World Cup final ref explains ZZ red

[USSF REF]

World Cup final ref explains ZZ red (http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/5782586)

This article doesn't have all the info that we all want. But hey, it's something.

[Sagy]

Thanks.

A somewhat related question
Cantalejo informed referee's assistant Dario Garcia, who in turn told Elizondo what had happened.
Is the "chain" of information limited to the 4(5) officails or is the CR allowed to question/get information from someone else?

For example:
Green Player(GP) is bleeding from the nose, near the touch line.
AR to Purple Player(PP) what happened?
PP to CR, GP called me a *** so I punched him.

Is the AR allowed to tell this to the CR?
Can the CR, within the LOTG, show PP a red card?

[USRef]

Thanks.

A somewhat related question

Is the "chain" of information limited to the 4(5) officails or is the CR allowed to question/get information from someone else?

For example:
Green Player(GP) is bleeding from the nose, near the touch line.
AR to Purple Player(PP) what happened?
PP to CR, GP called me a *** so I punched him.

Is the AR allowed to tell this to the CR?
Can the CR, within the LOTG, show PP a red card?

In this situation, a referee cannot give a card. It is apparent something happened, but we have no way of telling just what happened. The incident must be seen by the referee, his AR's, or the fourth official for their to be a card or other punishment. If there is video evidence, the team may take it to league/tournament officials later, but it is not adviseable that the referee look at the video during the game.

[A USSFReferee]

TPP to CR, GP called me a *** so I punched him.


I believe that in this event you would be capable of expelling and showing the red card to the player who comitted violent conduct (the punch) because he openly admitted to it.

The player who may have insulted the player cannot be disliplined in that no offical can confirm the truth in the players statement.

Statements from players can be used when an offical is trying to piece together what has occured for instance when he has only seen part of an event. This should informaton should only be considered as a reason to visit your AR. It is at the risk of the referee how much information he decideds to use in his decison and he should attempt to confirm the validity of this information with an official before acting. When making the decision make sure you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a foul/miscondut has occured and be sure to consult your other officials when making this decision. Never act on just player comments.

[MassachusettsRef]

Story that relates to this sort of thing...

I was CR in a game once where there was serious misconduct behind my back. One red card (for Team B) was obvious, as both my AR and I saw it (I turned to see the violent retaliation). But it was quite clear that there should be a second red card (for an initial shove or punch, we weren't sure what exactly). People from both teams were up in arms over what had happened and everything was at a boiling point. Problem was, neither my AR nor I had a clue who to send from Team A.

As we conferred, a player from Team A came up to accept the card (his exact quote was, if I remember correctly, "I know what I did and I'll take my red, but he better be going, too."). So, I showed him the red (while we shook hands and he patted me on the back), and then showed the other player his red and we got on with it. Perfect. Or so I thought...

I found out later that the player in question took the red card because he had been injured somewhat seriously (enough to no longer play) in the fracas and the real culprit from his team went unpunished. For that game, it worked out perfectly, because both teams played with 10 and no one complained because they felt justice was done. Had it been a TV match, on the other hand...

[Law5]

What do the laws of the game say? Law 12 used to say (but it was dropped in the rewrite a few years ago because "it was considered obvious") "when, in the opinion of the referee, a player...." There is nothing there about how that (reasonable) opinion is formed. If a player is going to admit that he committed a foul and/or misconduct, please don't hang yourself by thinking that you can't call it because you didn't see it happen.

[usatowin]

What do the laws of the game say? Law 12 used to say (but it was dropped in the rewrite a few years ago because "it was considered obvious") "when, in the opinion of the referee, a player...." There is nothing there about how that (reasonable) opinion is formed. If a player is going to admit that he committed a foul and/or misconduct, please don't hang yourself by thinking that you can't call it because you didn't see it happen.

OK, let's take the above example with a twist. There was obviously only one player involved, but you don't know who. The wrong player admits to punching so you send him off. They've got it on video and appeal. Or maybe not even video, but get the other team to say it was the wrong guy and the refs admit they didn't actually see it when questioned. Now what?

[Ref Flunkie]

OK, let's take the above example with a twist. There was obviously only one player involved, but you don't know who. The wrong player admits to punching so you send him off. They've got it on video and appeal. Or maybe not even video, but get the other team to say it was the wrong guy and the refs admit they didn't actually see it when questioned. Now what?

