at what point do you toss a coach?

[Wreave]

At a tournament this weekend, I was AR on a GU16 game where the coach got tossed. It was a consolation game between the losers of two previous quarterfinal games. At about the 73rd, minute, things started to get ugly. White was up 4-2 over blue. On a collision between the white keeper and a blue attacker, the white keeper was cautioned but not sent off (correctly as there were about 8 players in the PA at the time). A PK was awarded to blue and converted to make it 4-3. Prior to the kickoff the blue coach was sent off. It was on the opposite side from me, but apparently he had been testy all game, had been screaming for a red on the white keeper (instead of a yellow), and the CR (an 07) finally had enough. White got two more cautions in the next five minutes, but held on for the win.

On a game the previous day, I elected to NOT send off a coach that probably deserved it, in a GU16 quarterfinal (not either the same teams as on this game). His sideline had been loud and yelling at me the whole game. I had been tuning them out, which made things worse at least once when they were trying to get my attention for an injury. Regardless, in stoppage time the white team had driven the ball to the corner and was trying to turn (white was up 2-1). A blue defender kept bumping her from behind, but I was trying to give white a chance to turn when blue finally knocked her over. Apparently as she fell, her arm flew out. A parent started screaming that she threw a punch at the blue player. My AR on that side (an 07) was at midfield with a good angle, and didn't agree. The coach was yelling too, and as I walked toward him, he took off his glasses and offered them to me. I cautioned him ("Not another word, coach,") and the Venue Director showed up so I went back to the game. Thirty seconds later it was over. My rationale for not tossing the coach was that, with 30 seconds left, it wasn't going to buy me anything, and would probably just make things worse after the game (for everyone). In retrospect, I wish I would have cautioned him far earlier, but I was trying to let the girls play (I didn't have to hand out any cards, and though the game did get a little chippy towards the end it was overall well-played and the team that dominated the attack did win).

I do try to manage my games with all the tools I have, and it's a rare game where I even have these kinds of issues. However, I would be interested to hear about some coaches that either got tossed, should have gotten tossed, or got really close to getting tossed. It might help me in the future.

[Law5]

If the coach has been yelling at you "the whole game," it is clear that he should have gone. Coaches are dismissed for failing to "conduct themselves in a responsible manner." That isn't a standard that requires them to be super bad before they are sent. From what you say, it clearly was dissent. One warning ("work with me here, coach") in an attempt to remind him that you (the referee and the coaches) are the adults here, then goodbye. Just one other suggestion: A statement like "One more word coach, and its a card." can backfire on you. What if he says "Sorry, ref," and then turns to his assistant and smirks, "But then, I guess that's two words." Do you really want to write in your report that you sent him for saying that he's sorry?
"Never get angry, never make a threat, reason with people." Don Vito Corleone.

[Gary V]

The coach was yelling too, and as I walked toward him, he took off his glasses and offered them to me. I cautioned him ...
Sounds fairly reasonable to me. I know officially we "warn" and "dismiss" coaches (not caution and send off). And that there is only one reason to discipline a coach, "not behaving in a responsible manner". Still, we are often asked to explain what we do to a coach in the same way we report players - dissent, USB, OFFINABUS, etc. If a player says, "Ref, are you blind?" are we going to red card him? That's not abuse, that's dissent. Same for the coach, as long as the words don't cross the line. Now, if he offered you his glasses after you said No More, then it could be a second dissent and a send-off.

In your first example that I snipped, you possibly didn't hear the words across the field that made it necessary to dismiss the coach. It was either more than dissent or multiple dissent.

[Ref Flunkie]

With your case, it sounds like an earlier "caution" may have helped things a bit, or at the very least an attempt to calm the sidelines down. You (IMO) were right to ignore the parents in general, even if it made you miss an injured player (I doubt getting her medical attention 1 min later due to you missing it caused her any further injury). Obviously, if they were too unruly, you were within your right to tell the coach to calm them down. ANYWAYS, I don't think I would have tossed to coach at the point you cautioned him, and it seems like you handled it well enough (as you say, it was the end of the game). However, I am not one to put up with 90 minutes of abuse from a coach and/or parents. If they have a legit beef or concern, I will talk to them calmly if they act the same with me. If they are just being a jerk to be one, I see no problem putting them on notice early and "cautioning" or "sending them off" with each subsequent misconduct. Without knowing the specifics of the yelling, etc. I can't say when I would have gone through the ritual of warning, cautioning, ejecting the coach and/or parents.

