A few questions from a player

[they have teeth]

I play goalkeeper collegiately, and I have a few queries. So if some of you guys would be kind of enough to answer them for me, I'd be eternally grateful. A lot of cards are handed out in my conference by incompetent refs, and I'd just like to clarify a few things.

1. In a match a penalty kick was awarded against my team, and during a PK I typically will bounce along the line moving side to side. The ref told me I could not move before the penalty was struck, and I was then given a yellow card for dissent for persistently telling him that I could move along the line as I pleased before the penalty was taken. If something like this happens again, what is the correct action for me to take?

2. What types of celebrations constitute a caution? For example, last season my teammate was cautioned for "shoe-shining" after a goal was scored, while in the same game after the opposition scored the player left the field of play and celebrated with the fans.

[Statesman]

1. In a match a penalty kick was awarded against my team, and during a PK I typically will bounce along the line moving side to side. The ref told me I could not move before the penalty was struck, and I was then given a yellow card for dissent for persistently telling him that I could move along the line as I pleased before the penalty was taken. If something like this happens again, what is the correct action for me to take?Although I haven't kept up with the NCAA rules, but in club soccer the keeper is allowed to move along the goal line provided he does not leave the line prior to the taking of the kick. As far as the correct action it's not OK to dissent the referee, even when he is wrong, and so a caution might be deserved. From a player perspective, I'd try getting in a few side-steps along the line anyway if that will help you and hope the ref wouldn't bother to take you up on it. If he does, stay still the next time and if a goal is scored and your team loses by a goal, appeal to the league. Either way, continually complaining won't help your cause.

2. What types of celebrations constitute a caution? For example, last season my teammate was cautioned for "shoe-shining" after a goal was scored, while in the same game after the opposition scored the player left the field of play and celebrated with the fans.There's no list of cautionable celebrations that I'm aware of, but players need to have a little decency and respect. Don't do anything offensive, taunt the other team or the team's fans, or take so long as to delay the game. I don't know what a "shoe-shining" is, but leaving the field briefly to celebrate with fans is common enough provided the player returns in a prompt fashion. Removing the shirt is explicitly prohibited now in club soccer as well -- I doubt that one applies to NCAA though.

[nonya]

Ok, as to question one. Yes the referee was incorrect, rule 14 sec.2 clearly allows goalies to move on the goal line as long as they do not move forward. Ok, so how do you handle it? I would simply (and nicely) ask the referee again, to clarify like this "Sir, are you telling me that I am not allowed to move across the goal line before the kick?" If he says yes, then you now have two options. The first is to do as he says, then complain to your coach after the game. The second is to walk out of the goal, the rule states that you need to have the opposing goal keeper on the goal line. Usually, the AR walks on to the field to take their position, if he looks experienced you could polietly tell him (by not making it look obvious about it) what the referee said and get further clarification. If the AR has courage he will correct the referee (which he is allowed to do in Rule 61e4), if not, then your screwed get in the goal and hope for the best. But at least if you do protest it, the AR will have heard what you have asked. It is doubtful that your protest would hold up, and I find it hard to believe that a NISOA official would not know that rule.

[Wreave]

You've already gotten good answers, at least on the PK thing, but since that's an easy one, I'll add that yes, you should be allowed to move laterally on the line. However, dissent is still a yellow card - even if you're right. You ask your question, you make your point, you deal with it and play on. If the referee enforces the same inaccuracy at both ends of the field, that's all you can ask for.

I disagree with walking out of the goal - that's a yellow for delaying the restart of play.

On the shoe-shining. My understanding is that a teammate of the goal-scorer gets down on one knee and pretends to shine the goal-scorer's shoes? The problem with that is that it's easily construed as unsporting - as rubbing the goal in the opponents' faces, especially as it occurs in the opponents' end of the field. The question is whether the action is celebratory and spontaneous, vs. taunting and/or choreographed. That's not the exact wording, but I'm remembering it from something. Of course, that's still USSF not NISOA (college), but the point is still the same.

Celebrating reasonably quickly with the fans? Totally cool for the vast majority of refs. Shoe-shining? Uncool, certainly for many if not most refs. That's one where ITOOTR (in the opinion of the referee) really comes into play. If the ref determines it to be mean-spirited, it's going to get a card.

P.S. Especially in a ref forum, you're not going to win a whole lot friends by starting off with a complaint about "incompetent refs". The vast majority of NISOA refs are very good. Mistakes are made by everyone, but you could spend a week browsing this forum and not find a single complaint by a ref about goals allowed by "incompetent goalkeepers". Do your job the best you can, and trust others to do the same. Sometimes - as in case #1 - you may recognize that someone else has failed to do the job as well as they should. So? They certainly recognize when you, or your teammates, have also failed. Yet when you're in our face complaining about not being allowed to move on the goal line, we're not responding, "Look, dude, the guy's lined up for the left corner, he's only 3 for 10 this season in the right corner and this would be the equalizing goal, why would you want do to anything other than go hard and high and either make the save or force him wide? Shut the f*ck up and toe the line!"

