KC Staying: Effect on Atlanta's Chances

[BigKahuna]

I have to admit that, although local ownership and a SSS plan is a good thing for every team, I was secretly hoping that KC wouldn't work things out. I was hoping that they would relocate to Philly thus placing Atlanta a little higher in the pecking order for a team. Now, there are going to be 3 expansion slots for 2010 and since Philly isn't getting the Wiz, they will most likely take one of those spots. I think SJ will get the Quakes back as well. That leaves only one spot instead of two, and Atlanta, Seattle, Cleveland, and Milwaukee as the cities fighting for the team. The competition just got a little stiffer. :mad:

[Eleven Bravo]

I have to admit that, although local ownership and a SSS plan is a good thing for every team, I was secretly hoping that KC wouldn't work things out. I was hoping that they would relocate to Philly thus placing Atlanta a little higher in the pecking order for a team. Now, there are going to be 3 expansion slots for 2010 and since Philly isn't getting the Wiz, they will most likely take one of those spots. I think SJ will get the Quakes back as well. That leaves only one spot instead of two, and Atlanta, Seattle, Cleveland, and Milwaukee as the cities fighting for the team. The competition just got a little stiffer. :mad:

Sad thing is i think you're right. And i'm sure that last place will go to a place like Cleveland with another team only about an hour away so that they can have a "rivalry".

[jade1mls]

Sad thing is i think you're right. And i'm sure that last place will go to a place like Cleveland with another team only about an hour away so that they can have a "rivalry".

why do you put rivalry in quotes? the Cleveland/Columbus rivalry has the potential to be as big as DC/NY or Chivas/LA

trust me i know. i'm originally from that area of the country, the only bigger rival Cleveland could have would be Pittsburgh but since Columbus has stolen the pittsburgh colors and has its own twisted past with cleveland they'll be a good rival.
And just as close.

I'd like to see a club in Atlanta it may still happen but the chances are smaller now. After 2010 there will probably be a whole new expansion round .

[Eleven Bravo]

why do you put rivalry in quotes? the Cleveland/Columbus rivalry has the potential to be as big as DC/NY or Chivas/LA

trust me i know. i'm originally from that area of the country, the only bigger rival Cleveland could have would be Pittsburgh but since Columbus has stolen the pittsburgh colors and has its own twisted past with cleveland they'll be a good rival.
And just as close.

I'd like to see a club in Atlanta it may still happen but the chances are smaller now. After 2010 there will probably be a whole new expansion round .


Building rivalries isn't as important as reaching out to all your fan bases. Once MLS has reached out to the south, northwest, and florida again then it can start building rivalries. Otherwise, you just piss off large portions of people because there is no club to support.

And I don't know...Garber seemed pretty content with sticking with 16-18 teams in all his press conferences.

[MPoole]

Building rivalries isn't as important as reaching out to all your fan bases.

It's also canibalization. Why have two teams within driving distance of eachother (Chivas, LA: NY, Phily: NY, Boston: Chicago, Columbus, KC) when you have entire markets untapped? I wouldn't want to invest in a team that would have to fight for the meager soccer loving population of a city if I could invest in a new, untouched city. It just doesn't make sense for an investor. For the league I can see it, competition keeps people interested, but if I owned a team and saw competing jerseys walking around my city I would be concerned. That would feel like a kick to the bank account every time one passed. They need to schedule the last two spots for Florida and Atlanta. Everyone here knows that any sport that comes around, Florida and Georgia will duke it out. Why not take advantage of two very large, untapped markets? It's like looking a paycheck in the eye and saying "no thanks."

[jade1mls]

Simple.
Soccer is not the NFL.

It thrives on derbies. this is why people talk of a 2nd club in NYC and one in Philadelphia. There are natural rivalries that exist and fuel the passions of fans and I don't know but even in football and basketball you see competiting kits in northeastern cities. LA has done well with Chivas/Galaxy and stands to do even better when the Interliga starts. ChivasUSA will draw Galaxy numbers whenever they play mexican clubs.

Travelling fans boost attendance and rivalries fuel passion. Soccer depends upon that passion. Having far flung teams all over the country regardless of demand in an effort to emulate the NFL's national footprint was the problem with NASL.


Even so they still concentrated along the coasts and MLS is likely to do the same. And the 16 club limit is just for 2010. they will likely begin expanding again after they have had a couple years (2012 maybe?) to see how the league is doing at 16. Don Garber never said the league would stop after 16 just that that is the limit until 2010.

Atlanta will get in eventually but I suspect we will se a 2nd club in NYC proper before that happens.

[Eleven Bravo]

It's also canibalization. Why have two teams within driving distance of eachother (Chivas, LA: NY, Phily: NY, Boston: Chicago, Columbus, KC) when you have entire markets untapped? I wouldn't want to invest in a team that would have to fight for the meager soccer loving population of a city if I could invest in a new, untouched city. It just doesn't make sense for an investor. For the league I can see it, competition keeps people interested, but if I owned a team and saw competing jerseys walking around my city I would be concerned. That would feel like a kick to the bank account every time one passed. They need to schedule the last two spots for Florida and Atlanta. Everyone here knows that any sport that comes around, Florida and Georgia will duke it out. Why not take advantage of two very large, untapped markets? It's like looking a paycheck in the eye and saying "no thanks."

