Interesting situation between coach and referee

[mrgifted]

12th minute, u12 boys tournament final. Attacker for A is about 3'2", while goalkeeper for B is about 5'6". GK bests attacker in getting to through pass at top of 18 and picks it up. Momentum of A causes him to pass by deeper into the area, out of GK field of vision.

GK motions for defender to go wide and prepares to roll the ball out. A loops back around and says something quietly to GK, who immediately turns to face A (some challenge to GK manhood, I suppose). Unbelievably, A jumps like a flea and punches GK in the side of face. He leaves me no choice, and is sent to McDonalds.

Of course, GK plays the FK long from his own area and 2 touches later B scores. After fishing the ball out of the net, entire team A (now playing with 10) runs to the sideline (staying just ON the pitch) to listen to coach's instructions, which I assume were about how to realign with 10 men. I allow this to go on for about 30 seconds, since at a young age they may need some instruction, and B is celebrating the goal anyway.

However, after 30 seconds, team A shows no signs of re-entering the field to kickoff. I whistle them out, they ignore me (obviously at coach's instruction). Wait. Whistle again. They don't even look. Walk to within 15 yards and whistle and command them to re-enter. No action at all. Parents begin to laugh at the mockery. I move to 10 yards and say "enter the field or we are suspended". No one moves - and 10 11-yr-olds don't even glance my way. About 1:15 has elapsed since the original instruction to play. I tell the coach he is booked if the team does not return immediately. He ignores me completely, and in true gamesmanship, begins to draw plays on his chalkboard with a wry smile. After about 15 seconds I say, "Coach, you are booked, and we are suspended."

I whistle the game suspended, collect my 2 15-yr-old ARs and start the long walk to the ref tent. All of a sudden I am surrounded by team B, the coaching staff (yes, STAFF, this is a major club), and 32 parents all screaming that the game is not over and I have no right to stop the match. Lawsuits are threatened to recoup travel money, and the ARs are threatened with veiled action if they don't get me to return and start the match.

I go to the ref tent and discover that the head assignor used to be a coach for Club A's older teams. He orders me to finish the game immediately, and does not want to hear any reports of coach A's caution or dismissal.

How would you have handled all of this?

Thanks...MG

[Statesman]

I would laugh right in his face, walk away from the game completely, and file a full report with your state association. If this is a true account of what happened then you have every right to walk away and let the state administrators deal with it.

[whipple]

One thing that occurs to me is that you may have been drawn in to a confrontation with the coach, prior to exhausting all of your options with the players. It was the players standing at the touch, and not taking the kick-off which was delaying the restart.

In spite of their tender age, I might have, after giving a warning to them as a group, started down the line of players and caution them, one-by-one, for delaying the restart, record, show the yellow card, then move to the next one, and so on until they either returned to play, or after the tenth player, started back at the beginning, this time with the second cautionable offense. Once the numbers of players dropped below 7, terminate the match, go home and start writing your game report.

I would not have interacted with the coach at all. He has no status. It is the players responsibility to restart the game. If their coach is an idiot, they should learn to ignore him.

As for the actions of your assignor, Statesman is right, just walk away and report him. As of last year, every state association has a State Assignment Coordiantor. This would be a good place to start.

Sherman

[blech]

Originally posted by mrgifted

How would you have handled all of this?



The question I want to hear answered is: How did you handle it?

What an incredible mess! I've never heard of a team refusing to take the kickoff. I've never heard of the team winning the championship being so upset. And then you throw in the head assignor's relationship with Team A. Wow.

I think the initial handling of it by dealing with the coach was fine. Especially at the u12 level, cautioning (and then showing red cards to) each of the players seems excessive. A valuable lesson for them to learn that they are responsible for their actions and cannot simply follow their coach's instructions blindly. But, still, it seems over the top to me.