[they have teeth]

P.S. Especially in a ref forum, you're not going to win a whole lot friends by starting off with a complaint about "incompetent refs". The vast majority of NISOA refs are very good. Mistakes are made by everyone, but you could spend a week browsing this forum and not find a single complaint by a ref about goals allowed by "incompetent goalkeepers". Do your job the best you can, and trust others to do the same. Sometimes - as in case #1 - you may recognize that someone else has failed to do the job as well as they should. So? They certainly recognize when you, or your teammates, have also failed. Yet when you're in our face complaining about not being allowed to move on the goal line, we're not responding, "Look, dude, the guy's lined up for the left corner, he's only 3 for 10 this season in the right corner and this would be the equalizing goal, why would you want do to anything other than go hard and high and either make the save or force him wide? Shut the f*ck up and toe the line!"

i know that most refs are very good, really, most of them are. but you would really, and i mean really, be surprised at some of the stuff that goes on. it wasnt an insinuation that all refs are incompetent, just the ones that i routinely see in my conference.

[blech]

re #1, and as others have noted, dissent is dissent even if you're right, so ask your question (politely) and then leave it alone...for the time being. if your conference is such that you're likely to see the ref again, the best you can hope is to educate for the next game. if it's done in a non-confrontational way, you might get away with asking the ref about it after the game if you have a rulebook handy (i.e., i'm not challenging the call, but just curious for the next time, i thought it says "xyz"). obviously, any such conversation is still subject to the ref's willingness to listen to it, and many won't, but i've seen it handled well by some players and coaches. on that note, it mght be more effective for your coach to have the postgame conversation rather than you, again, not challenging the call, but seeking "clarification" for the next time and hopefully getting the ref to look at it again. if the ref isn't interested in a postgame conversation, respect that, but it might then be worth exploring whether a comment can be submitted to the league or the ref assignor, who might undertake the job of educating for the next time.

again, different refs feel differently about this. as long as it is not done in a threatening manner, i personally don't mind such a conversation after the game as i view as part of the learning and improving process. however, you may find that others feel quite differently and have to respect that.

[Rufusabc]

As a referee and a coach, I can see where our goalkeeper is frustrated by the refereeing. The refs who frequent this forum care about their craft, and by and large know the rules and apply them in the proper manner. BUT, and it is a big BUT. we know in our hearts that there are folks plying the ref trade who do get things wrong, and don't keep up with the latest info. I have come across them as a coach and I'm sure you have too. Drives me crazy, especially when it is pointed out to them, and they refuse to check into it.

R

[pasoccerdave]

What about asking this way - "Sir, I know that FIFA changed the rule several years ago that keepers are allowed to move laterally before a PK now. Are you saying that the NCAA rules still have not changed?".

I don't mean in a confrontational way, but simply by way of demonstrating that you are familiar with the rules, and to remind him that some things change. Refs still occassionally revert back to what they knew from years ago, and may have momentary brain lapses. There was a recent thread here about a ref who remembered when you used to require 3 players between you and the goal for offside.

Stuff happens. If the referee insists that his interpretation is correct, then you are stuck with that interpretation for the day. Follow up afterwards with the conference.

[refmike]

All above comments are correct but a point is missing.
If the ref is wrong but does not know it, you gain nothing by confronting him. Contact the league officials and they will either straghten you out or educate the ref. You cannot do this, beyond a polite question, but they can and they should if you are correct.

If you know the laws so well, become a referee. Good exercise, reasonable pay and more good refs mean the bad ones won't get game assignments.

[tmaker]

All above comments are correct but a point is missing.
If the ref is wrong but does not know it, you gain nothing by confronting him. Contact the league officials and they will either straghten you out or educate the ref. You cannot do this, beyond a polite question, but they can and they should if you are correct.

As a league official, I guarantee this will not happen in any reasonable amount of time. There are refs we know to be very bad indeed, yet who still referee for various reasons. I can think of at least four USSF Grade 6 refs who embarass me to watch or work with. Educating them is problematic at best, particularly when they are no longer new.

Besides, even if an assessor corrects the referee's faults, this brings no satisfaction to the pissed-off and correct goalkeeper, and ultimately what the players want, and supposedly our reason for being there in the first place, is a fair shake. And while it is true that the 'keeper gains nothing by dissent (because you're probably dealing with a referee who has too much ego anyway to admit he's wrong), that doesn't make the sense of injustice go away.

