Position switches

[KozIsCul]

We haven't had one of these for a long time now. AFAIK, the last one of these was Lauren. I suppose you could count Flamini, but #1 it's not permanent, and #2 was forced because of injury.

I mention this because Reyes is still up in the air and we may or may not get Baptista in return as partial compensation. If he could play DM for us that would be a perfect fit. But supposedly he can't pass or tackle. Well can't somebody train him? He has more physical presence than anyone else on the team, and DM is understaffed.

[yossarian]

We haven't had one of these for a long time now. AFAIK, the last one of these was Lauren. I suppose you could count Flamini, but #1 it's not permanent, and #2 was forced because of injury.

I mention this because Reyes is still up in the air and we may or may not get Baptista in return as partial compensation. If he could play DM for us that would be a perfect fit. But supposedly he can't pass or tackle. Well can't somebody train him? He has more physical presence than anyone else on the team, and DM is understaffed.

Toure to CB was a bit of a position switch......seeing as how his first season with us he played all over the park but mostly in the midfield.

As for Baptista.....why do you feel he has more "physical presence" than anyone we have right now? Are you basing such a statement on his performances at Madrid or prior to his move to Madrid? Also, if he can't pass or tackle at this point.....is there much sense in trying to train him to do so? A little late for that don't you think?

I agree that DM is a position we need to bolster.....but I just don't think Baptista is the answer.

[red & wite army]

Wenger has always said that he focuses on what player are good at and makes them concentrate on that even more so I can't see him trying to make Reyes more defensive he supposedly can't tackle well.

[KozIsCul]

Toure to CB was a bit of a position switch......seeing as how his first season with us he played all over the park but mostly in the midfield.

As for Baptista.....why do you feel he has more "physical presence" than anyone we have right now? Are you basing such a statement on his performances at Madrid or prior to his move to Madrid? Also, if he can't pass or tackle at this point.....is there much sense in trying to train him to do so? A little late for that don't you think?


Mostly I am going by his reputation prior to Madrid but also because I see the lack of physical presence as a glaring weakness of the current Arsenal squad, and JAR as one of the worst culprits.

As far as this particular hypothetical transfer goes, I'd like to see us take a chance on Baptista, who might be a misfit, instead of JAR who we know damn well is a misfit.

But in general I just noticed that it seems that, amongst all the transfer talk in here, we've lost faith in our ability to maneuver players (assuming sufficient quality and character) around the pitch a little bit to best address the team's needs.

[yossarian]

Mostly I am going by his reputation prior to Madrid but also because I see the lack of physical presence as a glaring weakness of the current Arsenal squad, and JAR as one of the worst culprits.

As far as this particular hypothetical transfer goes, I'd like to see us take a chance on Baptista, who might be a misfit, instead of JAR who we know damn well is a misfit.

But in general I just noticed that it seems that, amongst all the transfer talk in here, we've lost faith in our ability to maneuver players (assuming sufficient quality and character) around the pitch a little bit to best address the team's needs.

I disagree with your assessment of Reyes and would hardly characterize him as a misfit. No, he has not had the breakout season that many (myself included) have hoped for. But he has not been a bad player for us and runs his arse off when he's on the pitch.

That aside....give us an example. Who amongst the current squad would be a good choice to move into a different position?

[ports485]

But supposedly he can't pass or tackle. Well can't somebody train him? He has more physical presence than anyone else on the team, and DM is understaffed.

Get someone who isn't a DM and teach him to be one, or get someone who actually is a DM?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :rolleyes:

[ToBeAGooner]

Seeing as how some of you place so much importance on the position of left back, lets move Thierry their to fill the massive void that Cole will leave.

[KozIsCul]

I disagree with your assessment of Reyes and would hardly characterize him as a misfit. No, he has not had the breakout season that many (myself included) have hoped for. But he has not been a bad player for us and runs his arse off when he's on the pitch.


He's worse than a bad player, he's a player whose presence on the team makes the whole team play worse.

