Roy Keane, Manager

[Matt Clark]

I know this isn't a Premiership issue (nor, given recent events, is it likely to be any time soon) but I can't think of anywhere else to put this.

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of Roy Keane's appointment as Sunderland manager. If I were a Mackem, I'd be mortified at the moment that the "great turnaround", which was apparently heralded by the arrival of Niall Quinn and the consortium backing him, has gone tits-up this quickly. This latest twist in the tale is surely the most embarrassing moment yet.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Take your bitter scouse crap to rivalries.

[Matt Clark]

:rolleyes:

Thanks for stopping by!

[Zidane's Head]

Tis a pity, for I shall miss Niall Quinn finding ways to go on for 15 minutes, when he could basically just say: "I suck, the team sucks, we all suck".

[Matt Clark]

Yeah, no one can blame him for casting around for someone other than himself to manage a football team. But still ... talk about compouding rookie mistakes in the dressing room with even bigger ones in the boardroom.

[chrizzah]

You almost can't wait to hear what Keane's big outburst will be when the whole thing comes to an end.

[nicephoras]

If I didn't know about Sunderland's current plight, I'd probably say this was likely a move out of desperation. I.e. - given that nothing has worked, lets try something with a potential for huge success despite the far, far higher potential to fail fantastically. (Think of it a sinking all your money in an asteroid mining scheme.)

Given, of course, that we all know just how bad things are at Sunderland, its quite obviously a move driven by a management team literally at its wits end. A management team that's one step short of showering their players with toxic ooze in the hope that one of them might this acquire super powers (like the super power of set piece defending).

Don't get me wrong - I admire Keane in a certain way; unlike Matt I think he was the best Premiership player I've seen, especially in the late 90s when he was absolutely fantastic. But being a talented footballer with a somewhat psychotic (or is that psychopathic?) personality doesn't in any way suggest he'll be a competent manager. Nothing we know about Roy Keane suggests he'd be a good manager at all. Sure, its possible he'll prove us all wrong and go on to be the next coming of Fabio Capello. But its also possible that Didier Drogba will suddenly develop the first touch of Gianfranco Zola. I'm just not betting on it.

[Matt Clark]

If I didn't know about Sunderland's current plight, I'd probably say this was likely a move out of desperation.
Even if you didn't know about it, it would surely smack anyone with a passing interest in football as a desperate move. This isn't actually about Sunderland or Roy Keane, it's about the wider trend (and I think it can be called a trend) for appointing marquee names over proven, suitable experience. This thread could be about any player and any club - indeed, within a year or so it could be about Alan Shearer and Newcastle, to use just one more example.

Given, of course, that we all know just how bad things are at Sunderland, its quite obviously a move driven by a management team literally at its wits end.
Precisely. Which is why if I were a Sunderland fan, I'd be depressed as hell - this team has been in place for less than five minutes and its already reduced to this sort of panicky nonsense.

Roy Keane may prove to be a fantastic manager, he might turn out to be the best manager ever. I doubt it, but who's to say? No one knows. Certainly Sunderland don't and that's the issue at hand, that's the crux of the absurdity of this situation.

Don't get me wrong - I admire Keane in a certain way; unlike Matt I think he was the best Premiership player I've seen, especially in the late 90s when he was absolutely fantastic.
I think he was one of the best Premiership players I've seen, that's all. A matter of degrees.

Nothing we know about Roy Keane suggests he'd be a good manager at all. Sure, its possible he'll prove us all wrong and go on to be the next coming of Fabio Capello. But its also possible that Didier Drogba will suddenly develop the first touch of Gianfranco Zola. I'm just not betting on it.
Which is what makes Sunderland's decision to gamble £6m on finding out the ludicrous move it is. Here's a club with £36m of debt and Premiership facilities to finance off a listless and fickle support base and they put their fate into the hands of a 35-year old with zero coaching or management credentials and an at best suspect suitability for the faultline skills required by a manager of any kind of team, whether it plays football or processes insurance claims. It's beyond absurd - it's embarrassing, as I've said. Rookie chairman, a consortium of backers who can, at best, be described as enthusiastic amateurs in the football industry and now a more-or-less guaranteed calamity sitting in the dugout with £6m of their money.

That said, Mick McCarthy's a crap manager as well and he got this squad promoted, so we may yet get to enjoy this circus extend into a season at the highest level. :D

[Jenson]

Nothing we know about Roy Keane suggests he'd be a good manager at all.

Fergie has talked about him being his replacement at Old Trafford for several years. He sounded almost human in the press conference yesterday.