I agree and i think that would make for an excellent rivalry. Everyone knows that Florida and the south don't get along (well, as far as sports go) because even though they are located in the southeast, we have a completely different culture.

Now i would like to see as many teams in the southeast as possible, but if i was investor i wouldn't set up shop in Atlanta and then go right next door to Birmingham. They're both considered southern cities and they would have to fight one another for fans...which like you said i wouldn't want to invest in a town where people are wearing another uniform's colors already.

if i had my way the pecking order for expansion would be:
1) Atlanta
2) Seattle/Portland
3) Miami/Orlando/Tampa Bay
4) San Jose/Bay Area
5) Philadelphia
6) Saint Louis
7) Phoenix/Albuquerque/Las Vegas/El Paso
8) Cary/Greensboro/Charlotte/Raleigh/Winston-Salem
9) Detroit/Milwaukee
10) Rochester
11) Tulsa/Oklahoma City/Memphis

and then call a quits.

[jade1mls]

which like you said i wouldn't want to invest in a town where people are wearing another uniform's colors already.

Yeh like New York or the Bay Area right? hehe...


if i had my way the pecking order for expansion would be:
1) Atlanta
2) Seattle/Portland
3) Miami/Orlando/Tampa Bay
4) San Jose/Bay Area
5) Philadelphia
6) Saint Louis
7) Phoenix/Albuquerque/Las Vegas/El Paso
8) Cary/Greensboro/Charlotte/Raleigh/Winston-Salem
9) Detroit/Milwaukee
10) Rochester
11) Tulsa/Oklahoma City/Memphis

and then call a quits.

Mine would be (contingent upon there being an owner/investor and SSS plan sure to meet approval)

1) Philadelphia (long overdue - great rivalry potential with DC and NY)
2) Cleveland (again long overdue, Columbus only makes sense if you have Cleveland in the league)
3) New York #2 (New York FC - playing somewhere in Brooklyn or Queens - You have the knicks and the nets, the giants and the jets, the islanders and rangers, you MUST at some point have a New York rival for New York Red Bull)
4) A stadium for Chivas USA (not really an expansion but if they played closer to where their community lives this would benefit their attendance and they'd sell out a lot.
5) Portland (If someone could buy out PGE Park and the minor league baseball team that plays there this could happen. PGE Park is a 20,000 seat arena and it hosts the USL-1 Portland Timbers who are known for having probably the 2nd most dedicated and noisey fans in america -second only to DC United's. They also have no other major league sports in the summer.)
6) San Jose (we know they're coming back already)
7) St Louis (Now that KC is staying put, give them the logical rival they need. ST Louis would be a great city for MLS, the support for soccer there is clear.)
8) Either Vancouver or Seattle (Whichever one can secure a stadium first, right now that looks like Vancouver. Of course Toronto FC has exclusive rights to Canada for some time so that would be a long time off...Seattle may get in before then)
9) San Antonio or elsewhere in that area of Texas. It just makes sense in every demographic way possible. There WILL be a 3rd texas rival
10) Club America in Chicago (this has been rumored for a while. It must eventually turn into something. Having Chivas enter MLS was virtual guarantee that their rival Club America would enter. Chicago would be a good place for them as their fan support there would be incredible due to the migration patterns.
11) Atlanta (I put Atlanta 10th only because without Florida then Atlanta makes little sense, the support for soccer in the city unlike Portland is not the greatest but Atlanta is a huge growing city and would be the natural city for MLS to go to in the South) Unlike Portland Atlanta would NEED another regional club to draw support to te rivalry, since MLS is lukewarm on Florida I don't see it happening too soon..

2020 would be my cut off year. 2024 would be the final year for any new expansion.

if MLS is doing well after than then take a new look at Miami, Rochester, Montreal and Research Triangle, NC oranother midwest or southern city.


There should NOT be a club in Phoenix (too hot) The only way i'd have a club there is with a roofed and climate controlled stadium.

Also one should look at the mistakes of NASL when talking about expansion. There is a danger that if you followed Eleven Bravos expansion plan (which strangely mimics NASL) that you put clubs into places with meager soccer support (Detroit?, Las Vegas?)

Its better to build on places which have already shown support for soccer like LA, Portland, Chicago, and the North East than risk overexpansion into places that hurt the league. This is a single entity league so losses must be shared. Best to avoid them at all costs to keep everyone happy than grow and have to contract the next year.

[BigKahuna]

[QUOTE=jade1mls]why do you put rivalry in quotes? the Cleveland/Columbus rivalry has the potential to be as big as DC/NY or Chivas/LA
[QUOTE]

Because people like me are pissed that MLS fans in LA have two teams in their home town while the closest one to me is 8 hours away. I will be furious if Cleveland gets a team before an untapped market like the southeast or northwest gets one.

