View Full Version : Thatcher/Mendes incident
ctsoccer13
25 Aug 2006, 10:10 AM
Just wondering how many of you saw the Thatcher/Mendes incident. If you haven't, here is a link to the video (it happens kinda far into it):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=syurgraIu5o
It's incredible that the referee only gave a yellow. I realize we have the benefit of instant replay, but watching the pace that Thatcher came in with, there is obviously no intent to play the ball. Later he also misses a very blatant hand ball in the box. Bad day for this ref.
Ref Flunkie
25 Aug 2006, 10:21 AM
Just wondering how many of you saw the Thatcher/Mendes incident. If you haven't, here is a link to the video (it happens kinda far into it):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=syurgraIu5o
It's incredible that the referee only gave a yellow. I realize we have the benefit of instant replay, but watching the pace that Thatcher came in with, there is obviously no intent to play the ball. Later he also misses a very blatant hand ball in the box. Bad day for this ref.
I'll be honest, I didn't see the elbow until the replay. Not sure where the ref was positioned, but it is unlikely he saw the elbow either, or it would have likely been a red. However, upon replay, I can clearly see it and think it should have been a red.
Yup that was a handling call missed too.
ctsoccer13
25 Aug 2006, 10:24 AM
I can see how the ref would have been screened of the elbow (maybe), but you can't mistake the speed of Thatcher coming in. He never even slows down. That's what stood out the most to me.
Englishref
25 Aug 2006, 10:26 AM
I don't think either of these clips will be added to the highlight reel when hoping to show FIFA why the age limit should be increased... ;)
It was a disgraceful tackle that has rightly been slammed by Portsmouth, Man City, Stuart Pearce, the media, and even the PFA. Unfortunately, the only ones who seem to condone it are FIFA who stand by their ridiculous ruling that if a referee makes a human mistake, then instances like this should be brushed under the carpet, rather than given it the full punishment it deserves. If ever there was a case for relaxing/scrapping this approach, then this tackle is it.
It doesn't surprise me, either, that the police are involved.
Claymore
25 Aug 2006, 10:44 AM
Even assuming the ref didn't see the elbow, the guy was running in at full pace and not even looking at the ball. Should have been a red, no doubt.
Is the FA reviewing this?
jacoismyhero
25 Aug 2006, 10:58 AM
The police SHOULD be involved there. There is no place for gamesmanship like that in this sport. I can understand the referee possibly missing the sending-off there, though it was pretty clear from any angle the lack of control that Thatcher went into Mendes with. The handling call was atrocious, though. Everyone has a bad game sometimes. I'm glad to see the amount of disdain most of the people involved with this game felt for that tackle; it sort of gives me hope that the sport isn't completely going down the tubes.
Ref Flunkie
25 Aug 2006, 11:50 AM
Even assuming the ref didn't see the elbow, the guy was running in at full pace and not even looking at the ball. Should have been a red, no doubt.
Is the FA reviewing this?
I disagree. If he would have hit him shoulder to shoulder, I don't see it anything beyond a yellow. Just my opinion.
jacoismyhero
25 Aug 2006, 11:57 AM
Eh, that's very debatable. You sort of have to make a decision as to wear to draw the line between unsporting behavior and VC/SFP. The elbow in the video clearly makes it SFP, but I think it might be a safe bet that with the intent to injure the player, the speed at which he took after the player, and the careless and reckless and intimidating behavior exhibited, even shoulder to shoulder contact could be a SFP send-off as well.
Ref Flunkie
25 Aug 2006, 12:47 PM
Eh, that's very debatable. You sort of have to make a decision as to wear to draw the line between unsporting behavior and VC/SFP. The elbow in the video clearly makes it SFP, but I think it might be a safe bet that with the intent to injure the player, the speed at which he took after the player, and the careless and reckless and intimidating behavior exhibited, even shoulder to shoulder contact could be a SFP send-off as well.
Yeah but these are big boys and they play fast and hard. If he had gone through the back or anything else, then I say sure, SFP. However, these guys seem to like to hit and play physical, so I'm not sure we can say just the speed itself would make it SFP.
tmaker
25 Aug 2006, 01:05 PM
Yeah but these are big boys and they play fast and hard. If he had gone through the back or anything else, then I say sure, SFP. However, these guys seem to like to hit and play physical, so I'm not sure we can say just the speed itself would make it SFP.
Apparently, we're all unclear on the definition of excessive force. Please inform us.
