs to run (some walk, but I feel a brisk jog is more professional) and meet the ref after the final whistle. There is no need to go back to the halfway line between the benches, or stand unnecessarily close to the traditional handshake zone. Stand back a good distance. If you want to observe what is going on, fine. But it isn't totally necessary, in spite of many refs doing so simply because it is 'customary.'

I guess I wonder what types of matches you folks have officiated. Have you never felt physically threatened by an angry team and/or spectators? You should try officiating some ethnic adult men's leagues, for example. This is not quite the U12 stuff here. Having a couple games like that under your belt, you might change your tune about the absurdity of all this.

It is such a popular thing to bash teachers or instructors as clueless morons who have never 'walked the walk.' Many national instructors and national assessors in this country possess great experience as referees, including at the highest levels. They didn't all get to where they are by reading books and never blowing a whistle.

[Bill Archer]

Whoa nellie! Where on Earth did all THAT come from?

First of all, I'd like to see the poster define "national instructor". Does he mean by this a guy with a USSF Instructor's Badge? Or is he actually referring to someone who is part of the national training staff? Huge difference. Perhaps if he was to give us the guy's name we could clarify this.

Secondly, where do you suggest we should stow our bags? The poster seems to be saying that it should be across the field, which puts it smack in the middle of the spectators. Now maybe YOU would prefer dealing with overwrought parents rather than players and coaches. I myself would much rather take my chances with players and coaches, over whom I have some actual control through official channels.

Thirdly, I question the poster's premise that nobody had a player's pass because they hadn't been issued yet. I question the wisdom - not to mention the legality - of working a tournament where players aren't carded.

Finally, you yourself go into a tirade about people who think USSF instructors as "clueless morons" who ahve never walked the walk". That's utter nonsense. I saw no one claiming that they just learned stuff from books, had no practical experience, and have never blown a whistle. Where you got all that is a mystery.

I know of no one with a USSF instructor's badge who hasn't worked soccer games, and neither does anyone else.

And trust me, friend, I've worked my share of so-called "adult" leagues, including what you euphemistically refer to as "ethnic" leagues. What that has to do with hiding and running from U14 players and coaches at a youth tournament, I can't imagine.

[bluedevils]

Whoa nellie! Where on Earth did all THAT come from?

Okay, Bill. Let's go point by point and you can see where I'm coming from.

First of all, I'd like to see the poster define "national instructor". So would I. I assumed that 'national instructor' meant a USSF certified instructor who has earned the level of 'National Instructor.' This could be a bogus assumption. Yes, big difference between someone certified by USSF at the level of Instructor or Associate Instructor vs. National Instructor.

...where do you suggest we should stow our bags?
You can stow your bags anywhere you want. There is no requirement to stow them near the benches or at either end of the halfway line. Pick a discreet spot. It might be in the corner, or behind a goal. Do I stow my bag at the halfway line? Yes, sometimes I do. It depends on many factors and I won't digress here.

Thirdly, I question the poster's premise that nobody had a player's pass...
My post didn't comment on this at all.

Finally, you yourself go into a tirade about people who think USSF instructors as "clueless morons" who ahve never walked the walk". That's utter nonsense. I saw no one claiming that they just learned stuff from books, had no practical experience, and have never blown a whistle. Where you got all that is a mystery. I know of no one with a USSF instructor's badge who hasn't worked soccer games, and neither does anyone else.

Where I got it was from the quote that I cited in my post, by TheRefIsBlind. He said, 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.' I don't know about you, but I am reading that statement loud and clear.

And trust me, friend, I've worked my share of so-called "adult" leagues, including what you euphemistically refer to as "ethnic" leagues. What that has to do with hiding and running from U14 players and coaches at a youth tournament, I can't imagine.
Your smart-ass tone is not appreciated or needed here, Bill. I apologize for making comments beyond the 'youth tournament' aspect of this thread. I thought it was reasonable to do so, but if everyone feels the same way you do, then I must have miscalculated. You are probably right - once I saw that my views were not in agreement with the majority view stated in this thread, I should have remained silent and moved on.

Lastly, I will repeat something I said last time, as I believe it has merit regardless of WHO is playing:

If we can avoid post-match ugliness by taking up certain positions on or around the field, as referees we should do so.

Am I going to sprint off the field to the ref tent after a feisty U12 girls match? No. Am I going to meet my ARs at a location that is away from the general location of players, coaches, and spectators before gathering my stuff and exiting the field area? Yes. You may not agree with my reasons why, but hopefully you at least understand them.