FIFA: history of cheating Germany? Any others?

[Totallyemo]

"1) Frings hand ball in the quarters against USA. Neither was Frings sent off for deliberate hand ball, nor was a penalty given."

Was that Frings?I don't remember who, but I do remember that... I remember it because the first thing on my mind was "oh god, it must be our karma!" In the previous game we did the same thing to mexico(I think it was mexico)! Karma bit us in the butt.

"2) The Carsten Janker's 'push the defender aside then score' gimmick against Saudi Arabia in WC2002. It didnt matter much because it was 3-0 already."

I didn't watch that game but ya not much there as far as being cheated out of a possible win. I thought that game ended like 6 to 0 or something ridiculous?

"3) Schumacher gets no card for that life threatening foul on Battiston."

Ya. Nasty tackle. Maybe the ref was right behind the play. And If I recall right, the ref was Dutch...

"4) The penalty for Voellers dive in the WC 90 final."

Umm, you mean Klinsmann, not voller? It looks like a dive to me, but you can't quite tell due to all the bad angles they reply from, but it looked like a dive to me. Can't say Argentina didn't have that one coming though.

[Totallyemo]

"Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc."

Speaking of bias... you couldn't cite a WORSE game to prove your point. The first goal of that game came from Cruyff dive that wasn't even in the penalty box! Here's the picutre. it's harder to see this going on in the video, but it's clear here the dive started outside the box and it looks like no contact was even made with him whatsoever. He jumped and dove.:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/goldkeep/Holland74/picWGer1.jpg
Total dive from outside the box!

That was only Dutch goal in the whole game. You can debate the merits of the possible German dive all you want, but this one was itself clearly bogus.

And to add my two cents to the merits of the German dive, I forget who the life of me it was, but you can clearly see is tripped, though trip should not have cuased him to look like he'd beenshot. Still, it was a legit foul, far more so than cruyff's outside the box dive.

[arthur d]

"Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc."

Speaking of bias... you couldn't cite a WORSE game to prove your point. The first goal of that game came from Cruyff dive that wasn't even in the penalty bo! Here's the picutre:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/goldkeep/Holland74/picWGer1.jpg
Total dive from outside the box!

That was only Dutch goal in the whole game. You can debate the merits of the possible German dive all you want, but this one was itself clearly bogus.


I don't think it was a dive, but yes it was clearly outside the box. I also think that the Germany penalty was very very very soft, but then again it has already been mentioned that Mueller had a perfectly fine goal disallowed so the victory was deserved in that game.

Throughout history it's pretty even I think. If anything I would have thought we were quite lucky more often than not.

[Totallyemo]

I don't think it was a dive, but yes it was clearly outside the box. I also think that the Germany penalty was very very very soft, but then again it has already been mentioned that Mueller had a perfectly fine goal disallowed so the victory was deserved in that game.

Throughout history it's pretty even I think. If anything I would have thought we were quite lucky more often than not.


Oh, that's right. Muller had one of his shots declared offside but in reality it wasn't offside at all.

And let's not forget about the non-called penalty late in the game. It was far worse than the first penalty Germany was awarded yet not called. I think it's pretty clear they were trying to either "keep it close" or trying to let the Dutch win. Waaaaay too many bogus calls. Then again, maybe it was just a poorly officiated game.

But like I said, it's clear he's got some amazing bias if he tries to use '74 as an excuse that Germany hasn't had the lion's share of poor calls. Then again, Germany has been in more semi finals and finals than anyone else I think.

[Gregoriak]

dinky qualifier that determines the group winner and WC qualifier!!!

How about the final of Euro 1996, Germany realy got the short end of the stick against the Czechs also :rolleyes:
The Czechs got a penalty for a foul that was clearly outside the box, maybe one meter. This surely makes more than up for Bierhoff's goal, where Kuntz was passively offside.

In the semi of that 1996 Euro, Kuntz scored with a header in extra-time vs. England, it would have been the Golden Goal to decide the game. But ref Sandor Puhl didn't give the goal with about the same reasoning Campbell's goal vs. the Swiss in 2004 wasn't given. The English didn't complain about the ref's decision in 1996, though.

[Gregoriak]

I don't think Cruyff took a dive in 1974, but the foul took place sharply outside the penalty box.

[Gregoriak]

The only country I can really think of that does get screwed on a regular basis is probably Spain. I don't really remember a game where I thought Spain were really helped by the ref.

Spain still pay for having been blatantly favoured by the refs in the 1982 World Cup. They wouldn't have made it out of the first group stage if not for the refs helping them out in a way similar to Korea 2002.

