Dark Savante
31 Jul 2006, 01:24 PM
Right, Mascherano, Torres or Tevez… if there is a marquee signing to be made this Summer involving us people seem convinced it’ll involve one of these guys. So let’s look at how we would play with each one. In the case of Mascherano obviously Senna does not arrive in this window. In the case of the other 2 we’re imagining Senna and Carrick have arrived and the midfield is sorted.
So,
Mascherano
http://www.weys.net/data/image/argentine/mascherano.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Mascherano
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Saha
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----Mascherano---Scholes/Carrick
Park-----------------------Ronaldo
-----------------Rooney
---------Saha
This is a midfield on par with anything in Europe. As a defensive unit this is one of the best in Europe. In every technical category the midfield is solid except pace, but with the smarts and positioning of Mascherano and Carrick you really have a solid midfield in both directions. Mascherano is a good user and passer of the ball, he does not have to be limited to a simple ‘give it to Carrick and Scholes’ role, he has the ability to move forward and hold the position to allow the rest to really camp in the opposing half for the majority of a game.
You have to say there are no excuses for a team like that. If they stayed fit Fergie would rightfully be under serious scrutiny and the expectation of a serious push to the title would not only be expected but demanded by the fans and the….owners. There isn’t a midfield in Europe that set of three would be inferior to. For my money only Makelele is a better DM than Mascherano, he really shores up the midfield. Rio and Wes would be expected to completely shut anything that comes through down, no real excuses. It would take a very good offensive performance to get past a defensive 6 like that.
Tevez
http://www.terra.com/addon/img/deportes/futbol/1424bd4tevez130p.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Tevez
I feel this has only two outcomes.
1. absolute failure in its purest sense.
2. absolute success in its purest sense.
Two of the most naturally talented players of their generation lined up next to each other who both play in the same position nominally and both work like absolute beasts for the team. There is one key difference between them and the only inkling I get that it could work. Tevez is actually an in-the-box-finisher. It’s his best area of the field and he really comes alive just on the line into the penalty area. He performs more little tricks and skills inside the box then outside of it and revels in the fact he can’t be chopped down for risk of a penalty. Rooney operates from a lot further out, maybe the 45-20yard mark is where Rooney is at his absolute best – benni made a Tevez vs. Rooney thread in the BG forum some time ago that goes into great detail on the subject if anyone is interested.
In this instance there is going to be perfect synergy or they would absolutely flop. On the bad side you have to think Scholes, Rooney and Tevez in the same side is just wrong. The chances for Scholes and Tevez or Rooney to get in each others way would be quite small, but adding in a 3rd and it has the potential to get so messy as to be unworkable. On the plus side the footballing intelligence of the 3 of them is off the scale. Tevez and Scholes are much more considered players, they have a plan of action to what they do, cunning is an appropriate word. Rooney works off of instinct and impulses – anything can happen when he goes run-about from a 30yard volley to a crazy run and assist with the outside of his right boot from an impossible angle whilst seemingly unsighted (his assist for Ruud’s superb goal at Charlton) Rooney is the player you just let off his chain and watch him go berserk. Tevez is the attack dog a security firm would use…who knows how best to use his bite and more importantly for such a pairing, when to use his bite.
Tevez has performed as a #9 at times for Corinthians and with the way he finishes (the eye he has for goal inside the box) he could probably play the role full time or some kind of hybrid if asked to do so. It’s not optimal, imo, but he certainly has traits of a target forward. Considering he is about 5’6 that’s a weird thing to say…but his hold up play with his back to goal is really top class, he is strong, very strong and has that low centre of gravity which means that not only can he hold off 6ft+ CB’s he can also give them the slip or really frustrate them with the way he can shield the ball and bring others into a play. Tevez is also very comfortable with intricate one touch systems, moreso than Rooney actually. In a passing chain of any worth it’s not Tevez that will lose the ball. So if there was to be a synergy it would look real purty on the pitch.