Ref Flunkie
25 Aug 2006, 01:09 PM
Apparently, we're all unclear on the definition of excessive force. Please inform us.
In the opinion of the referee.
Englishref
25 Aug 2006, 02:12 PM
Is the FA reviewing this?
Apparently the FA are going to ask FIFA to allow them to make this an exception. Unfortunately, I doubt FIFA will agree, and say that ok, the referee made a mistake which will lead to a player who assaulted another getting away scot free, but the referee made the decision, and therefore we can't do anything about that. :rolleyes:
Englishref
25 Aug 2006, 02:14 PM
Having just checked the BBC website, it seems the FA have decided on their own that this is an 'exceptional' case, and charged him with SFP. It'll be interesting to see FIFA's reaction if The FA do upgrade the yellow to a red, having already been told off by them for doing so previously...
Wahoo
25 Aug 2006, 02:41 PM
I could see how the center ref might have missed the elbow... but among the center ref, the 2 assistants, and the 4th official, I am amazed that noone thought it violent conduct.
Somebody should have seen it.
Granted we're all seeing the clip where we know what we're looking for and what happened as a result, but it appears there was no attempt to do anything but injure a player.
I'm also a bit suprised that the ref didn't have a full brawl on his hands afterwards... can't believe someone didn't go up and deck Thatcher.
intechpc
25 Aug 2006, 02:42 PM
I guess I'm inclined to agree that minus the elbow I can see how the referee would go to USB as opposed to VC/SFP. He had a chance to save the ball before it left the FOP as he came charging in. That's the way I read it right up until contact was made. From the vantage point of the referee (which was somewhere near the top of the 18 based on where he was just before going out of frame), I can see how he interpreted it as a dangerous attempt to save the ball from going out of play (assuming again of course that he was screened from seeing the elbow).
I too am more frustrated with FIFA than the referee in this particular call. The idea that something like this could go completely without sanction is simply unfathomable to me. I suppose I'm used to NFL, MLB and NBA where these things are reviewed and reacted upon after the fact all the time. I think the term exceptional, is a perfect description. FIFA needs to give the FA the latitude to handle this their way.
whitehound
26 Aug 2006, 03:44 AM
In the opinion of the referee.
Not really. There is a definition in the ATR.... talks about playing well beyond the necessary force and putting your opponant in danger of serious bodily harm. I guess it is our job to be familiar with this kind of stuff and not just freewheel with ITOOTR.:)
colins1993
26 Aug 2006, 08:53 AM
The FA has spoken....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_city/5288430.stm
USSF REF
26 Aug 2006, 09:48 AM
Not really. There is a definition in the ATR.... talks about playing well beyond the necessary force and putting your opponant in danger of serious bodily harm. I guess it is our job to be familiar with this kind of stuff and not just freewheel with ITOOTR.:)
Yeah, but determining whether or not the player is putting the opponent in danger of serious harm is a subjective decision of the referee which can only be made based on that referee's opinion of the incident.
The FA has spoken....
I agree that the FA had to do something, but I feel badly for this referee. He is to blame for not sending Thatcher off. Yet, I can't help but feel the referee didn't have a good angle of the incident and most likely didn't see the elbow and if he had a particularly poor angle he would have only been able to think this was a reckless challenege, considering the speed and location of the misconduct. On first viewing, I didn't even notice the elbow, it wasn't until the slowed down 2nd viewing on instant replay from a different angle that I was able to witness the full, horrible, magnitude of this offense.
So I feel badly for the Referee, but what else is the FA going to do?
Ref Flunkie
26 Aug 2006, 10:00 AM
Not really. There is a definition in the ATR.... talks about playing well beyond the necessary force and putting your opponant in danger of serious bodily harm. I guess it is our job to be familiar with this kind of stuff and not just freewheel with ITOOTR.:)
Aww come on, everyone else does it :). I agree with you, but as USSF REF said, it comes down to the referee to determine if serious harm will result from the force used. Thats why we get paid the big bucks!
whitehound
26 Aug 2006, 10:10 AM
Aww come on, everyone else does it :). I agree with you, but as USSF REF said, it comes down to the referee to determine if serious harm will result from the force used. Thats why we get paid the big bucks!
Of course you are both right about the interpretation of what these words mean. I am trying to point out that it is important to first KNOW what the words are and then apply on field situations and your own personal experiences to make that interpretation. We need to know the law....thats all. :)