US needs minority programs??

[superdave]

I can't help but think superdave that your missing the point. It's not about representation or anything like that. It's about fully developing ALL of the players we have here in the USA. If the USMNT is 95% black, but wins a World Cup, who cares, as long as it is truly the best American team we can put out there. If the USMNT is 95% White, but is the best American team we can put out there, and it wins it all, the same applies who cares.

This isn't like some affirmative action thing, where the team has to roughly represent the demographics of the USA, but rather about finding and developing all the talent available to us here. And when people discuss better minority programs, it's because they feel they are just scratching the surface of the potential that's there (when you think about all the immigrants who come from soccer-crazy countries and African-Americans). Just because there happens to be 4 African-Americans on the WC roster doesn't mean the manager and/or US Soccer can just say, "OK, we've tapped that talent pool as represented by the black demographic here in the US, lets move on to the next one."

No, you're missing MY point.

THESIS: We need to do a better job of identifying talented black players, because we're missing too many.
ANTITHESIS: But how can that be, when blacks are already on the National team at double their ratio in the population.
SYNTHESIS: Whoops.

I'm not trying to make it about affirmative action. I'm trying to get people to explain why they think an ethnic group, in this case black Americans, are somehow underrepresented based on the talent they have, when they are waaaay OVERrepresented based on numbers.

Interesting fact...what is the most common characteristic of people worth $5M?

Answer: their parents were rich. Why might that be? Well, it's pretty easy to figure out.

But people saying we're missing too many black players are implicitly saying that blacks should be on the Nats at 3-4-5 times their prevalence in the population. Why might that be? That's the question I want someone, anyone, to address.

[superdave]

Really? Nunez was a undocumented worker?
No, his family had permanent residence status, but were/are not citizens. That's why I used him as an example of a green card holder who couldn't play for our Baby Nats.

[superdave]

While no one says it in a straight-forward way, there are definitely some racial aspects to the whole idea that the USMNT needs more minorities to win.

You can see it in the numerous media mentions that soccer doesn't get the "good athletes like ..." and then they name three or four well-known black basketball and football players.

You also read it here on BS a lot, when people complain about "suburban" players (as if no minorities live in the suburbs).

You can definitely see it in Nike's marketing of the sport -- white suburban players are NEVER shown.

It seems that people like Gulati are almost apologizing for the fact that the World Cup squad had white athletes (perhaps because it's such a rare sight).

All this reminds me of the furor over the lack of African-Americans in baseball, and the hand-wringing and PC commitments made by baseball's leadership to try and attract young blacks.

No one ever dare say that perhaps African-American kids would simply rather play another sport! No, it must be someone's "fault" and there must be a "solution."
You have more courage than me. You come out and say what I suspect is true, but am just tryng to get people to discuss.

[ThreeApples]

All this reminds me of the furor over the lack of African-Americans in baseball, and the hand-wringing and PC commitments made by baseball's leadership to try and attract young blacks.

No one ever dare say that perhaps African-American kids would simply rather play another sport! No, it must be someone's "fault" and there must be a "solution."For baseball, a lot of it has to do with it having lost a segment of the market that it once had and wanting to regain it. Also, there has been the criticism that MLB teams have invested lots of money developing young talent among poor populations, but they do so in the Dominican Republic rather than our own American cities.

Reaching out to youth who don't have a reason to want to play seems like more of a PR move than a growth strategy to me. Why does Gulati focus on African-Americans? What about poor rural whites or Asian-Americans??They shouldn't just target black people, but it's a better use of resources to target urban centers rather than rural areas, simply because of the difference in population.

[numerista]

But if blacks are more likely to be missed, why do they make up such a high portion of the national team?

... after making up such a low portion of Division One college soccer players. Don't deny these individuals credit for their achievements.

Are blacks superathletes, so that being double represented indicates they're getting the short end of the stick?

Put down your comic books; there's no such thing as a superathlete; we're all human beings.

Q: Why does the French national team have so many players with origins in Sub-Saharan Africa?

A: It doesn't matter why; however, if members of a group are disproportionately successful -- like African-American soccer players have been -- it's natural to want to attract more of them to the sport.