Where this partnership absolutely flops is in the air. Neither of them are good in the air and neither of them is looking to head the ball on instinct. High crosses would have next to no function with these two paired up. Not only that, they are a short pairing. Height-wise you don’t see such a short pairings very often in a European league, especially not in Northern European leagues.
Movement across the line is a department that does not fill me with any enthusiasm with these two. As natural support strikers they are both used to dropping into their specialised area of the pitch, turning around and carrying the ball forward, relying on their natural ability from that point onward. They aren’t players who drift across the line in the way a natural striker does. They are players that show for the ball. This is where you have to wonder whether this partnership could even get off the ground. If your natural skill-set draws you toward the ball why would you suddenly learn to run away from the ball and into spaces that proper #9’s take up? If you ask me, I don’t think it could work here unless Tevez had that movement in his locker. As the better in-box finisher it would be on him to find the space he needs to put the ball away. I remain sceptical on this score. Still, you’re looking at a total success or a total failure with this pairing.
Torres
http://www.terra.com/addon/img/deportes/futbol/15f22a4torres130p.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Torres
Torres has always been my #1 choice for the way we play. He is the souped up version of Andy Cole. His movement across the line is absolutely top class and his pace and ability on either foot are also top, top class. Where Torres falls down in his attribute list is in his finishing, he is erratic in this department certainly not a scratch on Ruud. The point with Torres, however, is that he is only 22. At 22, from this generation of strikers, only Ronaldo and Shevchenko were complete as in, were not going to get any better. Most strikers start to really put the package together around their mid 20’s, but what Torres has shown is that he is capable of some world class finishes, that he is erratic just suggests that as he matures he will learn how to compose himself in front of goal.
The package he is now is still dangerous. People tend to overstate the finishing aspect of Torres and use it as the be all and end all of the player. What they don’t take into account frequently is that Atletico are a very up and down team as it is, that does not help a striker to develop his game, much like when Rooney was at Everton and would sometimes go for five or six minutes at a time without a sniff of the ball because the team was getting hammered and when he did get a touch, it was with nowhere to go and he’d quickly get dispossessed and frustrated. At United and when he first broke into the England side, Rooney looked a different player - one who could fully express himself. I think Torres plays a better team game for Spain then he does for his club where he is oft the player who everyone looks to and depends on. That is a tremendous amount of pressure on the shoulders of a player who is still learning his trade. This is where Tevez differs from Rooney and Torres imo, as Tevez, apart from his temper, is a very rounded and almost complete article on the pitch. I don’t think he has much player growth left, he is exceptionally mature in his game for one so young and that’s why unlike Rooney or Torres he could go to somewhere like Italy and serie A and shine. The wasteful parts of both Rooney’s and Torres’ game would be heavily frowned upon in Italy. Their support strikers are precise, their strikers, strike - no nonsense. Wild actions in the considered area of the pitch is a no-no. I think Torres would be a flop in Italy and Rooney would not be allowed to express himself like he can in England. Tevez would go there and perform with no problems, imo.
Anyway, as we are in England and we are United, striker expression is encouraged. The more movement and enthusiasm the better. The missing of chances, whilst not acceptable to an extent, is not frowned upon as long as you’re not doing a Forlan and missing absolute sitters. Torres misses some text book chances, but he certainly does not miss guilt-edged opportunities with the frequency of a Forlan.
What has always appealed to me with Torres is the way midfielders can thrive off the movement he has. He leaves defences in knots, crossing them up, stretching them vertically, cutting back and double or triple-checking his runs. Paul Scholes would be in his element running into the box off the back of Torres’ movement. Ronaldo and Rooney would also be in their element. One of the biggest differences between Torres and a striker like Ruud is that Torres will run towards where the ball will end up, he doesn’t have a plan of attack, in this sense he lacks Ruud’s guile, Ruud runs one way and checks to the other to receive the ball in the place he wants it. He makes proper runs full of intent and that’s why he got so angry when Ronaldo didn’t pass him the ball at the correct moments and effectively ruined one of Ruud’s calculated runs. When that happens to a player like Ruud he is then stuck unless a loose ball falls to him. If it does he will finish it, but because his first run had such purpose he can be pretty uninvolved in a play past that point. Player’s like Cole and Torres make up for the lack of absolute clinical finishing by continually running across the line – for every Ronaldo step-over, Torres adjusts his position.