[BigKahuna]

Yeh like New York or the Bay Area right? hehe...



Mine would be (contingent upon there being an owner/investor and SSS plan sure to meet approval)

1) Philadelphia (long overdue - great rivalry potential with DC and NY)
2) Cleveland (again long overdue, Columbus only makes sense if you have Cleveland in the league)
3) New York #2 (New York FC - playing somewhere in Brooklyn or Queens - You have the knicks and the nets, the giants and the jets, the islanders and rangers, you MUST at some point have a New York rival for New York Red Bull)
4) A stadium for Chivas USA (not really an expansion but if they played closer to where their community lives this would benefit their attendance and they'd sell out a lot.
5) Portland (If someone could buy out PGE Park and the minor league baseball team that plays there this could happen. PGE Park is a 20,000 seat arena and it hosts the USL-1 Portland Timbers who are known for having probably the 2nd most dedicated and noisey fans in america -second only to DC United's. They also have no other major league sports in the summer.)
6) San Jose (we know they're coming back already)
7) St Louis (Now that KC is staying put, give them the logical rival they need. ST Louis would be a great city for MLS, the support for soccer there is clear.)
8) Either Vancouver or Seattle (Whichever one can secure a stadium first, right now that looks like Vancouver. Of course Toronto FC has exclusive rights to Canada for some time so that would be a long time off...Seattle may get in before then)
9) San Antonio or elsewhere in that area of Texas. It just makes sense in every demographic way possible. There WILL be a 3rd texas rival
10) Club America in Chicago (this has been rumored for a while. It must eventually turn into something. Having Chivas enter MLS was virtual guarantee that their rival Club America would enter. Chicago would be a good place for them as their fan support there would be incredible due to the migration patterns.
11) Atlanta (I put Atlanta 10th only because without Florida then Atlanta makes little sense, the support for soccer in the city unlike Portland is not the greatest but Atlanta is a huge growing city and would be the natural city for MLS to go to in the South) Unlike Portland Atlanta would NEED another regional club to draw support to te rivalry, since MLS is lukewarm on Florida I don't see it happening too soon..


Boy, I'm glad you aren't the one making the decisions. The horrible truth about this for Atlanta fans is we are in a race for a team. I think it will be very difficult, if not impossible to be one of the first 16, and I think that after 2010 we won't see another expansion year for AT LEAST 4 years. Maybe if we get the 2014 WC we could see two new teams in 2015 but otherwise I'd bet it'll be 2016-2018 before we get to 18 teams.

So at that point we must wonder what MLS will do. FIFA recommends an 18 team max....I like 20 but any more than that would either require a promotion/relegation system formation or no more eastern conference teams playing western conference teams during the regular season.

[jade1mls]

You are very correct. The news out of Philly today is that they are going ahead with the stadium. Chances are high that the next two to enter will be San Jose, and Philadelphia. So that's 14 and 15. 16 is anyone's guess but the smart money would be on Cleveland (which already has a developer) and St Louis (ditto) with the darkhorses being Milwaukee, Club America, Atlanta and Seattle.

[jbeall]

You are very correct. The news out of Philly today is that they are going ahead with the stadium. Chances are high that the next two to enter will be San Jose, and Philadelphia. So that's 14 and 15. 16 is anyone's guess but the smart money would be on Cleveland (which already has a developer) and St Louis (ditto) with the darkhorses being Milwaukee, Club America, Atlanta and Seattle.


Not so fast on Philly expansion! Philly MLS Team Facing Major Hurdles (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/soccer/09/01/bc.soc.mls.rowan.ap/index.html)

This could shake out in Atlanta's favor. Also, The northeast corridor has some good (if one-sided) rivalries. Red Bull NY is a 3, 3.5 hour drive from DC, a five hour drive to Foxboro, so there really isn't a need for another mid-atlantic team. But as everybody on this thread knows, MLS continues to ignore entire regions of the country, and that needs to change.


I really hope San Jose gets the Quakes back. NoCal is a big enough market that there should be a team there, and the NoCal/SoCal rivalry was great for the league. But Atlanta should definitely enter before Milwaukee and St. Louis (and frankly, I'm fine with Columbus being the only Ohio team for now... the location is good, and there are fewer "big four" franchises to compete with).

[uclacarlos]

4) A stadium for Chivas USA (not really an expansion but if they played closer to where their community lives this would benefit their attendance and they'd sell out a lot.
Carson is fine location-wise for the LA Latino. Latinos are everywhere, but Carson is just southwest of the most densely populated area in the country west of the Mississippi**, and it's 99+% Latino.

**so I've heard... The area is Bell, Southgate, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park.

And regarding Club America Chicago... there's just not enough Mexicans there to pull it off. Chicago is obviously an important center for Mexicans in the US, but it pales in comparison to LA. Honestly, w/ 5.5 million Mexicans, a 3rd LA team would be a better than a 2nd Houston or Chicago team.