[Larry Dallas redded]

but it's a better use of resources to target urban centers rather than rural areas, simply because of the difference in population.

Really?

Who are the player's we've discovered out of the barrios of LA or Bed-Stuy?

[ThreeApples]

Really?

Who are the player's we've discovered out of the barrios of LA or Bed-Stuy?What does that have to do with the assertion that it is more cost-effective to have development programs in areas that have more people?

[Larry Dallas redded]

What does that have to do with the assertion that it is more cost-effective to have development programs in areas that have more people?

This assumes that there are tons of people there that are just dying to play soccer, if they only had a patch of grass.

Bad assumption.

[mtr8967]

... after making up such a low portion of Division One college soccer players. Don't deny these individuals credit for their achievements.

Is that really the route to the USMNT? I haven't researched it but my impression is we're heavily dependent on Bradenton and the national youth teams, probably more so than any other country.

I do think Dave has a point; if a black kid is twice as likely to make the USMNT as a white kid why should we think they're at a disadvantage? But I must admit you also have a point: if doing something yields us good players then we should keep doing it even if we can't explain why.

Frankly, I think the US needs more programs, period. I want lots of kids to get good training, minority or not.

[JohnR]

You have more courage than me. You come out and say what I suspect is true, but am just tryng to get people to discuss.

Dave -

Frequently, you are the hugest prick on these boards. You are arrogant to the point of stupidity. You hound people. You are annoying as hell.

You had plenty of courage on this thread, though, and for that I will give you full credit. In fact, I will give everybody on this thread full credit, because this is a controversial subject as hell, and for the most part people have been very, very respectful.

[ThreeApples]

This assumes that there are tons of people there that are just dying to play soccer, if they only had a patch of grass.

Bad assumption.OK, so we'll find more people who want to play soccer if we go to places with fewer people?

[Larry Dallas redded]

OK, so we'll find more people who want to play soccer if we go to places with fewer people?

Maybe we could start looking where people are playing soccer. Focusing on the "urban", means you're not paying any attention to the other 97.5% of the United States, where we have previously developed 99.99999% of our players.

I mean, if the MFL clubs are scouting everyone one horse town in rural Georgia, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Texas to find any kid with a tie to Mexico, shouldn't we be doing the same to find those kids who are either citizens or eligible for citizenship?

[ThreeApples]

Maybe we could start looking where people are playing soccer. Focusing on the "urban", means you're not paying any attention to the other 97.5% of the United States, where we have previously developed 99.99999% of our players.I was talking about places where new programs can be developed. The places that have developed our players already already have these programs and should continue. And 97.5% of the population lives outside of urban areas?

I mean, if the MFL clubs are scouting everyone one horse town in rural Georgia, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Texas to find any kid with a tie to Mexico, shouldn't we be doing the same to find those kids who are either citizens or eligible for citizenship?I wasn't talking about scouting, I was talking about developing new youth programs. But can you name two successful pro players who were scouted out of one-horse towns in the US by Mexican clubs?

[onefineesq]

Dave -

Frequently, you are the hugest prick on these boards. You are arrogant to the point of stupidity. You hound people. You are annoying as hell.

You had plenty of courage on this thread, though, and for that I will give you full credit. In fact, I will give everybody on this thread full credit, because this is a controversial subject as hell, and for the most part people have been very, very respectful. What people don't want to deal with is opportunity. If the opportunity is roughly equal in each community, then let the chips fall where they may. I played soccer as a kid, but I was fortunate enough to be in a relatively high income family out in a suburban area of Long Island. I was one of about 6 black people in the entire middle/high school. When I visited my relatives in the city, none of them played soccer because there was no opportunity to play soccer and therefore they knew nothing about the game. I played soccer because it was presented to the community that i lived in.