[RichardL]

Spain still pay for having been blatantly favoured by the refs in the 1982 World Cup. They wouldn't have made it out of the first group stage if not for the refs helping them out in a way similar to Korea 2002.
?

Spain lost their final group match to Northern Ireland. The ref didn't exactly do them any favours in that one.

[RichardL]

In the semi of that 1996 Euro, Kuntz scored with a header in extra-time vs. England, it would have been the Golden Goal to decide the game. But ref Sandor Puhl didn't give the goal with about the same reasoning Campbell's goal vs. the Swiss in 2004 wasn't given. The English didn't complain about the ref's decision in 1996, though.
that was a very odd one. Nobody could work out why it had been disallowed. I don't think any players even appealed for a foul.

The fact is, every team can compile a list of dodgy decisions. It's hardly grounds for a conspiracy.

[unclesox]

The fact is, every team can compile a list of dodgy decisions. It's hardly grounds for a conspiracy.
Totally agree.

But since were on Germany, here are a few more debatable calls both for and against the Mannschaft:

1966: I haven't watched all their matches, but I've read many claims that West Germany were notorious for embellishing dives to gain free kicks. The first side to have gained such a reputation?

1980 EURO final: Belgium equalized through a penalty gained when they broke a W.German offside trap and the attacker was felled by the German defender outside the penalty area. (Forget the players involved) Similar play to how Juventus gained a penalty in the '85 European Cup final.

1982: West Germany 1-0 Austria. No further comment.

1994: Germany v Belgium again, but this time a clear foul inside the area by Hellmer on Weber goes unpunished in favor of Germany in the second half. The referee in this match, Kurt Rothlisberger of Switzerland, had the book thrown at him a few years later after bribery accusations stemming from a different match.

[Totallyemo]

that was a very odd one. Nobody could work out why it had been disallowed. I don't think any players even appealed for a foul.

The fact is, every team can compile a list of dodgy decisions. It's hardly grounds for a conspiracy.

Nice hyperbole, but far from being logically sound. That's like saying everyone is going to die sooner or later, so why is murder wrong? You know of Team that has had so many poor calls cost them so many games in the world cup final 8 and later stages? I'd LOVE to hear who that might have been.

[Totallyemo]

Totally agree.

But since were on Germany, here are a few more debatable calls both for and against the Mannschaft:

1966: I haven't watched all their matches, but I've read many claims that West Germany were notorious for embellishing dives to gain free kicks. The first side to have gained such a reputation?


What the hell kind of comment is that? I've heard England players were a bunch of child rapists/pedophiles?? What a joke.


1982: West Germany 1-0 Austria. No further comment.


Has nothing to do with bad or good calls for Germany, just like your first ridiculous comment. Germany was nice enough to let Austria into the knockout stages, so what? It wasn't against the rules. That's why FIFA changed their stupid game play schedule.

[unclesox]

Join Date: Aug 2006
I'd take your comments more seriously, newbie, but I haven't the time to waste.

Welcome to the board, btw. :)

[Gregoriak]

1966: I haven't watched all their matches, but I've read many claims that West Germany were notorious for embellishing dives to gain free kicks. The first side to have gained such a reputation?

I don't think so. I have all of Germany's 1966 World Cup games and I didn't notice anything like that.

[Gregoriak]

?

Spain lost their final group match to Northern Ireland. The ref didn't exactly do them any favours in that one.

Spain vs. Honduras (1-1):
-Argie ref Ithurralde gives a penalty for Spain in the 65th minute after a harmless jostle betweem Zelaya of Honduras and Spanish CF Satrustegui, could have gone the other way as well. Spain equalizes.

Spain vs. Yugoslavia (2-1):
-10th minute, Gudelj scores the lead for Yugoslavia.
-11th minute: Alonso is brought down by Zajec before the box, should be a freekick, Danish ref Sörensen gives penalty, but Ufarte misses.
-Sörensen repeats the penalty, as Pantelic moved on the line (those days every goalie did that without getting punished). Juanito converts.

Spain vs. Northern Ireland (0-1):
-47th minute, Armstrong scores the 1-0 for Northern Ireland, a 1-0 to Northern Ireland would have meant that both Spain and N.Irl made it to the second round, if Norther Ireland had scored a second goal, Spain would have been eliminated of the World Cup
-61st minute, after a harmless foul on Camacho, Donaghy gets sent off.

To summarize: the Spanish got two penalty gifts, one of which even got repeated, without them they would not have made the second round. Plus a dubious red card for a Northern Irish player in a game they needed not to lose by more than one goal.

[Gregoriak]

The fact is, every team can compile a list of dodgy decisions. It's hardly grounds for a conspiracy.