As for my one tossed coach story (only one I've had), it was I think like a U-14 girls team with a female coach. Her team was being easily beaten 3-0 or so, but she was yelling at the top of her lungs that her team was being tortured or something (to be honest, the game was a premier game, and wasn't even close to being physical). She just wouldn't stop complaining (I can't recall what she even said in general, just your standard stuff). However, it was obviously effecting the players so I warned her, cautioned her, warned her AGAIN (probably should have just skipped this) and then finally tossed her. She almost wouldn't leave, so I told her she had one minute to get to her car or the game was done, and I just stood there and watched my watch. She finally left after one of her players said reasonably loud "can we just play". Rest of the game went on without incident, even though her assistant coach seemed scared of me (even though I was perfectly nice to her after the ejection). It was one of those strange "what the heck is wrong with this person" instances where she was really the only person complaining and I had no idea why.

[bluedevils]

At what point do you toss a coach? Much sooner than we as referees are accustomed to doing. Too often, and at all levels of the game from early youth to professional, we allow coaches to exhibit totally inappropriate behavior and get away with it. We ignore too much and avoid dealing with it, for various reasons. It can be tricky to deal with troublesome coaches without making things worse, but it needs to be done more often than we are doing nowadays.

[nylaw5]

At the same time, many referees at the youth level are very used to throwing coaches out as soon as they feel the coach has crossed the line.

I don't disagree that a coach who has become more of a spectical then the game itself must leave. That is the criteria I use. However sometimes there can be a lot gained by stopping the match, taking a nice slow walk over and calmy explaining that although the tension is high, if his behavior continues in this way, then you will be forced to ask them to leave. If its rec or lower premier level this will sometimes calm things down.

Remember that it is emotions that take over and not a "hatred of referees". Especially in a quaterfinal or consolation match there are a lot of outside influences that culminate in a coach screaming at the referee.

I guess the moral of the story is try a little empathy first.....THEN pitch them out if they continue to distract.

[bluedevils]

Agreed. In most cases, the ref's first contact with the coach should not be a notification that the coach is being dismissed! There should be some discussion / warning / etc. before the ref reaches the point at which the coach needs to be tossed.

It just sucks to see coaches spoiling the game and taking away from what the players are doing on such a regular basis, and referees turning a blind eye because they don't want to deal with it or because they think the right way to 'deal with it' is to tolerate it.

[Spaceball]

I agree that at the professional level we can allow the coach more latitude. Even then we have been instructed to crack down on that this year.

However, we are talking about YOUTH soccer. I see little reason to let grown adults go on and on for 70-90 minutes. All they are doing is setting a bad example for all of the kids on the team. I disagree with the original poster's comment that he didn't get anything by dismissing the coach. This is not about game control and getting something for your cards. This is as much about teaching teenagers what is acceptable. Have you ever noticed that well-bahaved coaches tend to have well-behaved parents and players. I believe you would have gained something by dismissing the coach. You would have shown the kids what is acceptable. Now that coach believes he was within his bounds to berate the referee as do his players and parents and they will continue to do this in the future. We have to set that standard and show that it is not right.

Don't get me wrong, I believe a coach has a right to argue...but argue and move on. Don't dwell on it for 90 minutes and certainly to cross the line to attacks on referees. If the coach is spending more time talking to or about the referee than he is his talking to or about his team, there is no question that behavior needs to be stopped.

End of rant, but referee dissent by parents, players, and coaches in yuth soccer is my big pet peeve. Maybe that is why I have dismissed many coaches and parents.

[refontherun]

At what point do you toss a coach? Much sooner than we as referees are accustomed to doing. Too often, and at all levels of the game from early youth to professional, we allow coaches to exhibit totally inappropriate behavior and get away with it. We ignore too much and avoid dealing with it, for various reasons. It can be tricky to deal with troublesome coaches without making things worse, but it needs to be done more often than we are doing nowadays.

Working in a good sized association with a limited ref pool, there are coaches you know are going to be a handfull the day you get your assignment.

I had a game with U-12 coach that I have dealt with before who I knew was one of these. Before the game, I approached him and gave him the standard "tactical instructions to your players" speech. When I finished, I asked, "Do you understand?" He replied, "I hear you." "Yes, but do you understand?" He glared at me and in an almost angry tone spouted, "I UNDERSTAND!" I replied, "Coach, another outburst like that, and you will not see this game." and walked away." The rest of the game, if he even started to step over the line of verbal misconduct, a simple "stop" signal with my hand would at least shut him up on the outside.