Let's extrapolate this a little. Say the referee awards a penalty kick for playing in a dangerous manner. The goalkeeper says no way, it's indirect. The ref cautions him for dissent, the penalty kick is taken and decides the outcome, etc, etc. Where's the justice in that? The goalkeeper here would have the distinct feeling of being doubly violated, and rightly so.

Protests in our leagues here are allowed ONLY because of a misapplication of the Laws. No matter how you look at it, this is a misapplication of the Law, and just because it's "not as serious as" awarding a penalty incorrectly or sending off a player incorrectly, it's still a screw-up that makes a game protestable. It does restrict the keeper unfairly. Upon reviewing it, I would uphold the protest, and probably send the recommendation that the game be replayed if a goal were scored through this mistake.

There is, in this entire thread, a hint of a snotty and condescending tone toward the real question posed. I do wish we referees would endeavor to rid our lives of this approach, as it's ineffective for gaining respect or appreciation for our craft from the non-referees out there, who actually do outnumber us. Believe it or not, sometimes they do know what they're talking about, and sometimes, they may even be able to help us if we listen.

If you know the laws so well, become a referee. Good exercise, reasonable pay and more good refs mean the bad ones won't get game assignments.

I love your idealism.

Beyond the politics involved just in getting into the NISOA fraternity, I could mention many cases where assignments are given for reasons that have nothing to do with merit. And this is hardly restricted to NISOA. NFHS around here has some of the worst refereeing I've ever captured on film, and USSF outnumbers them all in sheer quantity of badness. Bad refs will always get game assignments. Good refs will always have "bad days." I think players ought to be allowed to be annoyed by this as much as I am, provided they stay respectful, and I haven't seen any disrespect coming from our poster here, so why jump down his throat? On the contrary, I encourage players and coaches to express this sort of thing, because 1) I've often felt the same way, but more importantly 2) because it lets you know how players and coaches perceive certain things, and that can only be helpful.

[Doug the Ref]

The Missouri State High School Association (at least in the St. Louis area) allows for a coach to protest a decision on the 'application' of the laws/rules, not a judgement call. A coach has 10 minutes to produce the documentation in the NFHS rulebook.

This doesn't help in the NISOA or USSF land though.

You probably have a short window to argue/discuss/plead/ask for help from the AR/etc. Something short and sweet, but if it doesn't work, you are stuck with the ref's decision for that game. Hopefully, the ref and crew will discuss or search for confirmation after the game.

[refmike]

tmaker,

Your response is well spoken. No one can do anything about a bad call from the ref in charge of the game. We can deal with it later and hope the games in general get better. I will stand corrected that complaining to the league will do no good. I should have said the referee administration. If the local admin gets enough complaints about a ref, especially from other refs, they can and, I hope, will bring it to his attention so he can be re-educated. They could also not pass him on the assessments necessary to keep his grade and if necessary refuse to process his license renewal.

Now for your error. You said you can do nothing then correctly pointed out that these errors are protestable. If the error effected the outcome of the game, it should be protested and you can then have the game replayed. I assume that such a decision includes informing the referee of the consequences of his error.

Yes, some refs are ignorant of the newer laws and yes, some of us have bad days but consistant errors can and should be dealt with and not just grumbled about. And, yes, I am an idealist. I take that as a complement.

[BC_Ref]

On the shoe-shining. My understanding is that a teammate of the goal-scorer gets down on one knee and pretends to shine the goal-scorer's shoes? The problem with that is that it's easily construed as unsporting - as rubbing the goal in the opponents' faces, especially as it occurs in the opponents' end of the field. The question is whether the action is celebratory and spontaneous, vs. taunting and/or choreographed. That's not the exact wording, but I'm remembering it from something. Of course, that's still USSF not NISOA (college), but the point is still the same.


I'll echo the shoe-shining. The where you do it also matters to some extent. The yellow I handed out for one took place right in front of the opponent net right after the goal. A real troublespot. If it took place at the corner flag - I might have just publicly chewed the guy's ass off depending on the game's temper (less inflamatory if it is away from the opponents)

Another question for other refs - who do you caution on a shoe-shine if you need to caution anyone? The shiner or the shinee, or both? I tend to card the shiner just because they are the ones rubbing it in more.

[tmaker]

tmaker,

Your response is well spoken. No one can do anything about a bad call from the ref in charge of the game. We can deal with it later and hope the games in general get better. I will stand corrected that complaining to the league will do no good. I should have said the referee administration. If the local admin gets enough complaints about a ref, especially from other refs, they can and, I hope, will bring it to his attention so he can be re-educated. They could also not pass him on the assessments necessary to keep his grade and if necessary refuse to process his license renewal.

Let me tell you about this one State 1 ref I know... But of course, according to my RAH pp. 12-13, Policy 531-11-III-C, I can't. Let me just say I wish it worked that way.