I may be clutching desperately at straws (and so may the Drumaville Consortium) but then it's never been dull supporting Sunderland. Heart breaking, embarrassing, exhilarating, joyous, mostly disappointing and bordering on the unbelievable. (Having your best player, a little Argentinian being hospitalised by a jellyfish after a post training swim in the ice cold North Sea, for example).

I think Mr. Keane will fit right in.

[Matt Clark]

Ferguson also used to say Bryan Robson would make an exceptional manager.

[nicephoras]

Fergie has talked about him being his replacement at Old Trafford for several years.

I think he was just torturing Citeh and Liverpool fans with the prospect of that dream.

He sounded almost human in the press conference yesterday.
I may be clutching desperately at straws (and so may the Drumaville Consortium) but then it's never been dull supporting Sunderland. Heart breaking, embarrassing, exhilarating, joyous, mostly disappointing and bordering on the unbelievable. (Having your best player, a little Argentinian being hospitalised by a jellyfish after a post training swim in the ice cold North Sea, for example).
I think Mr. Keane will fit right in.

I agree - he'll fit right in a side that's not doing very well right now. I suspect in a few weeks Keane will try to suit up after being disgusted by how poorly his charges are playing, not having realized that they're just not as good as he is. (Say, like Michael Jordan, to put another sports parallel in there.) There's a reason why few great players make great managers, and the ones that do tend to be "cerebral" players to begin with, like Cruyff or Beckenbauer (and, to an extent, DiStefano who won a title with the Che and promoted much of the Quinta del Buitre to Real's first team, if I recall correctly). The "he used to be a great player, lets hire him to manage" malaise is especially prevalent in England, despite there being no indications once so ever that they actually make good managers. Of the top managers in the EPL right now, none were good players (Mourinho, SAF, Benitez, Wenger).

[Jenson]

Ferguson also used to say Bryan Robson would make an exceptional manager.

The usage of the past tense being important there.
Or perhaps he really did mean 'exceptional' as in being an exception. ;)

[nicephoras]

Even if you didn't know about it, it would surely smack anyone with a passing interest in football as a desperate move. This isn't actually about Sunderland or Roy Keane, it's about the wider trend (and I think it can be called a trend) for appointing marquee names over proven, suitable experience. This thread could be about any player and any club - indeed, within a year or so it could be about Alan Shearer and Newcastle, to use just one more example.

I've written a bit about it above - its worse in England. There's this notion that a player who was good might make a good manager. I can't understand why, but.....you know - he was a legend! Although, of course, Keane was in no way a Sunderland legend, but whatever. It'd be a bit like Chelsea appointing, say, Chopper Harris as our next manager after being relegated. Legend and all, but......um......you know.
(In Spain the managerial problem is hopscotch - we had a poor season, lets hire that guy. Which guy? The guy that just had a bad season with another club! Whereas Italy has a collection of 5 managers who've coached everyone at some point, and I expect Eriksson to go back to one of the big Italian clubs soon.)

Precisely. Which is why if I were a Sunderland fan, I'd be depressed as hell - this team has been in place for less than five minutes and its already reduced to this sort of panicky nonsense.

Well, that's the problem - their board's got no experience in running a club either. Now I'm sure Quinn's a nice guy (and every interview I've seen with him suggests he is), but what does he know about running a football club? Not a thing. So naturally he's lashing out in a few directions to find something. He realizes that he's gotten Sunderland fans somewhat energized after organizing the takeover, making promises, etc. He needs to keep that going - so he went for the stars. Its likely he'll crash long before he gets there, but I don't think Keane's the sort who can really do THAT much damager to Sunderland. Really, how much damage could he do them? Its not like he's Risdale at Leeds. Unless he injures a couple of the relatively useless Sunderland players on the pitch, he'll just leave the club in a mess, which is pretty much the way he's found them.

Roy Keane may prove to be a fantastic manager, he might turn out to be the best manager ever. I doubt it, but who's to say? No one knows. Certainly Sunderland don't and that's the issue at hand, that's the crux of the absurdity of this situation.

Well, OK, here's a task for you - find a manager for Sunderland AFC. Find one who's reputable. Go ahead. Really, whom are you going to get? They're a distinctly unappetizing proposition right now. Certainly no one who's a real world class coach will take them on. So you'd be down to getting someone like Peter Reid back (although even he said he wouldn't be interested) or another run of the mill sad sack like McCarthy. Really, given their options, its not like they turned down a combination of Helenio Herrera and Arrigo Sacchi to hire Keane.