Offhand, I can't think of a player on the current roster who should change positions, but if we have a young guy with talent and character, I think we should be as flexible as possible as far as positions go. For example until last year we had Quincy Owusu-Abiye until we sold him to Dynamo Moscow or whoever for 1M, an amount that doesn't help us a whole lot. Maybe there was nothing else to do, but I just recall watching him play that he ran like everybody else was standing still, and Arsenal is by reputation the fastest team in the League. I wish we could hear more often of a player like him successfully converting to LB or CM or somewhere where we can use him.

The last one that I recall was Lauren, and his case it was forced because his high transfer fee meant that we had to play him.

[yossarian]

He's worse than a bad player, he's a player whose presence on the team makes the whole team play worse.

Gross generalizations like this don't do you any good or allow people to take you very seriously. The squad played very well in both of the CL matches against Madrid and Reyes was a part of that. And that's just one example off the top of my head where he played well and helped the team.


Offhand, I can't think of a player on the current roster who should change positions, but if we have a young guy with talent and character, I think we should be as flexible as possible as far as positions go. For example until last year we had Quincy Owusu-Abiye until we sold him to Dynamo Moscow or whoever for 1M, an amount that doesn't help us a whole lot. Maybe there was nothing else to do, but I just recall watching him play that he ran like everybody else was standing still, and Arsenal is by reputation the fastest team in the League. I wish we could hear more often of a player like him successfully converting to LB or CM or somewhere where we can use him.

Quincy was fast.....but had little else going for him. He dribbled into blind alleys much more frequently than your whipping boy Reyes or Hleb and his finishing was not good at all. That being said, I would not have objected to keeping him around for another season or so to see if he improved....but his play hardly warranted giving him much first team action. Perhaps he could be converted into a back.....but as sub-par as his passing and vision were, I would see no reason to try him out as a CM.


The last one that I recall was Lauren, and his case it was forced because his high transfer fee meant that we had to play him.

We switched Toure more recently than Lauren. Prior to the 03/04 season, Toure had played mostly in the midfield.

[KozIsCul]

Gross generalizations like this don't do you any good or allow people to take you very seriously. The squad played very well in both of the CL matches against Madrid and Reyes was a part of that. And that's just one example off the top of my head where he played well and helped the team.


I dunno, it seems sort of obvious to me. We lost 11 League games last year. I don't think there's any way to get around that, Champions League Final or no.

Or consider one of the games we didn't lose, against Portsmouth in April. Really the key game of the season in my book. Could have, maybe even should have cost us a place in the CL this year. We should be up by three goals, instead we're only up one. Just a little sloppy defending on a set piece, and it's tied. We have a half hour to get the lead back, but of course it ends a draw. It was like a horror movie in slow motion. Even when we were ahead, the scoreline had 1-1 written all over it.

Now that particular disaster was not Reyes' fault (Adebayor has to take the fall for that one). But when the s##t hits the fan, you have to have players whose determination and force of will can change the course of the game. Through speed, skill, strength of character, guile, whatever it takes, the players have to take three points back with them to the team coach, and they have to know it, and show it.

JAR is not that player. In terms of changing the texture of a game by sheer determination, he might be the weakest player I've ever seen.

To be honest, I think much of this is not his fault. I don't think the Arsenal staff have ever coached him properly, and I also think the Aragones spat is a bad rap. But still, there's nothing that I've seen that leads me to believe that any of his issues are going to be rectified.

[yossarian]

I dunno, it seems sort of obvious to me. We lost 11 League games last year. I don't think there's any way to get around that, Champions League Final or no.

Or consider one of the games we didn't lose, against Portsmouth in April. Really the key game of the season in my book. Could have, maybe even should have cost us a place in the CL this year. We should be up by three goals, instead we're only up one. Just a little sloppy defending on a set piece, and it's tied. We have a half hour to get the lead back, but of course it ends a draw. It was like a horror movie in slow motion. Even when we were ahead, the scoreline had 1-1 written all over it.

Now that particular disaster was not Reyes' fault (Adebayor has to take the fall for that one). But when the s##t hits the fan, you have to have players whose determination and force of will can change the course of the game. Through speed, skill, strength of character, guile, whatever it takes, the players have to take three points back with them to the team coach, and they have to know it, and show it.