And, so the assignor orders you back out. I agree that I would have - at least with the benefit of hindsight - refused. And what would that have done anyway? Team A has refused to play. You never mentioned the current score of the game. Am I correct in guessing that A is in the lead? Again, wow, what a mess.

[mrgifted]

A few more details then...score is now level at 1-1. This really happened just as it was stated. Also, the removal of attacker A for the red card was unusually difficult for a 12 yr old. I have had trouble getting college players to leave, but did not expect to have to threaten this kid with further action unless he left. One of the ARs told me after the suspension that his father had told him from the sidelines just to "stay out there until the ref MAKES you leave."

What did I do? I kept on walking to find the tournament director. The pickle here is that the person making the mockery of the game is a coach and not a player and therefore cannot be sent off with a card, but rather, has to be verbally dismissed. This made it appear to the opposite sideline and many spectators as though the coach was getting the best of me. And then, when I chose to walk, it made me and my crew look harsh and unable to deal with a u-12 boys game.

I am generally in favor of the rule that now says we should not show cards to coaches. In this case however, it took 2 valuable tools away from me that could have been used before I had to walk. Perhaps those that wrote this rule did not have the gamesmanship of the u12 club coach in mind...

[Dave Brull]

With team A still having their players ON THE FIELD, could you have simpy restarted the game, whether or not team A was ready? Also, Coach A may have believed that the rules were not applicable to him since your supervisor was a former member of Coach A's club.

I would have put the ball down in front of team B, blown the whistle and watch the fun ensue. They may not have scored as many goals as Australia did vs. Tonga, but it would have been fun to see that coach get burned

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by Dave Brull
...I would have put the ball down in front of team B, blown the whistle and watch the fun ensue. They may not have scored as many goals as Australia did vs. Tonga, but it would have been fun to see that coach get burned

The proper restart is still a kickoff for team A. So the game can't restart until they kick it. However, since team B wouldn't take the kick, using Law 18 to give team A an indirect would definitely make for a lively discussion.

The best action was described by Statesman and Whipple. Terminate the game, report to the tournament directors, and report the directors actions to the state officials.

[mrgifted]

Actually, I thought about IFK for the other team but since the ball had to be first put in play by A, IFK does not work without significant bending of the rules. The B kids were asking if they could kick it though. They saw a lot of open grass in front of them.

Can you imagine the melee that would have happened had I let them though?

Situations similar to this are not all that uncommon in the youth games anymore...coaches really try to (sadly) teach the younger ones how to bend the rules to harass the opponents or refs on many occasions.

I'll tell you what ended up happening: The match was terminated and I had to write 6 reports and go to a bunch of hearings on weeknights to review not only the behaviors of this coaching staff...but one meeting was held (by our weak administration) for the sole purpose of JUDGING MY HANDLING of the situation. If I had been younger or less experienced I would have hung up my badge right then...but our state needs 06's and I knew that these guys were the exception and not the rule.

[billf]

Originally posted by Dave Brull
With team A still having their players ON THE FIELD, could you have simpy restarted the game, whether or not team A was ready? Also, Coach A may have believed that the rules were not applicable to him since your supervisor was a former member of Coach A's club.

I would have put the ball down in front of team B, blown the whistle and watch the fun ensue. They may not have scored as many goals as Australia did vs. Tonga, but it would have been fun to see that coach get burned

The problem is that team A is supposed to kick off, so it won't work. A's players are clearly delaying the restart. Cautioning and then sending players off for a second caution is a sound solution within TLOTG, so I'll go with that one. This effectively calls the coach's bluff. If you do end up sending four more players off, there is nothing to be done to change that, so go to the tent and fill out the report.

If I walked away after what was done here and then had the assignor tell me to finish the game, I'd likely have some choice words for him, then I'd call the state ref office, which just happens to be on my cell phone's speed dial. I'd let them know to expect a report on the fax that evening. I don't have a problem with letting tournament people know that I have a problem with something.