I think he was one of the best Premiership players I've seen, that's all. A matter of degrees.

Relatively moot to this anyway, to be honest.

Which is what makes Sunderland's decision to gamble £6m on finding out the ludicrous move it is. Here's a club with £36m of debt and Premiership facilities to finance off a listless and fickle support base and they put their fate into the hands of a 35-year old with zero coaching or management credentials and an at best suspect suitability for the faultline skills required by a manager of any kind of team, whether it plays football or processes insurance claims. It's beyond absurd - it's embarrassing, as I've said. Rookie chairman, a consortium of backers who can, at best, be described as enthusiastic amateurs in the football industry and now a more-or-less guaranteed calamity sitting in the dugout with £6m of their money.
That said, Mick McCarthy's a crap manager as well and he got this squad promoted, so we may yet get to enjoy this circus extend into a season at the highest level. :D

As I've said, there isn't THAT much Keane can do to really hurt them, they should have enough money to avoid relegation from the Colaship. And they're not spoiled for choice. So while yes, I do think this is out of the realm of hilariously stupid, its not like hiring Graeme Souness and giving him an unlimited budget.
Besides, what's all the umbrage about - this is free comedy, and some of the best kind! I'll be disappointed if he ********s off in a month like Camacho did at Real a few seasons back, really.
Although are they really paying him £6M? THAT's dumb.

[chrizzah]

I think we've moved on from the era where a team captain can effectively go on to become player-manager and manager. Managing a team today is completely different from thirty years ago. Largers squads, bigger transfers and the fact that clubs are increasingly just businesses make the manager's vastly different. Keane may well one day become a good manager, but I think there is a lot to learn about the operations of a team and the purely psychological aspect of dealing with the media and internally with the team. Given his knack for speaking of the cuff when he gets upset, I have no doubt that Keane's best move would have been to have worked under the tutelage of a mentor for several seasons before taking over himself. That's what Tony Adams found out and I'm willing to bet Garreth Southgate will find out.

[Matt Clark]

I don't think Keane's the sort who can really do THAT much damager to Sunderland. Really, how much damage could he do them?
Not a vast amount per se, of course not. But I've alluded to their situation in a previous post: Sunderland are, in some crucial respects (all associated with money going out, rather than money coming in) a Premiership club: they've got the stadium and the facilities and the one-club town catchment area. Thing is, those need to be financed with Premiership incomes. Which, as has been exhaustively documented, ain't available in the Championship. Roy Keane may, in his three years in charge (arf ...), do nothing that could be construed as catastrophic or horribly damaging - he may simply not get them promoted.

The consortium that now owns the club needs the revenue that's coming in to be substantial in order to make good on its propositions to fans and bankers alike. And its in that context that spunking another £6m of someone else's money on a rookie manager with no track record and no indication of capability beyond "he's a real winner" is so absurd.

Well, OK, here's a task for you - find a manager for Sunderland AFC. Find one who's reputable. Go ahead. Really, whom are you going to get? They're a distinctly unappetizing proposition right now. Certainly no one who's a real world class coach will take them on.
Of course not - and only a Sunderland fan would look amongst "world class" managers for their next leader. Sunderland need a solid, experienced pro to handle the rigours of the Championship, give the consortium the on-the-field breathing space they need and get them promoted as soon as possible. A Mike Newell, Paul Sturrock or perhaps even a Brian Little. That's the level Sunderland find themselves at and whilst none of those people would represent a Premiership future for Sunderland (with the possible exception of the interestingly talented Newell) they do represent the current urgent priorities far more accurately than £2m-a-year Roy Keane.

Besides, what's all the umbrage about - this is free comedy, and some of the best kind!
It's not umbrage, but as you yourself have acknowledged, it is a troubling tendency in English football and it does do damage to our long-term coaching infrastructure. I'd rather we had more Aidy Boothroyd stories in English football than Roy Keane circuses.

[nicephoras]

Not a vast amount per se, of course not. But I've alluded to their situation in a previous post: Sunderland are, in some crucial respects (all associated with money going out, rather than money coming in) a Premiership club: they've got the stadium and the facilities and the one-club town catchment area. Thing is, those need to be financed with Premiership incomes. Which, as has been exhaustively documented, ain't available in the Championship. Roy Keane may, in his three years in charge (arf ...), do nothing that could be construed as catastrophic or horribly damaging - he may simply not get them promoted.

