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menominee
02 Aug 2006, 10:57 AM
I only got into watching football during the 2002 world cup, though I played it in college and high school. 2002 really teased my interest in watching the game, and of the things that shocked me most was the gross bias for the Korean team during that first world cup.

When I later watched the 2006 world cup, I half expected tons of grossly favorable/biased calls for Germany. Instead, it seemed like the officials went completely the other direction in trying to get Germany out of the tournament. But I'll get to 2006 in a bit. After 2006 world cup, I was majorly "jonesing" for more world cup football action, and a guy at my local bar here owns a collection of essentially every world cup quarter/semi/final matches that I've been borrowing to feed my "addiction". And I noticed that Germany in particular has had so many very poor calls go against them in the world cup. I'll list what I mean:

1966 finals: I had heard about this long before seeing it, as it's one of the more historical bad calls throughout world cup history. You know the deal England hits the woodwork and the ball bounces down near the line, the ref asks the line official if it went across the line and he affirms that it did, even though it's well known today it never did. It's the decisive goal in the match. From an article I read recently from the BBC, apparently several of the Englishmen playing in the game later came clean about the incident in support of the German's claims that the ball didn't go across the line. Very classy of them.

1970 semifinals: Germany(3) versus Italy(4). Early on in this game you can see an extremely dubious and dangerous tackle on Beckenbauer that perhaps should have been an ejection. If I were a betting man, it looked like the Italians were trying to put him out of commission. They almost succeeded later on with another vicious tackle that occurred just on or just inside the penalty area. No sending off and no penalty kick was awarded, despite at the very least "part of the foul" was occurring in the penalty area. Beckenbauer is seriously injured but has to play on because they have no subs left. Another incident in this game involved a deflected ball that zipped across the Italians' goal mouth. Gerd Muller rushes in to put the ball away but he gets pushed off his line by a tackle from the goal keeper. The goal keeper does not even touch the ball, only bumps off Muller, which, as far as I know, this should have been a penalty kick for Germany. No such luck.

1986 finals: Argentina(3)- Germany (2) in the 23rd or so minute, an Argentine has the ball knocked out from under him, but instead of fighting for ball rolling away from him, he turns and takes an obvious dive. Argentina converts the set piece and that is the one decisive goal they needed to win. Again, another decisive goal. (I'd call these two teams about equal now after the Klinsmann "equalizer" 4 years later)

1982 semifinals: France(3)-Germany(3)
Two major incidents, including Platini dive that leading to score, and what looks like a completely onside goal for Germany ruled as offside. Germany does win this one, however.

1982 finals: Italy(3) Germany(1). One of the most ridiculous dives I've ever seen occurred in the penalty box, and Italy is awarded a PK. And then one fo the goals scored later on for Italy was actually offside, though I can't completely blame the refs on that one, as we know it's not always easy to see offsides in "real time"; however, after the first ridiculous penalty and the offside goal, it seemed as if the officials/luck had declared Italy the winner already.


1990 quarter finals: Netherlands(1) - Germany(2).
Rijkaard delivers a very late and very questionable tackle on Voller. Then, he is seen spitting, at two different instances, spitting on Voller twice. By some bizarre logic, though, Rijkaard AND Voller get sent off, ridiculous by any measure. Germany wins this one, however.

On to Germany's bid for 2006, which should be fresh on peoples minds. This is what lead me to questioning FIFA's con job of Germany in the past, here's what tipped me off:

In Germany's first match against Costa Rica, there are two goals made by Costa Rica that were offside. One was clearly offside and the other was just a bit offside. Allowing one of the goals is forgivable error, but allowing both seemed to smell very fishy. So much for home field advantage.

Then Germany proceeds without much incident, though they do get a Swede sent off for holding which was a debatable call, but it seemed Germany had pretty much already sealed that game up in the first 15 minutes.

Then the incident in the Argentina game. A couple of poor sport Argentine players attack a couple of the German players. The broadcast in the US don't show much of the actual perpetrators, though Heinze is clearly seen swinging punches at German players. Later on videos show what actually happened, with three players being implicated and having actions taken against them: Frings, Cufre, and Rodriguez being indicated as the "major perpatrators"

All the "punches" to me seemed to be more like "nannyslaps" and nothing serious, from both frings and the Argentines that actually took swings. The only really serious attack was what started it all. Metsecker was laying on the ground after the victory exhausted and Cufre ran up and stomped on his nuts. IMO, they should have either just punished Cufre severely or punished all those involved. However, from the additional videos there are at least 3-4 Argentines seen swing/kicking, again nothing too serious, so if FIFA was going to go after Frings they should have went after the rest too, particularly Heinze who was clearly seen in all the original feeds as wildly taking swings at people. Oh, and this here also did not result in any punishment either for Argentina, when they must have obviously had the video tape(everyone saw this in the USA feed, that's for sure)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTmENd0JyAU&search=klose%20slap

No punishment? Again, it's a nancyslap, but it was clear that FIFA really approached this whole game investigation with a heavy bias against Germany. As a side note, Cruz, the guy Frings hit, says he wasn't even punched at all. And he's right, he was nancyslapped. Heh.