Daves argument is seriously flawed in that he equates "over-representation" with fair treatment and equal opportunity. Since there are more than 13% blacks on the team, they are over-represented and therefore there should be no complaints ...... that's basically the argument. While he attempts to catch people in some circular argument, I've yet to see him address the NBA situation. In a sport where essentially anyone with a round ball can pick up and play because of the proliferation of basketball courts, the NBA has over-representation of Blacks. Surely, he doesn't believe in scaling down the participation of Black players. Almost as surely, I would suspect that he doesn't believe white players don't have equal access to the game of basketball. So what's the answer? Again, the answer really is simple. Present the game to all areas and let the chips fall where they may. That's what happened in basketball. But if that means that in the sport of soccer in the US, that we'll end up with 90% whites playing, great. If it means 90% latinos, great. If it means 90% blacks, great. I couldn't care less, as long as there is a semblance of equal opportunity to the game at the youth levels. The focus shouldn't be on Dave's contrived quota system. The focus should be on best delivering the opportunity to grow in this sport, to all people. And quite simply, there is a disparity in opportunity.

Is anyone seriously debating that inner cities/lower income areas (areas that are "over-represented" by minorities) are being served to the level of areas that are more "over-represented" by whites? If the USSF believes that those areas ARE underserved (by comparison), then there is a problem regardless of what the final numbers on a particular team may be.

[glove]

Why will Sunil not search the streets for Asian players and go to the reservations to set up programs for Native Americans? I think Sunils choice of words was poorly chosen. Had he said he would go to economically challenged areas maybe he draws less ire. Seriously if Sunil has any pull why would he not look at a kid like Rossi at ManU and at least ask try to see what his feelings are about representing the US. Sunil ought to comb the NY metro for sons of Italian immigrants like those two sons of butchers from the Disney soccer movie with Mike Ditka...

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Let's separate blacks and Hispanics. Hispanics, I've got no argument.

But if blacks are more likely to be missed, why do they make up such a high portion of the national team? Are blacks superathletes, so that being double represented indicates they're getting the short end of the stick?

No, you're missing MY point.

THESIS: We need to do a better job of identifying talented black players, because we're missing too many.
ANTITHESIS: But how can that be, when blacks are already on the National team at double their ratio in the population.
SYNTHESIS: Whoops.

I'm not trying to make it about affirmative action. I'm trying to get people to explain why they think an ethnic group, in this case black Americans, are somehow underrepresented based on the talent they have, when they are waaaay OVERrepresented based on numbers.

Interesting fact...what is the most common characteristic of people worth $5M?

Answer: their parents were rich. Why might that be? Well, it's pretty easy to figure out.

But people saying we're missing too many black players are implicitly saying that blacks should be on the Nats at 3-4-5 times their prevalence in the population. Why might that be? That's the question I want someone, anyone, to address.



Blacks are "overrepresented" in the NFL, NBA, MLB(if you count black Hispanics),Track,and probably some others I can't think of at the moment.

I don't know nor care of they are superathletes, or just have the traditional motivation many minorities have had to use sports to better their prospects(for example, Irish boxers in the past).

But I would contend that like Hispanics are not culturally in tune with stuff like ODP, blacks of "US" ancestry are not as culturally in tune with playing soccer as other sports, if they don't play, they are going to be missed.

I might have been the greatist pianist of all time,we will never know because I never took up the piano.:)

It is also possible we should discount guys like Gibbs and Gooch, of non US ancestry when you are discussing "overrepresentation".

[patt2374]

If he wants to do something about this "problem", the thing I'd have him advocate is more soccer pitches in urban areas. There's basketball courts everywhere.

The urban model of a football pitch is a fenced in area (high fences to prevent lost balls), on a pitch of small smooth sandy rocks that requires little maintence. I've seen tons of those in Italy. My city, Hartford, has been getting a lot of immigrants from Albania and Bosnia the past few years. There's a park near where I live, and in there is a grass soccer field. HOWEVER, those Bosnian kids always play on the TENNIS COURTS, because they are used to fenced in areas where they can play small pickup games.

This model is used in South America, Africa, Europe, etc. Yet I haven't seen one in the USA.
Hope the refs are not SERBS.

[Metros#1]

You're not very well read...I even put "Modest Proposal" in caps to clue everyone in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

Why do we need a minority program for blacks when THEY'RE ALREADY OVERREPRESENTED? Again, the only explanation I can think of is if one thinks blacks are natural athletes, and should have MORE than twice their percentage in the general population on the national team.