Now for your error. You said you can do nothing then correctly pointed out that these errors are protestable. If the error effected the outcome of the game, it should be protested and you can then have the game replayed. I assume that such a decision includes informing the referee of the consequences of his error.

Yes, some refs are ignorant of the newer laws and yes, some of us have bad days but consistent errors can and should be dealt with and not just grumbled about. And, yes, I am an idealist. I take that as a compliment.

I didn't say you can do nothing. I said the keeper gains nothing from dissent in the context of the match. I meant, of course, that within the 90 minutes of the match, one can do nothing about bad refereeing decisions. It's clearly possible to do much after the referee leaves the field of play and its environs.

Somehow I remain an idealist as well, and it was certainly meant to be a compliment, if a bit off-the-cuff. But my idealism runs smack up against the harsh practicalities of being a "soccer sucker" as I am. I am not hard on refs who make a mistake, provided they own up to it at some point, rather than give political denial whenever confronted with their errors. Goodness knows I've made my screw-ups, and I look forward to making many more--but at least I'm going to try to make different mistakes, and try to own up to them when they happen. Thus a certain humility prevents me from flipping my lid whenever players, coaches and parents make mistakes, or worse still, actually correct my errors. I just wish other referees I know were quite as gracious; we all would avoid such problems as our goalkeeper here is suffering.

The number one complaint coaches we surveyed level against referees is that they don't know the rules. While part of this is because coaches themselves do not, in fact, know the rules...the rest is actually truth. Partly it comes from juggling five or six different sets of rules- and law-books where there are annoying differences. Partly it's because we all have brain eclipses where everything just goes blank. Partly it's because of pure referee ignorance and failure to keep up--how many referees in this summer tournament season, for instance, have implemented the latest AR mechanics from the memorandum?

This would seem to fall into the latter.

And I'm stunned how many people are so strict against goal celebrations. Common sense, guys. Is it actually that inflammatory? Does it really delay the kick-off that much? How unsporting is it, really?

[billf]

As far a question one, even when the ref is wrong he's still right. Unfortunately, that means you should keep the lips sealed. You are allowed to move on the line however. This is something that should be refered to the conference so the referee is taught something he should already know.

Two is trickier. I think its possible for you to get an overly officious NISOA type to show cards in both cases. I don't think I'd do it but the referee probably thought the shoe-shining was taunting. This is going to be totally up to the referee's judgement so there's no absolute wrong or right here.

[HoldenMan]

If something like that happens again then the only thing you can do is shut up and accept the referee's decision.

Even when the referee's wrong, he's right. Remember that ;-)

But yes, you are correct....although some may take it as trying to put the attacker off....personally I think this depends on how it's done, but generally yes, side to side movement is allowed.

Goal celebrations? Lifting the shirt over your head is one. Jumping or climbing on perimeter fencing is another mandatory caution (according to the LOTG - USA doesn't follow the LOTG, so it may not apply in the US). Aside from that, anything which is basically unsporting...riling up the spectators, that sort of thing. Also if it's delaying the restart of play (though you'd expect a verbal 'get on with it!' first). I can't see why shoe shining would earn a caution...

A good example of taunting is running past the opposition spectators pointing at or kissing your club badge on your shirt. Could also just be going out of your way to cheer in front of the spectators, anything like that...

Running off the field is fine (though most officials will want to get you back on the field ASAP. We don't like players leaving the field to celebrate, but we're told it's allowed) - but celebrating with the fans is starting to get borderline.

[billf]

Holden, the LOTG do apply in the US so long as the competition falls under the USSF's umbrella. This covers most of the games I work in fact. Unfortunately College and High School's have organized under separate organizations and make their own rules. Both College and High Schools offer a lot of games to work and pretty good pay, actually college pay is outstanding, so these two disciplines are attractive tp many referees.

[refmike]

USA doesn't follow the LOTG, so it may not apply in the US.
HoldenMan, you hurt me to the quick! We may not interpret the LOTG the same as you do but we follow them as best we can. Remember that before the IFAB gave specific interpretations of offside position, you Aussies allowed daylight between attacker and defender before calling offside. The US ATR is approved by FIFA before it is published and most of the interpretations in recent years agreed more with the US position than the rest of the world. About the only place I know that we do not follow the LOTG is that for youth games, sleeveless shirts are allowed.

[HoldenMan]

Refmike - we haven't allowed daylight since god knows when, if ever!

What I was referring to is that you have a more specific document that you have to follow as law.

Furthmore, the bit about climbing on fences is in the additional instructions, so I don't know if that's incorporated into the ATR. That's what I was trying to say :-)

[Statesman]

ATR is not law, it's advice. Hence the name. It's no different than any other federation publishing guidance outside the FIFA documents, it's just more comprehensive than most. Nothing in the ATR is contradictory to the LOTG or different to what FIFA instructs, though.