Then we come to the Italy game. In the early portion of this game, there is a header cross in the penalty box that is batted down by an Italian defender's elbow. It does not really look intentional at all, but my knowledge of the rules is that intention does not matter, only if the player/team was advantage by the handball. Well, this was a two on one break away that could have easily been a score and the handball occurred in the penalty box. No call, though. Then, around the 80th minute or so, a foul is committed well within the Italian penalty area, which should have resulted in a penalty kick, but for some odd reason the ref puts it several feet out of the penalty box and awards a free kick instead of a penalty? I'm still at a loss for what the heck was going on there.

Are there any other countries that have a history of bad luck or outright bias or a lot of "favorable" ones? I'm particularly curious about the USSR, because apparently they have had some excellent teams but have rarely got far into the World Cup, and after seeing Germany's seemingly biased treatment over the World Cup years, it makes me wonder if they got something similar?

Edit: I fixed a year, and want to add that I'm not sure what the old offside rule(s) was.

nicephoras
02 Aug 2006, 11:18 AM
1982 semifinals: France(3)-Germany(3)
Two major incidents, including Platini dive that leading to score, and what looks like a completely onside goal for Germany ruled as offside. Germany does win this one, however.

Yeah, germany were really robbed in this game. :rolleyes:

menominee
02 Aug 2006, 11:21 AM
Yeah, germany were really robbed in this game. :rolleyes:

The score should have been Germany (4) - France(2).

jerrito
02 Aug 2006, 11:22 AM
Yeah, germany were really robbed in this game. :rolleyes:

Yup. I believe that's what they call revisionist history.


:eek:

jerrito
02 Aug 2006, 11:23 AM
The score should have been Germany (4) - France(2).

But what if Schumacher had been red carded, as many people say he should have been (though others disagree)? My point is that most often, bad calls go both ways.:)

nicephoras
02 Aug 2006, 11:25 AM
The score should have been Germany (4) - France(2).

Schumacher should have been sent off for his horror challenge and shouldn't have been around to take penalties.

nicephoras
02 Aug 2006, 11:26 AM
But what if Schumacher had been red carded, as many people say he should have been (though others disagree)?

No one who has an ounce of sanity disagrees with Schumacher's red. Its blatantly obvious.

The notion that Germany has somehow been "cheated" over the course of world cups is absolutely preposterous.

menominee
02 Aug 2006, 11:27 AM
But what if Schumacher had been red carded, as many people say he should have been (though others disagree)? My point is that most often, bad calls go both ways.:)

Was that the goal keeper-head on collision thing? Yes, that was very nasty. He should have been at least yellow carded and possibly red carded, but yes, I agree, at a minimum carded. Did they have yellows then?

menominee
02 Aug 2006, 11:29 AM
No one who has an ounce of sanity disagrees with Schumacher's red. Its blatantly obvious.

The notion that Germany has somehow been "cheated" over the course of world cups is absolutely preposterous.


Excuse me? I think you haven't watched much of the world cups if you believe that nonsense. No country has been more cheated, not even close. I just recently watched 80% of every final/seminal/quarter final in the last 40-50 years in the last few weeks.

Ledfoot
02 Aug 2006, 11:37 AM
1998 qualifying game (how Germany made the WC and Portugal Stayed home)

Game being played in Germany, Portugal winning 1-0 (and qualified), Germany out.

About 20 minutes to go, Rui Costa is being substituted, and gets a yellow card (2nd yellow of the game for him and a red) for walking too slow (he wasn't even walking that slow). His sub can't come into the game. Now, this is a very common thing for a player to do in these circumstances and we see it game in, game out. Some refs will just add some more seconds to the clock, others might show a card. In this case the ref was very generous towards GErmany.

Germany pile on the pressure with the one man advantage and tie the game. Germany goes to the WC, Portugal doesn't.

So, you see that Germany also gets a lucky break once in a while.

I might be off with some of the facts but it was a while ago and I don't remeber it very well.

menominee
02 Aug 2006, 11:53 AM
1998 qualifying game



Pretty small potatoes. And can neither confirm or deny anything you say because I haven't seen it. Portugal's antics over the world cups have not been very "good", to say the least, and I have plenty of reason to doubt your version, especially with your little narrative excuse(Oh, gosh everyone walks slow!). Last I checked, purposeful time wasting is punishable by a yellow.

nicephoras
02 Aug 2006, 11:59 AM
Great, more trolling. How nice.