JAR is not that player. In terms of changing the texture of a game by sheer determination, he might be the weakest player I've ever seen.

To be honest, I think much of this is not his fault. I don't think the Arsenal staff have ever coached him properly, and I also think the Aragones spat is a bad rap. But still, there's nothing that I've seen that leads me to believe that any of his issues are going to be rectified.

Agreed that Reyes is not the type of player that will take charge of a match on his own and win it on his own......but that hardly equates to him being a bad player or one that makes the whole team worse. He certainly wasn't the sole or even the primary reason we lost 11 matches last season. And I certainly have seen anything from Baptista to suggest that he would be the type of player you're discussing.

Again, if Reyes really wants to play for Madrid and we can get good money for him to add some more CM experience then that's fine. If he remains with us, I won't wail or gnash my teeth over that either.

[KozIsCul]

Agreed that Reyes is not the type of player that will take charge of a match on his own and win it on his own......but that hardly equates to him being a bad player or one that makes the whole team worse. He certainly wasn't the sole or even the primary reason we lost 11 matches last season. And I certainly have seen anything from Baptista to suggest that he would be the type of player you're discussing.

Again, if Reyes really wants to play for Madrid and we can get good money for him to add some more CM experience then that's fine. If he remains with us, I won't wail or gnash my teeth over that either.

I guess then we agree more than we disagree then. As long as Le Boss understands the future of the team (at his positions) is with Rosicky, Hleb, Walcott, RVP, and Cesc and JAR can't be allowed to take playing time at their expense, unless and until he proves in training and on the pitch that he's earned it.

I don't know what to make of Baptista, really. But I believe there's a good chance that he might give Arsenal some dimensions that they have previously lacked. Something JAR definitely won't do.

[Cannon]

That aside....give us an example. Who amongst the current squad would be a good choice to move into a different position?I know this isn't central to this thread but I love questions like this. The guy I'd most like to see try a different position is Eboue. He would be a good rightmid. He already attacks more than most RBs and has above average passing skills. Eboue can run all day and has good pace. He has decent skills on the ball, the ability to win the ball, and an improving cross. He has also scored with a wicked long range shot. We've already seen him beat the other side's FBs to whip the ball across or cut it back to somebody like Hleb. I'd certainly rather see him at rmid than see Flamini or Cesc play there as Wenger has done in the past when injuries or bans took the regular rmids out.

I'm not saying that I'd like to break up the good pairing he has with Toure at the back and his growing understanding with Hleb but if the situation required a backup rmid Eboue should get a look. The depth at RB is going to be pretty good with Eboue, Lauren, Hoyte as the top 3 this season. Gilbert is on loan but if he comes back he looked pretty good too. Then you have guys like Djourou that have played well in limited time at RB. :cool:

[antifan]

I know this isn't central to this thread but I love questions like this. The guy I'd most like to see try a different position is Eboue. He would be a good rightmid. He already attacks more than most RBs and has above average passing skills. Eboue can run all day and has good pace. He has decent skills on the ball, the ability to win the ball, and an improving cross. He has also scored with a wicked long range shot. We've already seen him beat the other side's FBs to whip the ball across or cut it back to somebody like Hleb. I'd certainly rather see him at rmid than see Flamini or Cesc play there as Wenger has done in the past when injuries or bans took the regular rmids out.

I'm not saying that I'd like to break up the good pairing he has with Toure at the back and his growing understanding with Hleb but if the situation required a backup rmid Eboue should get a look. The depth at RB is going to be pretty good with Eboue, Lauren, Hoyte as the top 3 this season. Gilbert is on loan but if he comes back he looked pretty good too. Then you have guys like Djourou that have played well in limited time at RB. :cool:
Eboue got some games at RM last year before Lauren got injured, and he looked good. But since then he's blossomed at RB for club and country, so i can't see any point in moving him up to midfield, unless its an emergency.

[i404]

Cesc to GK :p

[akofman12345]

Cesc to GK :p

I dont know, Toure looked pretty good saving Rooney's point blank range shot. Maybe we should give him a chance.

[Miles Brasher]

I dunno, it seems sort of obvious to me. We lost 11 League games last year. I don't think there's any way to get around that, Champions League Final or no.

