"He's Good Enough for CONCACAF, But . . . ."

[Shackleton]

When discussing potential and actual USMNT players, I frequently see people post something like this, "he's good enough for CONCACAF, but doesn't belong anywhere near the WC." Or, "he's fine by MLS standards, but not international quality." The corollary is that a player who may not be doing as well in MLS is better suited for such top-level competition. This has never made much sense to me, as I'd expect, between two players in the same league, that the one who is doing better in the league will also do better internationally.

Here's my question: What are the qualities that makes someone relatively good for MLS/CONCACAF, but not better competition and vice versa? In other words, what traits or abilities makes one player more suited to better competition, while another, who is just as good or better than the first against lesser competition, is not? Or, is whether someone can step up their game against better competition not predictable by looking at certain traits or abilities, and the best predictor is simply level of production against lesser competition?

To be clear, I totally understand that MLS is not as good as EPL and Panama is not as good as Italy. Thus, when great MLS players become good CONCACAF players and mediocre WC players, that's just to be expected. What I don't get is why good/average MLS players should ever be expected to be great/good international players.

[Adam Zebrowski]

add mexico to the list of quality sides NOT to consider in the concacaf debate..

one issue is the speed of play, it's the mental aspect of things happening faster at a higher level, when in concacaf you have more time to play around with...

I also think the latin style, ro finesse game is a style usa can do well against...

but as it gets into a more physical style, usa has problems adjusting, even jamaica physical approach gives usa more trouble...

i think those two points are the main items i'd nominate as reasons for being good enough for concacaf but not quite ready for...

[GONATS]

This is a FANTASTIC thread and one I have been wondering the answer to for a long time. I am interested to see why people think that guys like Rolfe and Johnson are going to be very good internationally when they are only better than average players in the MLS.

[drace768]

While there are many things that will contribute to this, IMO speed and quickness are the biggest answer. At the top international level almost everyone has speed and quickness and these are attributes that cannot be taught or worked on significantly. Either you are born with speed and quickness or you are not. In MLS and against lower level CONCACAF foes, lack of speed and quickness will not be exposed and can be compensated for, however, at the higher levels this becomes much harder. Additionally, someone who has speed and quickness, but is only average MLS player, might be able to be developed into high level international player. A great example of this is Marvell Wynne. He is still raw, but even in his time in MLS you have seen his game develop. While there are probably a few RB's who are better in MLS right now, none of them have Marvell's potential on the international level because they do not have his speed. While this is not the only answer, I believe it is the biggest contributor.

[ugaaccountant]

Speed of play. Watch the studs in college and then see who does well in MLS. Garey was great in college and is doing nothing right now in MLS. Jacob Peterson was a pretty average player for Indiana and has played pretty well in MLS. Or look at the careers of Ante Razov and Jason Kreis, great MLS scorers, painfully below average for the US.

[macheath]

Speed of play. Watch the studs in college and then see who does well in MLS. Garey was great in college and is doing nothing right now in MLS. Jacob Peterson was a pretty average player for Indiana and has played pretty well in MLS. Or look at the careers of Ante Razov and Jason Kreis, great MLS scorers, painfully below average for the US.

Roy Lassiter and Twellman can be added to that list of strikers. On the front line is where it shows up most dramatically; scoring goals is damn hard, and that's where the gap between MLS/CONCACAF and Europe/World Cup shows up most dramatically, and where our biggest weaknesses are.

[BronzeArt]

Common sense would seem to dictate that the best players in MLS should get a callup for the National side. The best in the MLS should be on the team. And if a player is not producing well for MLS, they should most certainly NOT be on the National team.

A perfect example of this would be the first USA Olympic 'dream team.' (When was that- mid-eighties?) The US picked the best players in the US, and they beat all comers in the Olympics.

It would make sense to take the MLS best forwards, best mids, and best defenders, and have a bang-up team.

However, success in the MLS level-- even outstanding success, high goal-scoring, etc.-- does not necessarily translate into success for the national team.

I think drace's point of speed being a major factor is very true, with Marvell Wynne as a perfect example.

