Ugo Ihemelu and Mark Geiger

[Bootsy Collins]

If possible, I'd be interested in the opinion of refs who read/post here on Matt Geiger's handling of Ugo Ihemelu over the course of the LA @ DC match on Saturday.

[USSF REF]

If possible, I'd be interested in the opinion of refs who read/post here on Matt Geiger's handling of Ugo Ihemelu over the course of the LA @ DC match on Saturday.

His name is Mark Geiger.

Also, as I cannot watch the entire match, could you please elaborate on your opinions, as you're the one bringing up the topic, so we know how to respond. Can we tell from one highlight, or was it a long sequence of events that you are refering to?

[Bootsy Collins]

His name is Mark Geiger.

My apologies. I hate it when I make a mistake like that. I hope some mod will change the thread subject.


Also, as I cannot watch the entire match, could you please elaborate on your opinions, as you're the one bringing up the topic, so we know how to respond.

Well, if one wasn't at the match, it may be impossible to see anything from it at this point; it wasn't televised. So my question was of necessity aimed at refs who were actually there.

Can we tell from one highlight, or was it a long sequence of events that you are refering to?
Yes: both of the above.

Ihemelu, one of the league leaders in both fouls called and yellows, picked up a yellow card very early in the match for a harsh tackle. Presumably because he was carrying (although of course I don't know that), Geiger seemed reluctant to give him card #2. His fouls became progressively more and more brutal over the course of the match -- and they were called, to be sure, but didn't earn him another card even though they were becoming more frequent and more extreme. In about the 70th minute or so, a studs-up tackle from behind, with the second leg coming in in a scissors action, brought Dominic Mediate down from behind and snapped his leg. There was a
decent picture of the tackle (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/sports/dcunited/?nav=left) in-progress on the front page of the Washington Post Sports section on Sunday. Even this did not earn Ihemelu a second yellow; on the other hand, it earned Mediate a season-ending, and possibly career-ending, leg fracture.

Everyone in the stadium, even LA fans with whom I spoke, saw it coming over the course of the match; it was only a question of when Ihemelu would end up injuring someone. And to my mind, the most important job of a referee, more important even than callling infractions correctly, is to call the match in such a way as to eliminate any unreasonable threat to the safety of the players involved. That's why players get cards for persistent infringement; that's why games get called when there's lightning out. That Ihemelu didn't get a card for his fouls leading up to the tackle of Mediate seemed bizarre; that he didn't get one even for the tackle that broke Mediate's leg I can't fathom.

Nevertheless, I am not a referee. I'm perfectly willing to believe there's some reason I don't know why Geiger's card stayed in his pocket over the course of the match. So I was interested in the opinions of referees who were there.

[Craig P]

Ihemelu has been suspended for two games and fined for SFP for the incident in question.

http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20060829&content_id=70792&vkey=pr_mls&fext=.jsp

I interpret that to mean that the disciplinary committee thought the tackle should have drawn a straight red.

[Claymore]

Looks like Mark may be cooling his heels for a while. A shame really, as he's one of the rising young refs.

[bluedevils]

I'm not defending the no-card decision, but having just watched the replay the tackle was not as bad as I was expecting based on the comments in this thread and the knowledge that MLS suspended Ihemelu for 2 games. At first glance, it looks like he may have gotten some of the ball with his right leg.

[Bootsy Collins]

I'm not defending the no-card decision, but having just watched the replay the tackle was not as bad as I was expecting based on the comments in this thread and the knowledge that MLS suspended Ihemelu for 2 games. At first glance, it looks like he may have gotten some of the ball with his right leg.
I don't think there's any doubt he got ball with his right foot. I'm not aware of any Law of the Game, however, that indicates that a dangerous play/SFP (such as a studs-up tackle, or a scissors movement of the second leg which brings a player down, or in this case both) is excused if the tackler got ball. I know that's not what you're saying (as you make clear in your first sentence); but every year I hear from enough people saying "no no, he got ball first, so it's ok!" that I feel like saying this anyway.

[shawn12011]

I'm not defending the no-card decision, but having just watched the replay the tackle was not as bad as I was expecting based on the comments in this thread and the knowledge that MLS suspended Ihemelu for 2 games. At first glance, it looks like he may have gotten some of the ball with his right leg.

As has been quoted here many time getting the ball has no effect on whether a foul was commited. Geiger's IMHO biggest issue is he seems to let matches get out of his control at times. He seems no what to call but at times seems tenative to call it.

[Bootsy Collins]

Looks like Mark may be cooling his heels for a while. A shame really, as he's one of the rising young refs.
Several people have said to me several times before this match that he's one of the better refs in the league now. It's hard for me to feel that at this point, though: apart from letting this tackle go, I strongly believe that if he'd been doing his job correctly, Ihemelu would not have been on the pitch to make this tackle.

[Claymore]

He is one of the better refs, IMO. We all have bad games, believe me.

[shawn12011]

He is one of the better refs, IMO. We all have bad games, believe me.


Actually he will be, right now it seems like the game moves to fast for his mind too often.

[Liverpool_SC]

I'm not defending the no-card decision, but having just watched the replay the tackle was not as bad as I was expecting based on the comments in this thread and the knowledge that MLS suspended Ihemelu for 2 games. At first glance, it looks like he may have gotten some of the ball with his right leg.
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/08/26/PH2006082600943.jpg

Can anyone please tell me how a two-footed, knee-high scissor kick from behind could possibly NOT be a red card?