[nsa]

Originally posted by Dave Brull
With team A still having their players ON THE FIELD, could you have simpy restarted the game, whether or not team A was ready?Nope. It was A's kickoff. You can't change the restart.

While it may have been the coach's instructions that kept the players on the touchline, it was the players themselves that were delaying the restart. As someone else mentioned, sadly, start with the forwards and caution them one at a time. After 10 cautions and 4 CT2 send-offs, leave.

[Dave Brull]

You are all, of course, correct. I forgot that a goal had been scored. Big oops. But you liked the Tonga thing, right?

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by whipple

In spite of their tender age, I might have, after giving a warning to them as a group, started down the line of players and caution them, one-by-one, for delaying the restart, record, show the yellow card, then move to the next one, and so on until they either returned to play, or after the tenth player, started back at the beginning, this time with the second cautionable offense. Once the numbers of players dropped below 7, terminate the match, go home and start writing your game report.

This just about takes the cake........You would be bringing the game into disrepute as much as the players would.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by Dave Brull
With team A still having their players ON THE FIELD, could you have simpy restarted the game, whether or not team A was ready? Also, Coach A may have believed that the rules were not applicable to him since your supervisor was a former member of Coach A's club.

I would have put the ball down in front of team B, blown the whistle and watch the fun ensue. They may not have scored as many goals as Australia did vs. Tonga, but it would have been fun to see that coach get burned How fair is that? You cant start the game and watch the opposing team run at the goal.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by mrgifted
A few more details then...score is now level at 1-1. This really happened just as it was stated. Also, the removal of attacker A for the red card was unusually difficult for a 12 yr old. I have had trouble getting college players to leave, but did not expect to have to threaten this kid with further action unless he left. One of the ARs told me after the suspension that his father had told him from the sidelines just to "stay out there until the ref MAKES you leave."

What did I do? I kept on walking to find the tournament director. The pickle here is that the person making the mockery of the game is a coach and not a player and therefore cannot be sent off with a card, but rather, has to be verbally dismissed. This made it appear to the opposite sideline and many spectators as though the coach was getting the best of me. And then, when I chose to walk, it made me and my crew look harsh and unable to deal with a u-12 boys game.

I am generally in favor of the rule that now says we should not show cards to coaches. In this case however, it took 2 valuable tools away from me that could have been used before I had to walk. Perhaps those that wrote this rule did not have the gamesmanship of the u12 club coach in mind... You did the right thing. Termintate the match...Period. DOnt go through in semantic BS. Dont play any games with the coach who is acting six years his players junior and dont allow the administration to treat you with anything but respect. If they dont I would do my best to make sure that other reffs in the area know EXACTLY what happened. I have seen leagues fail to get ANY reffs after misshandling a situtation like this.
PS my understanding is that leagues may stipulate the showing of cards to coaches. I also think that not showing cards takes a tool out of the hands of referees.

[Statesman]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
You did the right thing. Termintate the match...Period. DOnt go through in semantic BS. Dont play any games with the coach who is acting six years his players junior and dont allow the administration to treat you with anything but respect. If they dont I would do my best to make sure that other reffs in the area know EXACTLY what happened. I have seen leagues fail to get ANY reffs after misshandling a situtation like this.
PS my understanding is that leagues may stipulate the showing of cards to coaches. I also think that not showing cards takes a tool out of the hands of referees.

I don't know about Canada, but for USSF the showing of cards to a coach is not an option for the leagues to decide. You simply do not and any league that says otherwise is overstepping their bounds.

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If the coach and players are behaving this way I doubt any showing of cards or other action would have any impact in solving the problem. I think people might see this as merely a way for the referee to try and "save face." There is no hope left for that game to be played in accordance to the LOTG, so having a referee force his hand serves no purpose.