There is also speed of thought and reaction time. As Freddy very visibly discovered against Chelsea the other day, you just don't have much time at higher levels. Play moves very quickly, and quick acquisition of the big picture is important. Which may be why Eskandarian, who thrives at his current level, has never made a step up.

Another factor is the players already on the field. Remember that MLS players are largely filling in gaps around international players, and the coach needs to choose players to complement the strengths he already has on the field. Not to open a can of worms, but as an example, would Twellman, arguably better than Wolff, have been paired as McBride's strike partner? Unlikely.

Thanks for starting this thread, Shackleton. I look forward to seeing the replies.

[Zoidberg]

A perfect example of this would be the first USA Olympic 'dream team.' (When was that- mid-eighties?) The US picked the best players in the US, and they beat all comers in the Olympics.



Gotta tell ya. I was around then and I don't know what you are talking about.

Are you talking about Team America at the end of the NASL reign?

[drace768]

Gotta tell ya. I was around then and I don't know what you are talking about.

Are you talking about Team America at the end of the NASL reign?
I think he is talking basketball... Jodan, Bird, Magic, etc.

[russ]

One vote here for a sound first touch-or at least a competent one.

[Karras]

So, by what is being said so far, speed (including speed of though/reaction time) isn't as helpful in MLS as it is in international play? That's the only way these statements make sense. Generally, some factor or set of factors must be less helpful in MLS than in international play. COnversely, it might also be true that some factors are more helpful in MLS than in international play.

It's tough to wrap my mind around how that is true, although I don't deny that it seems to be the case that some players may excel in MLS but not be so hot against top international competition.

It just seems like if something is helpful in international play, it will be just as helpful in MLS and vice versa.

[Zoidberg]

I think he is talking basketball... Jodan, Bird, Magic, etc.


OK. I was "zoned" in to soccer.

[drace768]

So, by what is being said so far, speed (including speed of though/reaction time) isn't as helpful in MLS as it is in international play? That's the only way these statements make sense. Generally, some factor or set of factors must be less helpful in MLS than in international play. COnversely, it might also be true that some factors are more helpful in MLS than in international play.

It's tough to wrap my mind around how that is true, although I don't deny that it seems to be the case that some players may excel in MLS but not be so hot against top international competition.

It just seems like if something is helpful in international play, it will be just as helpful in MLS and vice versa.
Lack of speed/quickness/speed of thought can be compensated for by superior power, hustle, passing/shooting accuracy, ball handling, etc. at the MLS level, however, at the highest level, where most everyone has a fully developed set of skills, the ability to compensate with other strengths become harder if not impossible.

If you have speed/quickness/speed of thought, things such as power, hustle, passing/shooting accuracy, ball handling, etc. can be worked on to allow a player to compete at a higher level. It does not always happen, but at least it is possible. If speed is missing: "you can't coach in what god left out".

[nobody]

I think it occasionally happens that a guy who's not doing as well as onother in a lesser league may play bettrer up a level, but that's usually just if he fits a role the team needs.

Maybe player x is a better overall player, but player x is a center back, of which we've got plenty, while player y is a wide right midfielder, something we lack.

I think the speed thing gets made too much of. I realize the absolute top players are fast, strong, smart and skillful, but since we're nowhere near fielding a team with every spot help by such a player, maybe we need to be a little more open to letting players who have succeeded against similar competition get a few more shots rather than simply discarding them in favor of someone faster who can't seem to put the rest together.

[drace768]

I think it occasionally happens that a guy who's not doing as well as onother in a lesser league may play bettrer up a level, but that's usually just if he fits a role the team needs.

Maybe player x is a better overall player, but player x is a center back, of which we've got plenty, while player y is a wide right midfielder, something we lack.

I think the speed thing gets made too much of. I realize the absolute top players are fast, strong, smart and skillful, but since we're nowhere near fielding a team with every spot help by such a player, maybe we need to be a little more open to letting players who have succeeded against similar competition get a few more shots rather than simply discarding them in favor of someone faster who can't seem to put the rest together.
I agree somewhat. Speed is relative to position, speed to a Center Back is not as important as it is to a wide player. However, each position probably has a minimal allowable speed at the highest international level. I don't think we should pass on people who can help us, just because they will never have the highest level of speed, but should recognize the priority of our development efforts should be focused on players with the requisite speed. Let's say Todd Dunivant was a righty instead of a lefty. While Dunivant is a good player and will certainly play a role for our national team over the next 4 years, he does not have the speed that a Marvell Wynne brings to the table. Right now Dunivant is the better outside back, but Marvell Wynne has the greater potential to develop into a top level international player. For this reason USMNT should focus more development opportunities for Wynne than Dunivant. Of course this is a hypothetical because Dunivant is a lefty, but I thought it would best illustrtate the point.