Ledfoot
02 Aug 2006, 12:02 PM
Sorry for trolling, now get back to your discussion on how Gemany always get the tough breaks.

menominee
02 Aug 2006, 12:02 PM
Great, more trolling. How nice.

Huh? You are the guy that comes in here saying all sorts of nonsense and then does not defend their nonsense one bit? an insinuating people are insane?

poorvi
02 Aug 2006, 12:05 PM
I only got into watching football during the 2002 world cup, though I played it in college and high school. 2002 really teased my interest in watching the game, and of the things that shocked me most was the gross bias for the Korean team during that first world cup.

When I later watched the 2006 world cup, I half expected tons of grossly favorable/biased calls for Germany. Instead, it seemed like the officials went completely the other direction in trying to get Germany out of the tournament. But I'll get to 2006 in a bit. After 2006 world cup, I was majorly "jonesing" for more world cup football action, and a guy at my local bar here owns a collection of essentially every world cup quarter/semi/final matches that I've been borrowing to feed my "addiction". And I noticed that Germany in particular has had so many very poor calls go against them in the world cup. I'll list what I mean:

1966 finals: I had heard about this long before seeing it, as it's one of the more historical bad calls throughout world cup history. You know the deal England hits the woodwork and the ball bounces down near the line, the ref asks the line official if it went across the line and he affirms that it did, even though it's well known today it never did. It's the decisive goal in the match. From an article I read recently from the BBC, apparently several of the Englishmen playing in the game later came clean about the incident in support of the German's claims that the ball didn't go across the line. Very classy of them.

1970 semifinals: Germany(3) versus Italy(4). Early on in this game you can see an extremely dubious and dangerous tackle on Beckenbauer that perhaps should have been an ejection. If I were a betting man, it looked like the Italians were trying to put him out of commission. They almost succeeded later on with another vicious tackle that occurred just on or just inside the penalty area. No sending off and no penalty kick was awarded, despite at the very least "part of the foul" was occurring in the penalty area. Beckenbauer is seriously injured but has to play on because they have no subs left. Another incident in this game involved a deflected ball that zipped across the Italians' goal mouth. Gerd Muller rushes in to put the ball away but he gets pushed off his line by a tackle from the goal keeper. The goal keeper does not even touch the ball, only bumps off Muller, which, as far as I know, this should have been a penalty kick for Germany. No such luck.

1986 finals: Argentina(3)- Germany (2) in the 23rd or so minute, an Argentine has the ball knocked out from under him, but instead of fighting for ball rolling away from him, he turns and takes an obvious dive. Argentina converts the set piece and that is the one decisive goal they needed to win. Again, another decisive goal. (I'd call these two teams about equal now after the Klinsmann "equalizer" 4 years later)

1982 semifinals: France(3)-Germany(3)
Two major incidents, including Platini dive that leading to score, and what looks like a completely onside goal for Germany ruled as offside. Germany does win this one, however.

1982 finals: Italy(3) Germany(1). One of the most ridiculous dives I've ever seen occurred in the penalty box, and Italy is awarded a PK. And then one fo the goals scored later on for Italy was actually offside, though I can't completely blame the refs on that one, as we know it's not always easy to see offsides in "real time"; however, after the first ridiculous penalty and the offside goal, it seemed as if the officials/luck had declared Italy the winner already.


1990 quarter finals: Netherlands(1) - Germany(2).
Rijkaard delivers a very late and very questionable tackle on Voller. Then, he is seen spitting, at two different instances, spitting on Voller twice. By some bizarre logic, though, Rijkaard AND Voller get sent off, ridiculous by any measure. Germany wins this one, however.

On to Germany's bid for 2006, which should be fresh on peoples minds. This is what lead me to questioning FIFA's con job of Germany in the past, here's what tipped me off:

In Germany's first match against Costa Rica, there are two goals made by Costa Rica that were offside. One was clearly offside and the other was just a bit offside. Allowing one of the goals is forgivable error, but allowing both seemed to smell very fishy. So much for home field advantage.

Then Germany proceeds without much incident, though they do get a Swede sent off for holding which was a debatable call, but it seemed Germany had pretty much already sealed that game up in the first 15 minutes.