I mean, maybe it is only a 7 'hacksaw' tackle on a 10 'hacksaw' scale (Roy Keane trying to eviscerate Alfe Inge Halland being the 10 'hacksaw' standard) but if this is not serious foul play . . . then soccer ought to be played by gladiators.

And merely touching the ball does not justify this kind of contact.

[intechpc]

Can anyone please tell me how a two-footed, knee-high scissor kick from behind could possibly NOT be a red card?

I mean, maybe it is only a 7 'hacksaw' tackle on a 10 'hacksaw' scale (Roy Keane trying to eviscerate Alfe Inge Halland being the 10 'hacksaw' standard) but if this is not serious foul play . . . then soccer ought to be played by gladiators.

And merely touching the ball does not justify this kind of contact.

I have to agree with you. I don't care if he is normally the cleanest player on the pitch, that's gotta be a red. There was no attempt made for the ball at all, the contact with the ball was incidental at best. Having seen the live action now, I can say with certainty that this "tackle" was aimed at doing nothing more than taking down the player. Hell he didn't even really make an attempt to play the ball after he got back up. IMO a two game suspension is a little light.

[PVancouver]

As has been quoted here many time getting the ball has no effect on whether a foul was commited. Geiger's IMHO biggest issue is he seems to let matches get out of his control at times. He seems no what to call but at times seems tenative to call it.
This is not true. Getting the ball first does make a difference, because if you get the player first a direct free kick will be awarded because you tackled "an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball." Even if the tackle was "not careless, reckless, or using excessive force."

From the online video it doesn't seem to me that Ihemelu deserved a two game suspension, but then, the video gives a limited view of the play.

[shawn12011]

This is not true. Getting the ball first does make a difference, because if you get the player first a direct free kick will be awarded because you tackled "an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball." Even if the tackle was "not careless, reckless, or using excessive force."

From the online video it doesn't seem to me that Ihemelu deserved a two game suspension, but then, the video gives a limited view of the play.

No, let me try this. If I tackle an opponent get the ball with my lead foot and then follow thru with my trail leg I have commited an foul. I may tackle through the ball but I do not have carte blanche once I have made contact with the ball.

[bluedevils]

Can anyone please tell me how a two-footed, knee-high scissor kick from behind could possibly NOT be a red card?

I mean, maybe it is only a 7 'hacksaw' tackle on a 10 'hacksaw' scale (Roy Keane trying to eviscerate Alfe Inge Halland being the 10 'hacksaw' standard) but if this is not serious foul play . . . then soccer ought to be played by gladiators.

And merely touching the ball does not justify this kind of contact.

I'm not saying the tackle was okay, but I'm also not convinced from the small-screen clip without sound etc that it was a clear sendoff. Looking at the picture you provided, which I already had seen, I personally would not describe it as a "two-footed, knee-high scissor kick from behind." Yes, it was a 2-footed challenge and the 2nd foot/leg came in late and from behind in what looks like might qualify as a 'scissor' motion. But the first foot got the ball, seemingly first, and as the picture shows the first foot remained pretty close to the ground.

Technically, I guess the challenge was from behind but it seemed like the tackle was going to occur from the side until the attacker seemed to accelerate and put the defender behind him.

The video clip really doesn't paint the full picture for me, unfortunately.

I'm not trying to defend dirty play or these sorts of tackles, but from what I see this one was not as bad as people think. Would it have been a 2-game suspension if the player hadn't suffered a broken leg? Should it have been? Should the injury matter in determining the punishment?

[NHRef]

No, let me try this. If I tackle an opponent get the ball with my lead foot and then follow thru with my trail leg I have commited an foul. I may tackle through the ball but I do not have carte blanche once I have made contact with the ball.

True, but if you go in with one leg, get the ball and the player then trips over that one leg, its a clean tackle, however, same tackle, but miss the ball and the player comes down, its a foul.

Getting the ball does NOT give you carte blanche to take out people, but it does matter on SOME tackles.

[shawn12011]

True, but if you go in with one leg, get the ball and the player then trips over that one leg, its a clean tackle, however, same tackle, but miss the ball and the player comes down, its a foul.

Getting the ball does NOT give you carte blanche to take out people, but it does matter on SOME tackles.


I agree I wanted to make sure PVancouver and more so bluedevils knew that.

[bluedevils]

I agree I wanted to make sure PVancouver and more so bluedevils knew that.

Definitely. As a national referee and former semi-pro player, I am definitely in agreement with what you and NHRef were saying.

[intechpc]

I'm not trying to defend dirty play or these sorts of tackles, but from what I see this one was not as bad as people think. Would it have been a 2-game suspension if the player hadn't suffered a broken leg? Should it have been? Should the injury matter in determining the punishment?

See I totally disagree, I don't see anything in the photo or the video that looks like an attempt to play the ball. First, in the still shot, even his lower foot is quite high for a properly executed tackle. Add to that the fact that his studs are in the side of Geiger's shin and I have a hard time saying this is a normal tackle.

Now go watch the video, Ihemelu is already beat (there was never any intent to come from the side) and makes a desperation move with his feet going directly at Geiger's feet. Sure he hits the ball but that's almost incidental following what I can only catagorize as a malicious trip. Add on top of that the other leg swinging in quite high and late to ensure a complete take down (rather than simply a trip that Geiger may have recovered from) and I don't see any way to look at it as any less than SFP.

As far as should the subsequent injury factor in, my opinion is yes it should. His illegal actions had consequences for Geiger and the discipline is performed to ensure that Ihemelu understands that his actions will have consequences for himself as well. Why shouldn't they be comensurate with the consequences he caused others.