[drace768]

I agree somewhat. Speed is relative to position, speed to a Center Back is not as important as it is to a wide player. However, each position probably has a minimal allowable speed at the highest international level. I don't think we should pass on people who can help us, just because they will never have the highest level of speed, but should recognize the priority of our development efforts should be focused on players with the requisite speed. Let's say Todd Dunivant was a righty instead of a lefty. While Dunivant is a good player and will certainly play a role for our national team over the next 4 years, he does not have the speed that a Marvell Wynne brings to the table. Right now Dunivant is the better outside back, but Marvell Wynne has the greater potential to develop into a top level international player. For this reason USMNT should focus more development opportunities for Wynne than Dunivant. Of course this is a hypothetical because Dunivant is a lefty, but I thought it would best illustrtate the point.
Actually a better correlation would be Heath Pearce vs. Todd Dunivant since they are both lefties. If Dunivant lacks the minimal speed to be a top level international player than development efforts should be focused on Pearce, who clearly does. It does not mean you never call up Dunivant, just that Pearce should be more of the focus. Of course, I don't know that Dunivant lacks the speed and that is the tricky part, to properly judge the minimal level of speed necessary for each position.

[macheath]

One vote here for a sound first touch-or at least a competent one.

Yup. Which is what most of our forwards lack. You can get away with it in MLS and non-Mexico CONCACAF, but move up, and you can't.

[drace768]

Yup. Which is what most of our forwards lack. You can get away with it in MLS and non-Mexico CONCACAF, but move up, and you can't.
Yes, but first touch is something that can be worked on to improve its quality. Speed of thought and motion allows that good first touch to be used much more effectively. McBride's touch steadily progressed over the years and that is what has allowed him to have relative success in the EPL, while six or seven years ago he might not have succeeded. However, McBride would never be a great forward in the EPL because he does not have the speed/quickness to exploit it.

[Shackleton]

I agree somewhat. Speed is relative to position, speed to a Center Back is not as important as it is to a wide player. However, each position probably has a minimal allowable speed at the highest international level. I don't think we should pass on people who can help us, just because they will never have the highest level of speed, but should recognize the priority of our development efforts should be focused on players with the requisite speed. Let's say Todd Dunivant was a righty instead of a lefty. While Dunivant is a good player and will certainly play a role for our national team over the next 4 years, he does not have the speed that a Marvell Wynne brings to the table. Right now Dunivant is the better outside back, but Marvell Wynne has the greater potential to develop into a top level international player. For this reason USMNT should focus more development opportunities for Wynne than Dunivant. Of course this is a hypothetical because Dunivant is a lefty, but I thought it would best illustrtate the point.

I understand what you're saying about potential versus current ability, and that some qualities (like speed) give one guy (Wynne) a much greater upside than someone who may currently be a better player (Dunivant). And, thus, it may be better for the national team to focus on the guy with greater potential. I don't necessarily disagree with any of this.

But, it is different than what I'm asking about. I'm talking about comparing players on current ability/production. Common sense tells me that one who's currently better against lesser competition will also be relatively better against better competition. But, emperically, that does not always seem to be the case. So, perhaps there are certain skills/traits that are relatively more important for the international game than MLS. If so, what are they?

Appreciate all the input so far.

[nobody]

but Marvell Wynne has the greater potential to develop into a top level international player.

And this is where the problem lies. His potential is based on athletic ability, but he may never develop the soccer skills. He might, but if he's lacking in skills or tactical awareness he may well always be lacking in those areas. If his game doesn't catch up to his body, far from a guarentee, we may be better off with the guy who doesn't have his athletic traits, but can actually play soccer.