Magath ditching the diamond midfield???

[eissman]

http://www.fcbayern.t-com.de/en/news/news/2006/08813.php?fcb_sid=c918053f822b89eae68b5fd1b1d0f980

Interesting read concerning the Dortmund match and the midfield formation. Since I did not see the match live or from a torrent file (yet, hint hint) I would love to hear from those who saw the match if they noticed this formation change at all. Please feel free to comment.

If Magath has in fact changed his tactics, I will be the first to say I am relieved that he is showing us he is capable of such a maneuver. I can only hope he is looking to further exploit his talent by adjust his tactics/formations in the future to accomodate said talent.

Well done Felix...

[Duncan Idaho]

I doubt that this will be more than a temporary solution. It did not work that good as many are implying. In fact Bayern stood devensively solid most of the time, what is not surprising with such a formation, though they produced some easy chances for Dortmund out off negligence, but the offense was most of the time quite uncreative and inactive - they stood far too deep in most of the second half.

I know that I suggested this kind of setup some time ago, but for a creative offense game with that setup we would have used either an "anarchist" like Ribery, that can do some unconventional stuff on the pitch, or some kind of ball artist like Ronaldinho or Kaka or at least some kind of strategist in the central midfield like Deco. Since none of the mentioned is available - though dos Santos might surprise us -, I'm opting for the usual 4-4-2 or playing with 5 guys in the midfield. But who knows what security freak Magath is thinking! :rolleyes:

[BMike86]

I doubt that this will be more than a temporary solution. It did not work that good as many are implying. In fact Bayern stood devensively solid most of the time, what is not surprising with such a formation, though they produced some easy chances for Dortmund out off negligence, but the offense was most of the time quite uncreative and inactive - they stood far too deep in most of the second half.

I know that I suggested this kind of setup some time ago, but for a creative offense game with that setup we would have used either an "anarchist" like Ribery, that can do some unconventional stuff on the pitch, or some kind of ball artist like Ronaldinho or Kaka or at least some kind of strategist in the central midfield like Deco. Since none of the mentioned is available - though dos Santos might surprise us -, I'm opting for the usual 4-4-2 or playing with 5 guys in the midfield. But who knows what security freak Magath is thinking! :rolleyes:

You nailed it on the head Duncan. We didn't convincingly beat Dortmund, the scoreline makes it seem to be. But Dortmund had more highlights than Bayern offensively just that Bayern finished. Schweinsteiger's goal seemed a bit soft like he mis-striked it but it was good placement so he scored. Kahn had a pretty good match and easily showed he's still got it. Dortmund should of scored like i already mentioned when Odonker crossed it late but Smolarek showed his inexperience and whiffed and it hit the back of his leg. I do think that if Bayern is to do anything they do need an unconventional or creative midfielder and we don't have that. I think Dos Santos could become a passing playmaker at best, but time will have to tell on that. Scholl sadly is old and won't make a full 90 because he could get the job done. Hargreaves I think would be the next closest with Schweinsteiger just behind him.

[ForeverRed]

The line up would be perfectly effective if there was a good attacking and creative midfielder in front of Owen and Ottl or Demi, whoever plays in that position.

Now that would mean one striker on top, and none of our strikers are good enough to play up front, they won't be ready for it anyways. It's a good idea to strengthen the midfield that way after losing Ballack because he really did a lot of work and made up lots of ground running all over the pitch. Problem is he has to make it up with two players instead of one and that takes away from the game which might work out in the Bundesliga but not a chance against bigger European clubs.....like Barca whom we'll be playing soon.

Kudos to Magath for actually changing, although I don't see him having much of a choice-any other variation would simply not work.

[eissman]

Thanks mates for the input. As I mentioned, I had yet to see the game. I can only imagine it was a typical Bayern "first game", and not impressive but simply one of surviving the first encounter. At this juncture we are usually flirting with a variety of lineups in the hopes of getting (a) everyone healthy or reenergized from a busy summer (WC06), (b) mixing and matching what groups of players will work and what won't on the pitch, and (c) finding our match fitness levels for all.

Hopefully I can view the match and give my own opinion on the matter. Til then, I will rely on your insights.

Cheers.

[herewego]

I actually like that "german NT" formation for Bayern, as I posted weeks ago. At least when recognizing the players Bayern has.

I mean, if there is no real playmaker in the roster, why play a system like the diamond, which needs a "10" behind the strikers?

And, if you have two 6ers of international quality in Micho and Owen, and a promising young one like Ottl, why don´t use them?

I see, comparing to the NT at the WC, that Micho can play the Frings role and Owen Ballack´s. Micho more defensive, Owen with his runs more offensive, but both interchanging occassionaly during the game. Whith Lahm, Schweini and Poldi we have the german left flank, with Sagnol we even have a better right wing back than the german team. What we not have, is a right winger of Schneider´s class, but until Deisler gets back on the pitch, one of Karimi or Hasan has to fill this hole as good as possible.