I used to love watching Cole and Giggs link-up like this. Imo Cole had much more success off of Giggs’ side then he did from Beckham’s. Their combined movement used to overwhelm sides and as Yorke was always running in the correct direction to compliment Cole’s run, defenders did not know who or what to mark. I think this same synergy could be created between Torres, Rooney and Ronaldo. They are all fast, direct and aggressive players and they are not similar in style or intention, very similar to the Giggs, Yorke and Cole set, I’d even say there is more energy in the RTR set as they are younger as a collective and desperate to make a mark when they play. I don’t think it has anyone as clinical as Yorke (or anywhere near as good in the air) in the modern triumvirate though. So it’s give and take.
Unlike Tevez you have to be reasonable and consider Torres might not settle into the physical, no-holds barred end of the EPL. Tevez is what I call a universal player, in that he could go to any league in the world and play in the exact same way with no decline in performance or output. Torres, as already stated in my opinion, would not do very well in Italy and depending on his constitution and bottle might not do well here either. I’ve always liked his attitude though and he is not afraid to miss shots, he’ll always show for another one. A lot of strikers hide after a few misses and believe me, part of why Cole succeeded here is because he had the bottle and belief in himself to ignore the boo boys and the occasional scolding from Cantona to keep on taking shots. Forlan is a perfect example of what happens when a striker doesn’t have the nerve and goes into his shell. You can’t say for certain that Torres has the balls to perform after taking the knocks, he is not a beast of a player like Rooney or Tevez who both thrive in a war. Torres is a clean player, he avoids scrambles and bashes from CB’s wherever possible, some would even consider him lightweight in style. This can go two ways. The Reyes way, where he shits himself every time a tackle comes in and cries and whines about it, or the Garcia/Ronaldo way where he just gets up and gets on with it ( the cultural gesticulations aside ) I can see where that could worry people, after all Torres would not come cheap. He’s a £25m+ player and for that kind of money you need special performances from the boy. What is not in doubt, to me at least, is that if he came here and was not a bottler, he would be an absolute success here. His contribution to the way we play would be noticeable immediately. Scholes, Carrick, Rooney and Ronaldo would thrive and between them I think we could take apart any team in the league in an attacking sense.
What some people may ask is what is the difference between Torres and Saha? The most obvious difference off the bat is that Saha is a player who relies a great deal on his strength and aerial prowess he is also very aggressive in style, but in a physical way. Saha, for an injury-prone striker, bizarrely loves to get stuck in. He puts his body into clear and present danger to get on the end of things (how often have you seen him with huge chalk marks on his head and wondered how the hell he got them?) and he does not look to run the line when he can go shoulder to shoulder with a defender on a cross to win a header. Torres on the other hand, avoids physical confrontations wherever possible, he’s a player that gets clean strikes on a ball because he has nipped across a CB from the blind side etc. If they were both boxers one would be a stick and mover and the other would be a bit of a slugger. One would embrace the clinch, the other would not be comfortable – I don’t think you’d ever see Torres going in for 50-50 balls with Terry or Neill etc. Where Saha relishes it, but where Torres has a huge upper-hand is that he has the speed of thought and the movement to get cleanly in front of a CB and get a strike on goal from a ground pass. I also think Torres would draw a fair amount of PK shouts with this facet of his game.
Reality
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Saha
Most probably our lot. This is good, where two of the others are great, imo.
