7 minus 1 equals...

[DerbyRam54]

There's a U-19 "summer conditioning league" about to start up and I have a couple of assignments to ref. It's for players who will play high school games this fall, but organised by youth teamsand played under proper LOTG not HS rules, with one exception: a player who is cautioned has to spend 10 minutes off the field, and may be replaced (as in HS).
Guidelines issued for the competition suggest that some teams may not have a full side and should borrow players from the other team so a decent match can be played, so I get the impression it's not that formal but also that a YC could actually result in a team playing short-handed for 10 minutes.
So what? you might well ask. My girlfriend/AR however was quick to point out this could be a problem if a team was already down to just 7 players :)
Anybody had to deal with this kind of thing? If it came down to it, would you abandon the match, suggest a temporary transfer of a player or decide that the player would be returning to play and let things continue?
Sometimes I think things are a bit simpler at the higher levels than down on the dirt patches: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sheff_utd/1912208.stm

[refmike]

Since this is as "friendly" as it can get, I suggest you use the transfer procedure if one team has unused subs and consider a cautioned player as "playable" if not. If the latter happens, warn both teams and then abandon if a second player is cautioned.

[Ref Flunkie]

I would address this to the league, as it would be good to have all the referees on the same page so YOU don't do one thing, while the ref next week does another thing.

[usatowin]

There's a U-19 "summer conditioning league" about to start up and I have a couple of assignments to ref. It's for players who will play high school games this fall, but organised by youth teamsand played under proper LOTG not HS rules, with one exception: a player who is cautioned has to spend 10 minutes off the field, and may be replaced (as in HS).
Guidelines issued for the competition suggest that some teams may not have a full side and should borrow players from the other team so a decent match can be played, so I get the impression it's not that formal but also that a YC could actually result in a team playing short-handed for 10 minutes.
So what? you might well ask. My girlfriend/AR however was quick to point out this could be a problem if a team was already down to just 7 players :)
Anybody had to deal with this kind of thing? If it came down to it, would you abandon the match, suggest a temporary transfer of a player or decide that the player would be returning to play and let things continue?
Sometimes I think things are a bit simpler at the higher levels than down on the dirt patches: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sheff_utd/1912208.stm

Are you suggesting that a 7v7 small side game is subject to the 7v7 rule for minimum # of players? It's typically 1/2 + 1, in this case 7/2=3.5+1=4.5 so at least 5, but check with the league. It's definitely not going to be you need 7.

BTW, the cooling off period and free transfers are a red flag. Do these games at your own risk, you won't be under USSF protection.

[NHRef]

I would liken this to a team with 7 players and one goes down injured, but CAN return to the game in a few minutes. You continue playing because the team still has the required 7 players, just at the current moment they are not all on the field, but will be soon.

[DerbyRam54]

Are you suggesting that a 7v7 small side game is subject to the 7v7 rule for minimum # of players? It's typically 1/2 + 1, in this case 7/2=3.5+1=4.5 so at least 5, but check with the league. It's definitely not going to be you need 7.

BTW, the cooling off period and free transfers are a red flag. Do these games at your own risk, you won't be under USSF protection.
The intent is that the games are 11v11, full field etc under normal LOTG apart from this YC import from HS. It's a 4 week season, two games a week for each team, set up to give them some preparation for the HS season since local interscholastic rules have all sorts of prohibitions on pre-season preparation. Players have to be registered and a proper roster issued by the district registrar. No standings are maintained and it's supposed to be played on a cooperative basis. Assigning is done by the local USSF certified assignors. So apart from the YC wrinkle it's just another district league as far as I can see.
The problem with teams playing short arises because of players being on vacation, having summer jobs etc. The local field is about the bare minimum size, so playing with fewer than 22 players usually leads to a better game, especially with U-19 boys.

[usatowin]

The intent is that the games are 11v11, full field etc under normal LOTG apart from this YC import from HS. It's a 4 week season, two games a week for each team, set up to give them some preparation for the HS season since local interscholastic rules have all sorts of prohibitions on pre-season preparation. Players have to be registered and a proper roster issued by the district registrar. No standings are maintained and it's supposed to be played on a cooperative basis. Assigning is done by the local USSF certified assignors. So apart from the YC wrinkle it's just another district league as far as I can see.
The problem with teams playing short arises because of players being on vacation, having summer jobs etc. The local field is about the bare minimum size, so playing with fewer than 22 players usually leads to a better game, especially with U-19 boys.