I agree that we need to start ejecting coaches for behaving badly. I have been a youth coach and know the degee of respect that many of these youth have for their coaches, and rightly so. That is the reason coaches need to be held to a higher standard of conduct when it comes to respecting the authority of officials. Youth (and their parents) see this bad behavior and, because they see the coach get away with it, they think it's acceptable. That is one reason we see 16 and 18 year olds berating referees from the bench.

The problem is consistancy. If one referee allows a coach to cross the line and not be punished, the next one is in for a world of s**t when he tries to do the right thing. Once coaches see that these ejections are commonplace, for the right reasons, and handled in a consistant manner, only then will we see a decrease in this type of behavior.

[usatowin]

I agree that at the professional level we can allow the coach more latitude. Even then we have been instructed to crack down on that this year.

Seems to me it's the professional level we're tolerating the least at and letting the youth coaches get away with anything short of murder, except maybe for foul language.

[NHRef]

I asked this very question last year in a recert clinic, I've never tossed a coach, well not yet :o

The answer I got was the "3 strike principal":

Strike 1) You go over, never run, walk, or time it for when you are there. Just warn, "that's enough coach", or "you coach, let us ref" something along those lines.

Strike 2) Same warning more stern, maybe if an assistant is there say to him "If I have to come over again, you will become the coach" (not sure I agreed with this, it's along the lines of a threat)

Strike 3) Third time over, coach is dismissed.

I've never gotten to #3, usually I can get my point across with #1, but I am sure the day is coming. Unfortunately.

I will second the statement that polite coaches have polite teams/parents and loud/dissenting coaches have loud/dissenting teams/parents.

[Claymore]

I've been in more than a few tournaments where we were told by the tournament director to crack down on sideline dissent, especially in the first round.

NHRef's guidelines look good.

[Ref Flunkie]

I asked this very question last year in a recert clinic, I've never tossed a coach, well not yet :o

The answer I got was the "3 strike principal":

Strike 1) You go over, never run, walk, or time it for when you are there. Just warn, "that's enough coach", or "you coach, let us ref" something along those lines.

Strike 2) Same warning more stern, maybe if an assistant it there say to him "If I have to come over again, you will become the coach" (not sure I agreed with this, it's along the lines of a threat)

Strike 3) Third time over, coach is dismissed.

I've never gotten to #3, usually I can get my point across with #1, but I am sure the day is coming. Unfortunately.

I will second the statement that polite coaches have polite teams/parents and loud/dissenting coaches have loud/dissenting teams/parents.

I think there is a difference between a threat to a player (You will be carded if you do this again!) and one to a coach. I see no problem with giving them ultimadiums in respect to their behavior. I also agree with the group that in general we put up with much too much from coaches and parents.

[NHRef]

Another thought I had, was that many times the coach is trying to find the line, or just seeing if he can say anything, a stern warning and he gets the idea. However, some just like to yell.

One instance, especially for those of us who do youth, especially with younger ARs, protect young ARs like a rabid mother dog!! No slack at all, get em hard and get them fast. Many times, as an AR I have had a coach start in with me, mostly venting cause the CR was ignoring him, I just blow them off, but keep in mind that the AR is somewhat captive to his position, he can't get away from the coach if the flow of play dictates he stay there. In the cases where this is a young/junior AR, as the CR, you need to be aware of this and be VERY fast to put an end to it. Same with the parent side.

My tolerance level drops FAST AND DRAMATICALLY when you go after one of my ARs especially a kid, and heaven help you if it happens to be one of my sons :eek:

[Val1]

I will second the statement that polite coaches have polite teams/parents and loud/dissenting coaches have loud/dissenting teams/parents.

Truest words I've read posted here today.

[Statesman]

My observations on dealing with coaches:

1) Stop problems before they start.

It doesn't take long to judge the demeaner of a coach, be it friendly, quiet, boisterous, or hostile. If you anticipate the coach might be a hanful, set the tone with him/her early on. It's ok to allow grumblings or an occassional disagreement, but draw a firm line when the coach starts questioning your judgement.

2) Use theatrics to make a point.

Not talking Shakespere here, just using the field as a stage from which you present. There's a difference between a quick warning while running by the sideline as part of the natural flow of play, and holding up a restart to jog across the field to tell the coach to chill. Determine the appropriate impact you wish to make, then use theatrics to make that impact.

3) Be fair, firm, and consistent.

Be fair in how firm you deal with the coach, applying a level appropriate for the behavior you wish to correct. Then maintain that level consistently, and step it up as needed. Once you've stepped up the level of firmness, don't back down later. Start with a glare, shake of the head, quick word, loud warning, then dismissal (or whatever spectrum you wish), just don't back down as the game progresses.