A bit longer then I thought it was going to be… :o but I think I got everything in there. To sum up, I’d prefer the Mascherano or Torres route for all the reasons expressed. Feel free to add on anything you think I’ve left out.
So,
Mascherano
http://www.weys.net/data/image/argentine/mascherano.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Mascherano
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Saha
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----Mascherano---Scholes/Carrick
Park-----------------------Ronaldo
-----------------Rooney
---------Saha
This is a midfield on par with anything in Europe. As a defensive unit this is one of the best in Europe. In every technical category the midfield is solid except pace, but with the smarts and positioning of Mascherano and Carrick you really have a solid midfield in both directions. Mascherano is a good user and passer of the ball, he does not have to be limited to a simple ‘give it to Carrick and Scholes’ role, he has the ability to move forward and hold the position to allow the rest to really camp in the opposing half for the majority of a game.
You have to say there are no excuses for a team like that. If they stayed fit Fergie would rightfully be under serious scrutiny and the expectation of a serious push to the title would not only be expected but demanded by the fans and the….owners. There isn’t a midfield in Europe that set of three would be inferior to. For my money only Makelele is a better DM than Mascherano, he really shores up the midfield. Rio and Wes would be expected to completely shut anything that comes through down, no real excuses. It would take a very good offensive performance to get past a defensive 6 like that.
Tevez
http://www.terra.com/addon/img/deportes/futbol/1424bd4tevez130p.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Tevez
I feel this has only two outcomes.
1. absolute failure in its purest sense.
2. absolute success in its purest sense.
Two of the most naturally talented players of their generation lined up next to each other who both play in the same position nominally and both work like absolute beasts for the team. There is one key difference between them and the only inkling I get that it could work. Tevez is actually an in-the-box-finisher. It’s his best area of the field and he really comes alive just on the line into the penalty area. He performs more little tricks and skills inside the box then outside of it and revels in the fact he can’t be chopped down for risk of a penalty. Rooney operates from a lot further out, maybe the 45-20yard mark is where Rooney is at his absolute best – benni made a Tevez vs. Rooney thread in the BG forum some time ago that goes into great detail on the subject if anyone is interested.
In this instance there is going to be perfect synergy or they would absolutely flop. On the bad side you have to think Scholes, Rooney and Tevez in the same side is just wrong. The chances for Scholes and Tevez or Rooney to get in each others way would be quite small, but adding in a 3rd and it has the potential to get so messy as to be unworkable. On the plus side the footballing intelligence of the 3 of them is off the scale. Tevez and Scholes are much more considered players, they have a plan of action to what they do, cunning is an appropriate word. Rooney works off of instinct and impulses – anything can happen when he goes run-about from a 30yard volley to a crazy run and assist with the outside of his right boot from an impossible angle whilst seemingly unsighted (his assist for Ruud’s superb goal at Charlton) Rooney is the player you just let off his chain and watch him go berserk. Tevez is the attack dog a security firm would use…who knows how best to use his bite and more importantly for such a pairing, when to use his bite.
Tevez has performed as a #9 at times for Corinthians and with the way he finishes (the eye he has for goal inside the box) he could probably play the role full time or some kind of hybrid if asked to do so. It’s not optimal, imo, but he certainly has traits of a target forward. Considering he is about 5’6 that’s a weird thing to say…but his hold up play with his back to goal is really top class, he is strong, very strong and has that low centre of gravity which means that not only can he hold off 6ft+ CB’s he can also give them the slip or really frustrate them with the way he can shield the ball and bring others into a play. Tevez is also very comfortable with intricate one touch systems, moreso than Rooney actually. In a passing chain of any worth it’s not Tevez that will lose the ball. So if there was to be a synergy it would look real purty on the pitch.
Where this partnership absolutely flops is in the air. Neither of them are good in the air and neither of them is looking to head the ball on instinct. High crosses would have next to no function with these two paired up. Not only that, they are a short pairing. Height-wise you don’t see such a short pairings very often in a European league, especially not in Northern European leagues.