If the intent is 11v11, US Soccer has adopted 7 players as the minimum and that must be followed, with the exception of a 7th player temporarily off the field. It seems rather silly they'd want this to be 11v11 when it seems that would rarely happen.

[refmike]

BTW, the cooling off period and free transfers are a red flag. Do these games at your own risk, you won't be under USSF protection.
This comment needs to be said again.
I am supprised a USSF assigner is involved while there is a manditory subsitution rule. There was a memo from FIFA and USSF telling us in no uncertain terms that this is not allowed. There is no insurance against lawsuits, no protection if you are attacked for an unpopular call, and no further USSF assignments if the referee administration decides to get nasty about it (not likely but possible).

I suggest you modify the rules (announce it to both coaches before the games) that you cannot require a subsitution on a caution but if the coach requests it, you will comply. I consider it a form of injury subsitution. This is allowed and you are off the hook.

[DerbyRam54]

This comment needs to be said again.
I am supprised a USSF assigner is involved while there is a manditory subsitution rule. There was a memo from FIFA and USSF telling us in no uncertain terms that this is not allowed. There is no insurance against lawsuits, no protection if you are attacked for an unpopular call, and no further USSF assignments if the referee administration decides to get nasty about it (not likely but possible).

I suggest you modify the rules (announce it to both coaches before the games) that you cannot require a subsitution on a caution but if the coach requests it, you will comply. I consider it a form of injury subsitution. This is allowed and you are off the hook.
Good point, I wasn't comfortable with it from the start. I've looked on US Soccer but can't see anything there that deals with it specifically, do you have a link so I can send the competition organiser the details? I'm sure they don't realise that what they're doing is unacceptable.
Otherwise, I think I'll go with your suggestion and if anyone protests it, well the resulting discussion should be interesting!

[usatowin]

Good point, I wasn't comfortable with it from the start. I've looked on US Soccer but can't see anything there that deals with it specifically, do you have a link so I can send the competition organiser the details? I'm sure they don't realise that what they're doing is unacceptable.
Otherwise, I think I'll go with your suggestion and if anyone protests it, well the resulting discussion should be interesting!

Jim Allen's answered that question if you feel like digging and if it's not in FIFA's Q&A I know they've made another official statement on it-somewhere.

[DerbyRam54]

Jim Allen's answered that question if you feel like digging and if it's not in FIFA's Q&A I know they've made another official statement on it-somewhere.
Mercifully it was as recent as April this year. I drew the competition organiser's attention to it, will wait and see what happens. In the meantime, I like RefMike's suggestion.

[DerbyRam54]

Further investigation within the state referee hierarchy reveals that this competition, despite mandating the use of USSF referees and doing the assigning through the usual USSF certified assignors, is in fact considered an unaffiliated league.
I'll do this week's games more as a favour to the local assignor who would probably have a struggle to find a replacement at such short notice but I don't think I'll accept any more. Doesn't seem worth shelling out $94 to get NASO coverage, assuming it would in fact cover me for this. Anybody have any experience with NASO? Does anywhere else have these kind of hybrid unaffilated competitions or is it a Connecticut thing because of the CIAC restrictions?

[refmike]

I often work an unaffiliated women's league who carry their own insurance and a middle school league which is not affiliated with USSF or the high school league. Since the coaches are also teachers, I don't feel I need as much protection but some of the schools are connected with the city and to work these schools I had to become a part time city employee and am now covered by the city's insurance program.

The schedules for these do not conflict with USSF affiliated youth games so the problem of pissing off the local assigners does not come up. That is another concern.

[usatowin]

Further investigation within the state referee hierarchy reveals that this competition, despite mandating the use of USSF referees and doing the assigning through the usual USSF certified assignors, is in fact considered an unaffiliated league.
I'll do this week's games more as a favour to the local assignor who would probably have a struggle to find a replacement at such short notice but I don't think I'll accept any more. Doesn't seem worth shelling out $94 to get NASO coverage, assuming it would in fact cover me for this. Anybody have any experience with NASO? Does anywhere else have these kind of hybrid unaffilated competitions or is it a Connecticut thing because of the CIAC restrictions?

Unaffiliated stuff is all over the place. I know NFHS (high school) offers limited protection to any official registered through them either directly or if your state gives automatic registration. It's something like if the sport is played by your state's schools any game is covered. Not sure if it's just youth or youth and amateur. Definitely not college or pro, not that those aren't covered by themselves.