It worked for Germany and it´s an answer to the now more common 4-5-1 formations in international games. The 4-5-1 strengthens the midfield by losing one striker. You have to answer that because one DM in the centre couldn´t be enough against 5 midfielders. You can answer it by playing 4-5-1 yourself, or playing 3-5-2, which is a possibility for Bayern at the point when Ismael is fit again, or you can answer it with the 2 DM formation.

BTW: "Diamond midfield" in Germany is called "Raute", becaue Raute is the translation of the geometric "lozenge", the formation with 2 DM and 2 halfwingers in midfield is now often named "german formation" or "Trapez", which I think can be translated to "trapezoid system". I will use "trapezoid system" as long as no other designation has been established.

In the end, a coach has to decide, how he will react to tactical formations of the opponents, Magath especially has to find an answer to the 4 received goals against Chelsea and Milan in the two last CL campaigns. Both were won by dominating the game in the center of the midfield, where Bayerns diamond left a big hole.
To fix this problem, I think Bayern has three possibilities: the "trapezoid system", to close the midfield with two DMs, or playing with 5 midfielders too, either by losing one striker in 4-5-1, or losing one defender by 3-5-2.

As a standard formation, I would like the trapezoid, because we have at least 2 very good strikers in Roy and Poldi, none of them should be benched, and we have this 2 very good DMs in Micho and Owen.

The 3-5-2, with again Micho and Owen in the centre, Lahm and Willy on the flanks and Schweini behind the strikers could be another good option against teams with only one center striker.
At least for the big european games on foreign soil. With Lucio, DvB and Ismael we have the needed 3 CB for it.
But it could not be the standard formation, because we have no depth on the bench in the CB position for a long season, and actually, against the ordinary Bundesliga opposition from midfield to bottom of the table, such a more defensive formation is not necessary for a Bayern München.
But, "to mix concrete" as we germans say, against Milan in Meazza stadium would be better than to get netted 4 times.

[eissman]

Some outstanding points, HEREWEGO. Oh, and thanks for the German "lesson"... it is always good to know how the native tongue translates these formations, etc. I quite like the "Trapez" label... very telling.

I think this system is a fresh change and at least shows Magath is willing to make his lineup fluxuate with the talent at hand on the roster. That is very encouraging. I also feel your lineup inclusion of the 3-5-2 is the exact lineup I would use with this squad at present. I am assuming you would include Lahm and Sagnol as wide flank players that play just ahead of the Center backs but not quite too deep in attack (???). That would mean we need three center backs, with a replacement, which we have in Lucio, Van Buyton, Ismael, and Demichelis (replacement -- assuming Ottl could take the reigns in the middle alongside Hargreaves). I quite like the notion of letting Schweinsteiger loose behind the strikers. I think that is a place he will ultimately occupy in due time, plus he is our most "Scholl-esque" type player in the future.

Well stated mate! I quite enjoyed that read... :)

[BayernWake]

Agreed with eissman, herewego's post was very interesting. I do like the 3-5-2 with Lahm and Sagnol on the flanks. But what happens when Deisler comes back? The return of "die Raute"?

[Duncan Idaho]

Agreed with eissman, herewego's post was very interesting. I do like the 3-5-2 with Lahm and Sagnol on the flanks. But what happens when Deisler comes back? The return of "die Raute"?

not necessarily, a 3-5-2 with Deisler should look like

------ Schweini ----- Deisler -------

Lahm ---- Micho or Owen ---- Sagnol

and in a 4-4-2 with Raute Deisler either could played the right half position or taking over the 10, since we are experimenting this season anyway

[ForeverRed]

not necessarily, a 3-5-2 with Deisler should look like

------ Schweini ----- Deisler -------

Lahm ---- Micho or Owen ---- Sagnol

and in a 4-4-2 with Raute Deisler either could played the right half position or taking over the 10, since we are experimenting this season anyway

That could actually be a very very good position for Deisler to play...it is a bit more central and akin to his playmaker capabilities.

Micho and Owen could drop back as well to help out the CB's.

[BMike86]

I see, comparing to the NT at the WC, that Micho can play the Frings role and Owen Ballack´s. Micho more defensive, Owen with his runs more offensive, but both interchanging occassionaly during the game. Whith Lahm, Schweini and Poldi we have the german left flank, with Sagnol we even have a better right wing back than the german team. What we not have, is a right winger of Schneider´s class, but until Deisler gets back on the pitch, one of Karimi or Hasan has to fill this hole as good as possible.


what has happened to Karimi? has he faded into the darkness or somethin? he was healthy enough for the World Cup and didnt do very well. but i havent a drop of his name until just now. Is he just not cutting it or is he injured?