Movement across the line is a department that does not fill me with any enthusiasm with these two. As natural support strikers they are both used to dropping into their specialised area of the pitch, turning around and carrying the ball forward, relying on their natural ability from that point onward. They aren’t players who drift across the line in the way a natural striker does. They are players that show for the ball. This is where you have to wonder whether this partnership could even get off the ground. If your natural skill-set draws you toward the ball why would you suddenly learn to run away from the ball and into spaces that proper #9’s take up? If you ask me, I don’t think it could work here unless Tevez had that movement in his locker. As the better in-box finisher it would be on him to find the space he needs to put the ball away. I remain sceptical on this score. Still, you’re looking at a total success or a total failure with this pairing.
Torres
http://www.terra.com/addon/img/deportes/futbol/15f22a4torres130p.jpg
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Torres
Torres has always been my #1 choice for the way we play. He is the souped up version of Andy Cole. His movement across the line is absolutely top class and his pace and ability on either foot are also top, top class. Where Torres falls down in his attribute list is in his finishing, he is erratic in this department certainly not a scratch on Ruud. The point with Torres, however, is that he is only 22. At 22, from this generation of strikers, only Ronaldo and Shevchenko were complete as in, were not going to get any better. Most strikers start to really put the package together around their mid 20’s, but what Torres has shown is that he is capable of some world class finishes, that he is erratic just suggests that as he matures he will learn how to compose himself in front of goal.
The package he is now is still dangerous. People tend to overstate the finishing aspect of Torres and use it as the be all and end all of the player. What they don’t take into account frequently is that Atletico are a very up and down team as it is, that does not help a striker to develop his game, much like when Rooney was at Everton and would sometimes go for five or six minutes at a time without a sniff of the ball because the team was getting hammered and when he did get a touch, it was with nowhere to go and he’d quickly get dispossessed and frustrated. At United and when he first broke into the England side, Rooney looked a different player - one who could fully express himself. I think Torres plays a better team game for Spain then he does for his club where he is oft the player who everyone looks to and depends on. That is a tremendous amount of pressure on the shoulders of a player who is still learning his trade. This is where Tevez differs from Rooney and Torres imo, as Tevez, apart from his temper, is a very rounded and almost complete article on the pitch. I don’t think he has much player growth left, he is exceptionally mature in his game for one so young and that’s why unlike Rooney or Torres he could go to somewhere like Italy and serie A and shine. The wasteful parts of both Rooney’s and Torres’ game would be heavily frowned upon in Italy. Their support strikers are precise, their strikers, strike - no nonsense. Wild actions in the considered area of the pitch is a no-no. I think Torres would be a flop in Italy and Rooney would not be allowed to express himself like he can in England. Tevez would go there and perform with no problems, imo.
Anyway, as we are in England and we are United, striker expression is encouraged. The more movement and enthusiasm the better. The missing of chances, whilst not acceptable to an extent, is not frowned upon as long as you’re not doing a Forlan and missing absolute sitters. Torres misses some text book chances, but he certainly does not miss guilt-edged opportunities with the frequency of a Forlan.
What has always appealed to me with Torres is the way midfielders can thrive off the movement he has. He leaves defences in knots, crossing them up, stretching them vertically, cutting back and double or triple-checking his runs. Paul Scholes would be in his element running into the box off the back of Torres’ movement. Ronaldo and Rooney would also be in their element. One of the biggest differences between Torres and a striker like Ruud is that Torres will run towards where the ball will end up, he doesn’t have a plan of attack, in this sense he lacks Ruud’s guile, Ruud runs one way and checks to the other to receive the ball in the place he wants it. He makes proper runs full of intent and that’s why he got so angry when Ronaldo didn’t pass him the ball at the correct moments and effectively ruined one of Ruud’s calculated runs. When that happens to a player like Ruud he is then stuck unless a loose ball falls to him. If it does he will finish it, but because his first run had such purpose he can be pretty uninvolved in a play past that point. Player’s like Cole and Torres make up for the lack of absolute clinical finishing by continually running across the line – for every Ronaldo step-over, Torres adjusts his position.