I wouldn't do any game uninsured. If they gave me the impression the game was sanctioned and I found out it wasn't, I would leave immediately at any point, even the 89th minute. With the NFHS coverage, I'll do a little of the youth stuff, offseason league, preseason tournament, etc. Never adult stuff, those leagues don't have enough control.

[DerbyRam54]

What I don't quite understand is how this competition becomes classed as unaffiliated, given that:
1. it's organised by a district body that is part of the youth soccer structure in the state
2. the players have to have passes issued by the district
3. the team has to have a roster certified by a district official
4. the schedule is drawn up by a district official
5. the competition rules state that the CR must be USSF certified
6. the referee assignments are done by USSF certified assignors
7. the teams all appear to be entered by clubs that are part of the district

Other than the "hot head" rule (introduced apparently because these casual, friendly conditioning games have a tendency to get overheated!), I'm not seeing a lot of difference between this and the recently concluded spring district leagues!

[refmike]

What I don't quite understand is how this competition becomes classed as unaffiliated, given that:
1. it's organised by a district body that is part of the youth soccer structure in the state
2. the players have to have passes issued by the district
3. the team has to have a roster certified by a district official
4. the schedule is drawn up by a district official
5. the competition rules state that the CR must be USSF certified
6. the referee assignments are done by USSF certified assignors
7. the teams all appear to be entered by clubs that are part of the district

Other than the "hot head" rule (introduced apparently because these casual, friendly conditioning games have a tendency to get overheated!), I'm not seeing a lot of difference between this and the recently concluded spring district leagues!

The competition does not become classed as unaffiliated.
The organizers, the "summer conditioning league", are not registered with USSF or USYSA and are not bound by the rules of these organizations. The participation of registered district officials is outside their duties and does not change that fact. I am not sure that each of your items above is accurate but as a point, a USSF certified ref in the center insures that he knows how to ref but he should not wear his USSF badge while working an unaffiliated game. Also, if players have passes from their USYSA clubs, that does not mean that this game is sanctioned by USYSA.

I am not sure how this works in your area but until a few years ago, the spring games in my area were not sanctioned and supported by the clubs. Indivudal coaches recruted the refs and paid them at the field. More recently the clubs began organizing the spring games and we are now assigned by the league and paid at the end of the season. So some spring games are not sanctioned but we do them anyway since it is still for the kids. Just be sure to keep the game under control or terminate early to avoid any lawsuits for which you are not insured.

[DerbyRam54]

The competition does not become classed as unaffiliated.
The organizers, the "summer conditioning league", are not registered with USSF or USYSA and are not bound by the rules of these organizations. The participation of registered district officials is outside their duties and does not change that fact. I am not sure that each of your items above is accurate but as a point, a USSF certified ref in the center insures that he knows how to ref but he should not wear his USSF badge while working an unaffiliated game. Also, if players have passes from their USYSA clubs, that does not mean that this game is sanctioned by USYSA.

I am not sure how this works in your area but until a few years ago, the spring games in my area were not sanctioned and supported by the clubs. Indivudal coaches recruted the refs and paid them at the field. More recently the clubs began organizing the spring games and we are now assigned by the league and paid at the end of the season. So some spring games are not sanctioned but we do them anyway since it is still for the kids. Just be sure to keep the game under control or terminate early to avoid any lawsuits for which you are not insured.
I spoke this morning with the state youth soccer association and they assured me that the competition was recognised and sanctioned by them, so it just gets more confusing in my mind.

[usatowin]

I spoke this morning with the state youth soccer association and they assured me that the competition was recognised and sanctioned by them, so it just gets more confusing in my mind.

Competitions can be sanctioned by your state association or US Club Soccer, there might be another body. AYSO and SAY are separate with their own ref certifications. It is possible that the ref admin you talked to simply has an outdated list or they meant you're covered, but the games don't count for your grade. If you talked to a proper authority in your state association and not, say, the club registrar who says they're a state admin, but really does nothing beyond your own club, then you should be good.

[DerbyRam54]

Jim Allen's response was to go with the competition rules even where it conflicts with FIFA LOTG. The only exception (and this is per the SRA) would be if the competition called for the dreaded dual system of control, that is beyond the pale.
The laugh in all this is that in the 2 games I've done, none of the coaches have been aware of the competition rule and haven't seemed happy with it.