We all know he won't be in charge for 3 years. If he actually does well, he'll jump ship to a big club at the first opportunity, since someone will repeat the "whoa, I can hire Roy Keane" mistake Quinn has just made. Clubs have been doing it with Souness for almost two decades. And if he fails spectacularly, he'll do it quickly. In the 5 months I'd suspect he'll be in charge he won't overly hurt them. I think Sunderland are aiming to keep fans interested, and like it or not, they'll be interested with Keane around. He manufactures his own press. It'd be like Mourinho coaching a pub team - the press'd show up despite the fact that it was just a pub team.

The consortium that now owns the club needs the revenue that's coming in to be substantial in order to make good on its propositions to fans and bankers alike. And its in that context that spunking another £6m of someone else's money on a rookie manager with no track record and no indication of capability beyond "he's a real winner" is so absurd.

The fee is absurd, agreed, and the concept is stupid, its just not terminally stupid. I had the same reaction to Mclaren's annointment as England coach - why so much money to someone who'd practically have taken the job for free? Not like Boro fans were desparate to keep hold of him. Its not like Keane is awash in offers to manage respectable clubs.

Of course not - and only a Sunderland fan would look amongst "world class" managers for their next leader. Sunderland need a solid, experienced pro to handle the rigours of the Championship, give the consortium the on-the-field breathing space they need and get them promoted as soon as possible. A Mike Newell, Paul Sturrock or perhaps even a Brian Little. That's the level Sunderland find themselves at and whilst none of those people would represent a Premiership future for Sunderland (with the possible exception of the interestingly talented Newell) they do represent the current urgent priorities far more accurately than £2m-a-year Roy Keane.

Yes, that's all well and logical, but think of it from the new management's perspective. They need something........shiny to parade in front of the media. Had the club gotten off to a great start, they could have hired someone like Sturrock, sure (I don't even know who Brian Little is, to be honest) and things would have been peachy keen. But he's not exciting, he's not new, he's a retread. And this is a new management team looking to do things a different way. So they went.........xtreme, in marketing terms. Its a stupid decision, yes. But this whole takeover wasn't planned any better than "we can do better than that!" Really, how could they not have had a manager lined up for the start of the season?

It's not umbrage, but as you yourself have acknowledged, it is a troubling tendency in English football and it does do damage to our long-term coaching infrastructure. I'd rather we had more Aidy Boothroyd stories in English football than Roy Keane circuses.

Umbrage was the wrong word - I was looking for outrage. And you're an England fan, so you care about "English football" - I'm just along for the ride. :p Although I do agree with you on a general point - I just keep wondering when English boards will realize that appointing former players doesn't work. Why Boro did that with Southgate, I don't know. Its not like the lower divisions don't contain potentially good managers.

[revelationx]

I think it may prove to be a mistake.

From football365.com...

'For a more unbiased view, from a former international teammate of Keane's, let us take you back to the Sky Sports News studio in November of last year, when the Irishman had just made his spectacular exit from ManYoo.

Jim White: "Will Roy Keane ever be a top-level manager?"

Niall Quinn: "I don't think so, no."'

From the BBC...

Of course Quinn also previously claimed this week he would bring in a 'world-class manager' after initially claiming his plan was the following; "We have to gather momentum, and then to lift it so that we get to a point where I can pick the phone up, go to a world-class manager and hopefully with the position we are then in, say to him 'come now'."


The list of top players who have succeeded at management in England is short whereas the list of top players who have attempted management in England is very long.

This is a key time for Sunderland - they have just been relegated and still have the parachute payments from the Premiership. In addition they still have most of the squad that stormed through the 1st Division two years ago. They are thus well placed to attain promotion but not if their manager makes too many mistakes. Keane is going to have to learn on the job without benefit of any specific management training. Quinn has taken a big and expensive gamble in appointing Keane. I hope for the sake of the Sunderland fans it pays off.

[When Hell Unfreezes]

You lot are full of wind and piss......

Wot the fcuk have the Mackems got to lose?

And as for him jumping ship if he is successful, where to, he hasn't even got his coaching badges yet, you bunch of pricks..............

The Stadium of Sh!te cannot get any lower, so leave them alone and see what transpires, I have my own thoughts on Keano and they do err on the side of the negative, but he's making the right sounds, for the first time in his life.............:(

[Peakite]

Wot the fcuk have the Mackems got to lose?


About £6m for a start. Possibly more if he does really badly.

Several managers who would be potentially suited to the role have been mentioned already, plus even some of the younger managers with some success at the start of their careers in the lower levels of professional football here.

And Sunderland can go an awful lot lower.

[Toon³]

This move is so desperate it's almost not funny anymore......I said almost :p