Certainly.

[unclesox]

I don't think so. I have all of Germany's 1966 World Cup games and I didn't notice anything like that.
I'll try and look through the many books/magazines I have. I remember there was a time when German players had gained a rep for embellishing fouls and I thought it was around the time of the '66 World Cup. :confused:

[Pabs]

1982 finals: Italy(3) Germany(1). One of the most ridiculous dives I've ever seen occurred in the penalty box, and Italy is awarded a PK. And then one fo the goals scored later on for Italy was actually offside, though I can't completely blame the refs on that one, as we know it's not always easy to see offsides in "real time"; however, after the first ridiculous penalty and the offside goal, it seemed as if the officials/luck had declared Italy the winner already.

Horsesh!t on all accounts. Don't take my words for it, but rather the words of the German players of the day:

go to: www.raiclicktv.it.

then go to: Sfide - Le Lezioni di Bearzot (The Lessons of Enzo Bearzot)

since you don't understand Italian, here's a direct translation to what the German players said about that game:

- Briegel says that he had difficulty in his 1v1 battle with Bruno Conti.

also admits to it being a legit PK call that he gave up (the one that Cabrini ended up missing). Bruno Conti says that Briegel was such a big man physically that it took very little for Briegel to floor him.

- Peter Briegel says that the German team was "full of individuals and egoists that only looked after their own interests. It was embarassing"

Uli Stielike concurs and says that the German team was full of cliques. One being the players from Bayern Munich, the other clique was players from Cologne. Stielike says that he was in neither clique as he was playing for Real Madrid.

- Briegel adds that the team partied a bit too much for such an important tournament.

Also says that for the final, they were dead tired. A few players were sick, including him to lost 8kg's due to a severe case of diarreah.

- Cabrini was so upset that he missed the PK that he kept looking at the bench.

- Brietner says that normally when an opponent misses a PK, there is a little bit of celebrating done and that it becomes a lift to the team. But the German team was so tired that they couldn't even muster up a celebration.

- At halftime Cabrini started crying for missing the PK. Bearzot told him "why are you crying ? Can't you see they are dead tired and can't even stand ? Soon after every player was joining in and saying similar things and telling him not to worry as they were going to beat them in the second half. Graziani told him that his missed PK will become nothing but a footnote to the game.

- Paul Brietner says that at halftime there was a confrontation between Stiekle and Rumminegge. Brietner goes on to say that Rumminege wanted Stielike to admit responsibilty for their problems in the dressing room, and in turn, Stielike demanded Rumminegge be subbed off as he was ineffective.

- Briegel says that Stielike considered himself a leader but he was nothing but someone who talked too much.

- after the 2-0 score Stielike was so frustrated that he gave the ref a little "accidental shot" in the back as he ran by him, for which he was booked.


In case you mised it, let me repeat what Briegel said:

- Briegel says that he had difficulty in his 1v1 battle with Bruno Conti.

also admits to it being a legit PK call that he gave up (the one that Cabrini ended up missing). Bruno Conti says that Briegel was such a big man physically that it took very little for Briegel to floor him.

[el mero mero]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/26/Argentina_flag_large.png

[PsychedelicCeltic]

"Or the "penalty" against Holland in '74, etc. etc."

Speaking of bias... you couldn't cite a WORSE game to prove your point. The first goal of that game came from Cruyff dive that wasn't even in the penalty box! Here's the picutre. it's harder to see this going on in the video, but it's clear here the dive started outside the box and it looks like no contact was even made with him whatsoever. He jumped and dove.:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/goldkeep/Holland74/picWGer1.jpg
Total dive from outside the box!

That was only Dutch goal in the whole game. You can debate the merits of the possible German dive all you want, but this one was itself clearly bogus.

And to add my two cents to the merits of the German dive, I forget who the life of me it was, but you can clearly see is tripped, though trip should not have cuased him to look like he'd beenshot. Still, it was a legit foul, far more so than cruyff's outside the box dive.
Preposterous. It was on the edge of the box, but Cruyff was fouled. It was either a penalty or Hoeness is sent off for a professional foul (in which case the Dutch likely win at a canter), since he clearly fouled Cruyff in the process of a goalscoring opportunity. Beckenbauer didn't exactly argue the decision.

Hoelzenbein has all but admitted he "schwalbed" on Jansen's tackle to draw the penalty. By the standards of football in 1974 (much more physical than today), the foul was extremely soft.

Germany won because they took their chances a lot better than Holland did (cough Johnny Rep cough) but any idea that they were hampered by the referee is ludicrous.