I used to love watching Cole and Giggs link-up like this. Imo Cole had much more success off of Giggs’ side then he did from Beckham’s. Their combined movement used to overwhelm sides and as Yorke was always running in the correct direction to compliment Cole’s run, defenders did not know who or what to mark. I think this same synergy could be created between Torres, Rooney and Ronaldo. They are all fast, direct and aggressive players and they are not similar in style or intention, very similar to the Giggs, Yorke and Cole set, I’d even say there is more energy in the RTR set as they are younger as a collective and desperate to make a mark when they play. I don’t think it has anyone as clinical as Yorke (or anywhere near as good in the air) in the modern triumvirate though. So it’s give and take.
Unlike Tevez you have to be reasonable and consider Torres might not settle into the physical, no-holds barred end of the EPL. Tevez is what I call a universal player, in that he could go to any league in the world and play in the exact same way with no decline in performance or output. Torres, as already stated in my opinion, would not do very well in Italy and depending on his constitution and bottle might not do well here either. I’ve always liked his attitude though and he is not afraid to miss shots, he’ll always show for another one. A lot of strikers hide after a few misses and believe me, part of why Cole succeeded here is because he had the bottle and belief in himself to ignore the boo boys and the occasional scolding from Cantona to keep on taking shots. Forlan is a perfect example of what happens when a striker doesn’t have the nerve and goes into his shell. You can’t say for certain that Torres has the balls to perform after taking the knocks, he is not a beast of a player like Rooney or Tevez who both thrive in a war. Torres is a clean player, he avoids scrambles and bashes from CB’s wherever possible, some would even consider him lightweight in style. This can go two ways. The Reyes way, where he shits himself every time a tackle comes in and cries and whines about it, or the Garcia/Ronaldo way where he just gets up and gets on with it ( the cultural gesticulations aside ) I can see where that could worry people, after all Torres would not come cheap. He’s a £25m+ player and for that kind of money you need special performances from the boy. What is not in doubt, to me at least, is that if he came here and was not a bottler, he would be an absolute success here. His contribution to the way we play would be noticeable immediately. Scholes, Carrick, Rooney and Ronaldo would thrive and between them I think we could take apart any team in the league in an attacking sense.
What some people may ask is what is the difference between Torres and Saha? The most obvious difference off the bat is that Saha is a player who relies a great deal on his strength and aerial prowess he is also very aggressive in style, but in a physical way. Saha, for an injury-prone striker, bizarrely loves to get stuck in. He puts his body into clear and present danger to get on the end of things (how often have you seen him with huge chalk marks on his head and wondered how the hell he got them?) and he does not look to run the line when he can go shoulder to shoulder with a defender on a cross to win a header. Torres on the other hand, avoids physical confrontations wherever possible, he’s a player that gets clean strikes on a ball because he has nipped across a CB from the blind side etc. If they were both boxers one would be a stick and mover and the other would be a bit of a slugger. One would embrace the clinch, the other would not be comfortable – I don’t think you’d ever see Torres going in for 50-50 balls with Terry or Neill etc. Where Saha relishes it, but where Torres has a huge upper-hand is that he has the speed of thought and the movement to get cleanly in front of a CB and get a strike on goal from a ground pass. I also think Torres would draw a fair amount of PK shouts with this facet of his game.
Reality
------------VDS
------Rio---------Brown
G.N-----------------------Heinze
----------Senna
----Carrick
--------------------Scholes
---------Rooney-------------------Ronaldo
------------Saha
Most probably our lot. This is good, where two of the others are great, imo.
A bit longer then I thought it was going to be… :o but I think I got everything in there. To sum up, I’d prefer the Mascherano or Torres route for all the reasons expressed. Feel free to add on anything you think I’ve left out.