Then the incident in the Argentina game. A couple of poor sport Argentine players attack a couple of the German players. The broadcast in the US don't show much of the actual perpetrators, though Heinze is clearly seen swinging punches at German players. Later on videos show what actually happened, with three players being implicated and having actions taken against them: Frings, Cufre, and Rodriguez being indicated as the "major perpatrators"

All the "punches" to me seemed to be more like "nannyslaps" and nothing serious, from both frings and the Argentines that actually took swings. The only really serious attack was what started it all. Metsecker was laying on the ground after the victory exhausted and Cufre ran up and stomped on his nuts. IMO, they should have either just punished Cufre severely or punished all those involved. However, from the additional videos there are at least 3-4 Argentines seen swing/kicking, again nothing too serious, so if FIFA was going to go after Frings they should have went after the rest too, particularly Heinze who was clearly seen in all the original feeds as wildly taking swings at people. Oh, and this here also did not result in any punishment either for Argentina, when they must have obviously had the video tape(everyone saw this in the USA feed, that's for sure)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTmENd0JyAU&search=klose%20slap

No punishment? Again, it's a nancyslap, but it was clear that FIFA really approached this whole game investigation with a heavy bias against Germany. As a side note, Cruz, the guy Frings hit, says he wasn't even punched at all. And he's right, he was nancyslapped. Heh.

Then we come to the Italy game. In the early portion of this game, there is a header cross in the penalty box that is batted down by an Italian defender's elbow. It does not really look intentional at all, but my knowledge of the rules is that intention does not matter, only if the player/team was advantage by the handball. Well, this was a two on one break away that could have easily been a score and the handball occurred in the penalty box. No call, though. Then, around the 80th minute or so, a foul is committed well within the Italian penalty area, which should have resulted in a penalty kick, but for some odd reason the ref puts it several feet out of the penalty box and awards a free kick instead of a penalty? I'm still at a loss for what the heck was going on there.

Are there any other countries that have a history of bad luck or outright bias or a lot of "favorable" ones? I'm particularly curious about the USSR, because apparently they have had some excellent teams but have rarely got far into the World Cup, and after seeing Germany's seemingly biased treatment over the World Cup years, it makes me wonder if they got something similar?

Edit: I fixed a year, and want to add that I'm not sure what the old offside rule(s) was.


This made an interesting reading.You surely have done your research. But surely a nation with as much footballing history as Germany would have had moments when decisions went against her and some moments when decisions went for her. It would be true for Italy, Brazil, England and the other footballing power houses.

Some more anti-Germany decisions that come to my mind:
1) The penalty call against Sammer in the Euro 96 final against Czech Rep.

2) The yellow card for Ballack in the WC 02 semi finals. The referee need not have given that one. The foul was not that harsh.

Some decisions that were very pro-Germany that come to my mind:
1) Frings hand ball in the quarters against USA. Neither was Frings sent off for deliberate hand ball, nor was a penalty given.

2) The Carsten Janker's 'push the defender aside then score' gimmick against Saudi Arabia in WC2002. It didnt matter much because it was 3-0 already.

3) Schumacher gets no card for that life threatening foul on Battiston.

4) The penalty for Voellers dive in the WC 90 final.

My point is that one maybe able to cite examples of decisions that have gone for and against Germany.

The only time I felt that Germany or German clubs have been cheated is when Bayern lost to Manchester United, and when the German team lost to Italy in the semi finals of this world cup. :)

But the Germans being a very 'object oriented' people, do not let such losses affect their performance. I am sure they'll be strong as ever for the next WC.

Ledfoot
02 Aug 2006, 12:09 PM
dinky qualifier that determines the group winner and WC qualifier!!!

How about the final of Euro 1996, Germany realy got the short end of the stick against the Czechs also :rolleyes:

nicephoras
02 Aug 2006, 12:19 PM
Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc. Really, its hard to argue Germany has been hard done by when it has been on the receiving end of some famously favorable decisions.
The only country I can really think of that does get screwed on a regular basis is probably Spain. I don't really remember a game where I thought Spain were really helped by the ref.

Illrod3
02 Aug 2006, 12:21 PM
Cant' comment on all those older games since I haven't seen them, but in the last World Cup I thought Germany got all the questionable calls against Arg. I think that Klose? or was it Ballack? should have a least have a foul call if not a card, on him when he runned into Arg's goalie taking him out of the game. Also there was a penalty not called on Maxi Rodriguez (in my opinion) late in the game. There rest were just a series of small calls that add up. I thought the referring was more fair in the Italian game as Italy did seem to get a lot of calls on their favor specially early in the cup.

Natrium
02 Aug 2006, 12:56 PM
Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc. Really, its hard to argue Germany has been hard done by when it has been on the receiving end of some famously favorable decisions.
The "culprit" Hölzenbein used to say "If an English referee gives Germany a penalty you can be sure it must have been a correct call." There is very much truth in it.
Also there was a penalty not called on Maxi Rodriguez (in my opinion) late in the game.
You mean the Lahm challenge? You're the first person I come across who claims a penalty for that blatant dive. Has to be a coincidence that you support Argentina, right?

Bertje
02 Aug 2006, 12:59 PM
Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc. Really, its hard to argue Germany has been hard done by when it has been on the receiving end of some famously favorable decisions.

They also had a perfect goal disallowed.