4) Talking to the coach should be short and sweet.

One sentence kept direct is all you need. Anything more and you justify the coach arguing. You aren't there to have a conversation, you're there to enforce the laws of the game. Tell the coach to pipe down, and leave it at that.

5) Never be the one to start a conversation.

Speak when spoken to, otherwise why risk provocation? I've had coaches that only want to say hello at the start, take care of the pre- and post-game administration, then part ways without a word in-between. I'm certainly not going to engage them if I don't have to!

And most importantly:

6) Be the one in charge

Deal with problems as they arise and stay in control of the game. Ignoring most comments is fine, but ignoring comments that affect the game is not. Rest assurred that you are perfectly within your authority to take whatever steps you deem necessary to ensure appropriate sideline behavior is observed.

[macheath]

I think there is a difference between a threat to a player (You will be carded if you do this again!) and one to a coach. I see no problem with giving them ultimadiums in respect to their behavior. I also agree with the group that in general we put up with much too much from coaches and parents.

Specific threats ("if you do X, you will be dismissed") should be avoided, with players or coaches, as that can lead to hair-splitting over the next behavior. But conditional statements ("that kind of behavior can lead to a card/dismissal") can be used, you still have an out. Although I think you can find other ways to get the point across.

Also, you need to judge when the coach's behavior is affecting the game, and not just irritating you. Americans are used to ragging refs and umpires, and I try to tune it out as much as possible. Abuse of your ARs must be stopped cold, especially if they are younger. Comments directed to opponents have to be stopped quickly, and any racist or other abuse must be dealt with immediately and firmly (racist comments get a dismissal immediately, zero tolerance).

[david58]

Another thought I had, was that many times the coach is trying to find the line, or just seeing if he can say anything, a stern warning and he gets the idea. However, some just like to yell.

One instance, especially for those of us who do youth, especially with younger ARs, protect young ARs like a rabid mother dog!! No slack at all, get em hard and get them fast. Many times, as an AR I have had a coach start in with me, mostly venting cause the CR was ignoring him, I just blow them off, but keep in mind that the AR is somewhat captive to his position, he can't get away from the coach if the flow of play dictates he stay there. In the cases where this is a young/junior AR, as the CR, you need to be aware of this and be VERY fast to put an end to it. Same with the parent side.

My tolerance level drops FAST AND DRAMATICALLY when you go after one of my ARs especially a kid, and heaven help you if it happens to be one of my sons :eek:

As AR, sometimes just signalling to the CR to delay a restart, and when he does so, turn to face the coach. Now he's no longer talking to your a**, and can hear you carefully when you tell him to pipe down. If that doesn't work, call the center over and get it done.

When I have young ARs, I like to emphasize that they are to get my attention if there is any problem with parents or coaches. I do not tolerate folks working on youth ARs when I am the center, or working on youth centers when I am AR.:mad:

Funny, my son likes to ref on the AR2 side when we are doing games with hispanic teams. He doesn't speak Spanish, and likes the fact that he doesn't understand what they're saying to him.:D

[Ref Flunkie]

Specific threats ("if you do X, you will be dismissed") should be avoided, with players or coaches, as that can lead to hair-splitting over the next behavior. But conditional statements ("that kind of behavior can lead to a card/dismissal") can be used, you still have an out. Although I think you can find other ways to get the point across.


Eh, I don't consider "Next time I come over here you are gone" to be specific as far as behavior, and it still gives you leeway to determine when you go over. The coach knows that he is on a tight rope already.


Statesman, my one question to you is about your theatrics comment, could you explain that a bit more? Are you suggesting we do something similar to that when we deal with players, doing the whole "no more" signal with the hands while you talk to them so everyone sees the point of the discussion? Or is it something I am missing?

[Statesman]

Statesman, my one question to you is about your theatrics comment, could you explain that a bit more? Are you suggesting we do something similar to that when we deal with players, doing the whole "no more" signal with the hands while you talk to them so everyone sees the point of the discussion? Or is it something I am missing?Use whatever theatrics you need to use to convey the severity of the warning. I'll refrain from giving specifics because oftentimes it depends on the personality and appearance of the individual referee. Personally I give a pretty convincing glare, but I know referees who couldn't scare a small child. As I stated before, if you make it a point to hold up the game to warn the coach it conveys a more serious tone than simply a short warning while in the area.

Just make sure that whatever actions you take to enforce your warning are appropriate to the offense. As the old addage goes, "only do the least required to keep the game in control."