The only thing I really would do is say to the team captain "You guys have 10 seconds to get the game started again or the match is terminated" and leave it at that. Give them the 10 seconds then blow the whistle ending the game. Meet up with your ARs in the center, disregard any dissent or foul comments made by the players/parents/coaches, take note of who said what, and walk together off the field to your bags. I would then go straight to the tournament director and explain what took place. If he is the one that gives you further grief you tell him "Thanks for allowing me to participate but I can see my services are no longer required" and leave the tournament. Call the SYRA and explain what happened, fill out a report and send it in. If anybody has any questions they'll call for you, but otherwise your job is done. If the State Association gives you any kind of grief go straight to USSF and have them deal with it.

Remember, there is no point in really getting all worked up about the situation. You simply do your job within the guidelines of being a referee and leave it at that. The more you try and force your hand or protest, or even talk to the people, the more they will have to use against you. You did your job the best you could and when things go beyond your duties you simply walk away and move on to the next game.

Hope it all works out for you.

[mrgifted]

Agreed. It ended up working out all right, but WOW what a disappointing experience for a cup final.

[pkCrouse]

What was the coach's explanation at the hearing for his behavior? The whole situation seems so incredible (not that I doubt your word), particularly since it happended so early in the match. I'd be curious to hear what he had to say. Was it his intention to have the match abandoned, on the hopes that he could field 11 players if the game was replayed?

[mrgifted]

He is well known as a master gameplayer in these parts. His defense was that he had to "give these little guys some instruction" about how to play with 10 men since (digging at me) most refs don't lose control of a u12 match to the point that a red card is given.

He also tried to make the case that I was way too far from the bench to be heard when warning him. One of his own supporters accidentally contradicted this statement later by saying that I was standing next to the nearside AR.

His intention was to psychologically intimidate me into thinking that HE was in control of the field, when the game would be allowed to start, etc. In other words, he was trying to "flex his muscle" to show me who was boss there and to insure that he got later calls. I called his bluff (something rarely done around here because he is perceived as politically powerful) and he tried to have me exiled as a ref. Like I said, if I was a younger or newer ref, I might have let it get the best of me.

[Greyhnd00]

Originally posted by Statesman
I don't know about Canada, but for USSF the showing of cards to a coach is not an option for the leagues to decide. You simply do not and any league that says otherwise is overstepping their bounds.

---------
If the coach and players are behaving this way I doubt any showing of cards or other action would have any impact in solving the problem. I think people might see this as merely a way for the referee to try and "save face." There is no hope left for that game to be played in accordance to the LOTG, so having a referee force his hand serves no purpose.

The only thing I really would do is say to the team captain "You guys have 10 seconds to get the game started again or the match is terminated" and leave it at that. Give them the 10 seconds then blow the whistle ending the game. Meet up with your ARs in the center, disregard any dissent or foul comments made by the players/parents/coaches, take note of who said what, and walk together off the field to your bags. I would then go straight to the tournament director and explain what took place. If he is the one that gives you further grief you tell him "Thanks for allowing me to participate but I can see my services are no longer required" and leave the tournament. Call the SYRA and explain what happened, fill out a report and send it in. If anybody has any questions they'll call for you, but otherwise your job is done. If the State Association gives you any kind of grief go straight to USSF and have them deal with it.

Remember, there is no point in really getting all worked up about the situation. You simply do your job within the guidelines of being a referee and leave it at that. The more you try and force your hand or protest, or even talk to the people, the more they will have to use against you. You did your job the best you could and when things go beyond your duties you simply walk away and move on to the next game.

Hope it all works out for you. I know that on the few occasions in which I have had to show cards to coaches in high school it was an effective tool of communication that was unambiguious and short.
PS....There are many youth leagues that allow the use of cards with respect to coaches.

[Malaga CF fan]

Just sad that it happened in a U-12 game. I could see it for U-14 and up when there are regional tournaments, etc... and things get considerably more competitive, but this coach is way out of line and he's teaching his players the same behavior.

Good job with the backbone though. It would have been tough to walk off the field in a championship game, but given the circumstances, it sounds like you did the right thing.