[Gregoriak]

Anyone thinking that when Pizarro is fit again, Podolski should withdraw to a left-sided midfield position? He does like to play a bit withdrawn after all.

In Bundesliga games, Bayern could do with only one DM and in a 3-5-2, Schweinsteiger (right footed) and Podolski (left footed) could play the part behind the two strikers:

---------------Pizarro-------Makaay

----------Podolski--------Schweinsteiger/Deisler

------Lahm----Demichelis/Hargreaves----Sagnol

----------Lucio-----van Buyten-----Ismael

[BMike86]

Anyone thinking that when Pizarro is fit again, Podolski should withdraw to a left-sided midfield position? He does like to play a bit withdrawn after all.

In Bundesliga games, Bayern could do with only one DM and in a 3-5-2, Schweinsteiger (right footed) and Podolski (left footed) could play the part behind the two strikers:

---------------Pizarro-------Makaay

----------Podolski--------Schweinsteiger/Deisler

------Lahm----Demichelis/Hargreaves----Sagnol

----------Lucio-----van Buyten-----Ismael

thats pretty solid. i like that, but some will disagree just because they think the whole German NT idea with Lahm/Schweinsteiger/Podolski all on the left.

[eissman]

Anyone thinking that when Pizarro is fit again, Podolski should withdraw to a left-sided midfield position? He does like to play a bit withdrawn after all.

In Bundesliga games, Bayern could do with only one DM and in a 3-5-2, Schweinsteiger (right footed) and Podolski (left footed) could play the part behind the two strikers:

---------------Pizarro-------Makaay

----------Podolski--------Schweinsteiger/Deisler

------Lahm----Demichelis/Hargreaves----Sagnol

----------Lucio-----van Buyten-----Ismael


-G-

What is up, brother? Long time no hear. Family business keeping you off the boards? ;) Good to hear from you.

I think you proposal of Podolski on the left side is interesting. It would play more into his strength and therfore allow for Schweinsteiger to play more central in behind the strikers. If this were the case, then I would most definitely like to see the 3-5-2 formation. Hitzfeld used a similar formation in the CLS 2001 campaign with Liza and Sagnol playing wide just ahead of the 3 backs, but not too deep in midfield. Secured numbers back, but opened up space to attack on the flanks. Quite successful.

As I stated, if Bayern were to do this, they would need some "insurance" at CB in case Lucio, Van Buyton, or Ismael got injured. They have that in Demichelis, and in Ottl, they have a replacement for Demichelis as well. So, in a round about way, I think I just validated my justification for this formation.

p.s. sorry Mods -- this likely should have been put in the "Tactics and Formations" thread.

[Dead Fingers]

p.s. sorry Mods -- this likely should have been put in the "Tactics and Formations" thread.

DING DING DING! :D

No worries

[BMike86]

I like this because our usual 3 centre backs are playing the back line. i know other members have mentioned similar formations to this before. i like this though because Van Buyten is our rock or our anchor in the center of the pitch in defense, and Ismael and Lucio are to his sides and those boys like to storm from time to time but not nearly as much as Sagnol or Lahm thus moving those two forward a little bit. If we are going to do anything this year it will be because of our defense and we need to look at it that way. I'd rather lose 0-0 in the CL and get knocked out by pk's than to score three goals but to lose 4-3 in a match. its still a loss yes i know, but those 4 goals given up look soo much worse in my eyes. also offensively it gives more of the pitch for Podolski to be creative, while freeing up a starting striker spot.

[ForeverRed]

It's certainly a good idea, and its been suggested before on these forums. It would free up a lot of players and allow for a much needed offensive flow.

Question is will magath do it? I sincerely doubt it.

[Gregoriak]

-G-

What is up, brother? Long time no hear. Family business keeping you off the boards? ;) Good to hear from you.


Hi Eric!

I'm currently focusing on this project (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391951) in the Germany forum. Most of the time reserved for BigSoccer is going into that at the moment.

BTW, I would have started the second "Bayern & Germany Games" thread ages ago but the two guys I need for that (one who got the DVDs and the other one for distributing) seem to be on vacations or something. I have to wait until I hear from them again.

[herewego]

We can forget the 3-5-2. Ismael just broke his leg in a training session.

Found no translation for "Schienbeinbruch". How do you translate "Schienbein", which is the big lower leg bone between knee and ankle?

[ForeverRed]

We can forget the 3-5-2. Ismael just broke his leg in a training session.

Found no translation for "Schienbeinbruch". How do you translate "Schienbein", which is the big lower leg bone between knee and ankle?

Shinbone.......

Thats gotta hurt