I just happen to think race is a social construct, therefore, if someone looks at a national team that by lot would have ~2.75 blacks, but instead has 5.5 (Tim Howard) blacks, and sees a shortage of blacks, well, that person needs to be educated.

But the problem isn't a lack of black players. The problem is a lack of white players and Hispanics. But especially white players. It's literally silly to argue we need to target the black American population. Hispanics, OK. But blacks?

Again, what would satisfy you people, if the Nats were 3 times blacker than the general population? 4 times? What?So I missed you meek attempt of being funny. You must be really proud.

You like to post and banter but you run away from real points.
1. It’s not about race and percentage of “representation” it’s about ECONOMY HARDSHIP. Many minority youngsters can use more help to play sports, and some of them can excel and become future stars. Minority programs can only help.
2. As I mentioned before, there’s NOTHING wrong if USMNT becomes France MNT 2nd. It’s our national team regardless of ethnic make-up. Who cares about over-representation.

Your silence on these two points is deafening.

[dark knight]

No, you're missing MY point.

THESIS: We need to do a better job of identifying talented black players, because we're missing too many.
ANTITHESIS: But how can that be, when blacks are already on the National team at double their ratio in the population.
SYNTHESIS: Whoops.

I'm not trying to make it about affirmative action. I'm trying to get people to explain why they think an ethnic group, in this case black Americans, are somehow underrepresented based on the talent they have, when they are waaaay OVERrepresented based on numbers.

Interesting fact...what is the most common characteristic of people worth $5M?

Answer: their parents were rich. Why might that be? Well, it's pretty easy to figure out.

But people saying we're missing too many black players are implicitly saying that blacks should be on the Nats at 3-4-5 times their prevalence in the population. Why might that be? That's the question I want someone, anyone, to address.

I think there are some folks engaging in the - what if Barry Sanders played soccer game - which is perhaps what leads them down that road. The fact is - we might not find any more Eddie Johnsons no matter how hard we looked, given the popularity of the sport and how it's viewed. But it still begs the question I asked you earlier, why do you feel black players are over-represented as a group currently? Inherent bias by the selecting coaches? Something else? Why should we say - X group has plenty of representation so we're done? This isn't a college that seeks diversity as a goal. I agree with the sentiment expressed by someone earlier who values the diverse makeup of our team, but if our best team is made up entirely of Hmong folks, I'd want us to play that team. Speaking of which, are asians adequately represented as a % of the population? :p

[MrBojanglesASillyCat]

Why dont u pull out the race card dark night. Youre flipping out b/c superdave mentioned black people.In other words, youre a scared b*tch about races. All he's saying is there is a larger percentage of blacks on the US national team then the percentage of blacks in this country. In shorter words they are disproportionately represented. But that doesnt tell us much, does it? If he would have said disproportionate, then some people reading this would not know whether he meant there are less black people on the us team then representative of the population or more black people on the us team representative of the population.

The short way of saying this is....*gasp* Blacks are overrepresented on the US roster.

Also blacks underepresent the number of soccer players in this country. Because your stupid, Ill translate this one too. There is a lesser percentage of blacks playing soccer then the percentage of whites playing soccer.

Another topic discussed in this thread: Latinos are under-represented on the US national team (and since your stupid I will write the whole thing out) by percentage of those who play compared to the percentage of those on the United States of America National Team (not sure if I have to include the word Men's when referring to the USMNT or if youll cry sexism)

Is this even close to as bad as David Chapelle? (o wait, its impossible for black people to be racist:rolleyes: )

Be a man.

O yea, one more thing. So its ok for some posters on this board to say that hispanics are underrepresented, but its not ok for some posters to say that blacks are overrepresented? Are you out of your f*cking mind? Quit ur drama qeen nonsense and grow up.

I just explained a very simple concept. Was it really necessary or could anyone have figured it out on their own?

Uh oh...the moderator might screw me over b/c ive challenged, much like he challenged superdave. This should be fun