Or consider one of the games we didn't lose, against Portsmouth in April. Really the key game of the season in my book. Could have, maybe even should have cost us a place in the CL this year. We should be up by three goals, instead we're only up one. Just a little sloppy defending on a set piece, and it's tied. We have a half hour to get the lead back, but of course it ends a draw. It was like a horror movie in slow motion. Even when we were ahead, the scoreline had 1-1 written all over it.

Now that particular disaster was not Reyes' fault (Adebayor has to take the fall for that one). But when the s##t hits the fan, you have to have players whose determination and force of will can change the course of the game. Through speed, skill, strength of character, guile, whatever it takes, the players have to take three points back with them to the team coach, and they have to know it, and show it.

JAR is not that player. In terms of changing the texture of a game by sheer determination, he might be the weakest player I've ever seen.

To be honest, I think much of this is not his fault. I don't think the Arsenal staff have ever coached him properly, and I also think the Aragones spat is a bad rap. But still, there's nothing that I've seen that leads me to believe that any of his issues are going to be rectified.

LOL, I love this piece. Previously you'd argued that Reyes drags the team down, and start this as a defence of that argument, and end up persuading yourself that he's alright, it's someone elses fault and he's not to blame...

Nice!

[KozIsCul]

LOL, I love this piece. Previously you'd argued that Reyes drags the team down, and start this as a defence of that argument, and end up persuading yourself that he's alright, it's someone elses fault and he's not to blame...


uhhhh that's a big nugatory, Ghostrider.

To some extent, the causes of his problems aren't necessarily his fault, but he's the one who has to be responsible for the consequences of them.

In the game against Portsmouth and every other game that he's played for Arsenal, JAR lacks the character to turn a game in our favor through strength of will. In fact, if he does try to be more aggressive, he ends up running into Thierry Henry, and he knows he's not going to like the results of that. When the going is tough, JAR is going to look for a place to hide.

You know, actually most of this was pretty clear from the last few posts I wrote. I recommend you bone up on reading comprehension.

[Miles Brasher]

uhhhh that's a big nugatory, Ghostrider.

To some extent, the causes of his problems aren't necessarily his fault, but he's the one who has to be responsible for the consequences of them.


Why is he worse than any other player in the squad ?

In the game against Portsmouth and every other game that he's played for Arsenal, JAR lacks the character to turn a game in our favor through strength of will. In fact, if he does try to be more aggressive, he ends up running into Thierry Henry, and he knows he's not going to like the results of that. When the going is tough, JAR is going to look for a place to hide.

How exactly do you do that. In theory it sounds lovely. "Turn a game through strength of will" Please explain what this actually means. As you've singled out Reyes, also please explain how every other player who you haven't blamed manages to do it. Reyes works extremely hard for the team. I'd agree that Reyes hasn't done as well as he can or as well as we hoped, but he's certainly not a bad player.


You know, actually most of this was pretty clear from the last few posts I wrote. I recommend you bone up on reading comprehension.

Yeah:rolleyes: , but the post from you that I identified did nothing to prove that...

He's worse than a bad player, he's a player whose presence on the team makes the whole team play worse.

In fact you said this...

Now that particular disaster was not Reyes' fault (Adebayor has to take the fall for that one

and

To be honest, I think much of this is not his fault. I don't think the Arsenal staff have ever coached him properly, and I also think the Aragones spat is a bad rap.

Now, using that game as an example, why didn't the defence,through strength of will stop the equaliser ? Why didn't Adebayor win the game through strength of will, why is this an example to single Reyes out ?

Arsenal have no bad players in their squad. They have some great players, and some very good players and some good players. There is no-one who is worse than a bad player.



Apart from Song... (though I'm still hoping Ricks right on this one)

[gullaci(mvfc)]

Forgive me for not knowing the stat off the top of my head, but how many assists did Reyes have last season? I remember it being a fairly significant amount...but i may be wrong :). As i've always said with JAR, he's still young, players mature at different ages, guys like cesc are exceptional. And while it increasingly looks like he's not going to destroy teams in England he can be very dangerous, and i'd be happy if he stays. Oh ye of little faith...;)