Now they didn't see the misconduct or they missed who did it? I think they are two different things. If you see someone from red punch someone from blue, but can't figure out exactly who it is (say there is a big group of players), I think you make your best attempt to identify who it was and red card someone on red. If you were wrong, you were wrong, but you did see the misconduct and you thought you saw #X do it. If, however, you did not see the misconduct, but just see someone on the ground with a bloody nose and no one saw it or is saying "I punched him", then there isn't much you can do. All of this is IMO.

[bluedevils]

For example:
Green Player(GP) is bleeding from the nose, near the touch line.
AR to Purple Player(PP) what happened?
PP to CR, GP called me a *** so I punched him.

Is the AR allowed to tell this to the CR?
Can the CR, within the LOTG, show PP a red card?

It would be a yellow for ***. To be red, it would need to be f****** a******.

:)

[david58]

OK, let's take the above example with a twist. There was obviously only one player involved, but you don't know who. The wrong player admits to punching so you send him off. They've got it on video and appeal. Or maybe not even video, but get the other team to say it was the wrong guy and the refs admit they didn't actually see it when questioned. Now what?

In a high school match, I heard one of the magic words. I spun around, and called the nearest two players to me - I said to them that I distinctly heard the phrase ***********! and that one of them had earned a card. After a pause with no answer, I said "One of you or both of you, who said that?" At that moment, a third player sheepishly admitted to the misdeed, and got his NFHS-required discipline. I wouldn't try this too often, but it worked in this case quite well (I had to do something - too many opponents heard what was said).

[usatowin]

In a high school match, I heard one of the magic words. I spun around, and called the nearest two players to me - I said to them that I distinctly heard the phrase ***********! and that one of them had earned a card. After a pause with no answer, I said "One of you or both of you, who said that?" At that moment, a third player sheepishly admitted to the misdeed, and got his NFHS-required discipline. I wouldn't try this too often, but it worked in this case quite well (I had to do something - too many opponents heard what was said).

HS is different in that if you don't know, you're required to ask and if they don't own up, the coach gets it. What happens if this is a LOTG game and it's proven you carded the person that didn't do it or even just proven that you were making a guess as to who to card?

[Statesman]

In amateur soccer you see a lot of teams who attempt to divert blame onto a "fall guy" when the referee tries to identify the criminal. Problem is, the other team will try to pin the offense on their opponent's best player if you ask them to confirm.

You can't really trust either team. The best you can do is keep your eyes and ears open and get feedback from your crew. When I'm unsuccessful in pinning the perp, I'll put all suspects on notice: "I'll be honest, I have no idea who did what, and I don't really care. Just be aware, I'll be paying very close attention to all of you - I don't want to see as much as a sneeze out of any one of you. Clear?"

I'll be sure to get my crew on the same page, and follow through with the promise. Any more antics out of any of the suspects and they go straight in the book.

Sometimes, the players get a freebie. Not much you can do but shrug your soldiers and stay alert.

[NHRef]

As for carding the wrong guy, that would probably be for any disciplinary committee to handle, you as the ref gave the card, facts of the game are set in stone at that point. The offended player is free to appeal the card and discipline if he chooses, if proof is then brought up that you carded the wrong guy, as long as in good faith you did what you thought was right at the time, I would say there's no issue here, mistakes can happen.

[usatowin]

As for carding the wrong guy, that would probably be for any disciplinary committee to handle, you as the ref gave the card, facts of the game are set in stone at that point. The offended player is free to appeal the card and discipline if he chooses, if proof is then brought up that you carded the wrong guy, as long as in good faith you did what you thought was right at the time, I would say there's no issue here, mistakes can happen.

When it comes up you asked the team because you had no clue or weren't sure if you were giving it to the right person, do you really think nothing's going to come back to you?

[superdave]

Perfect. Or so I thought...

I found out later that the player in question took the red card because he had been injured somewhat seriously (enough to no longer play) in the fracas and the real culprit from his team went unpunished.
I don't know if this makes me a bad person, but I grinned bigtime when I read this. :D

[Wahoo]

In this situation, a referee cannot give a card. It is apparent something happened, but we have no way of telling just what happened. The incident must be seen by the referee, his AR's, or the fourth official for their to be a card or other punishment. If there is video evidence, the team may take it to league/tournament officials later, but it is not adviseable that the referee look at the video during the game.

Are you sure you "can't" give a card in this situation?
To my understanding, the main goal is the intent of the law, not the letter of the law.

In this case, you have the player who punched the other, freely admitting it. Chances are he knew exactly what he was doing by admitting to the offense, knew the consequences, and decided it was worth the penalty.

Where is the harm in carding him?

From a game management point of view:
1. No one is going to argue against the card
2. If you leave the offender in the game, you better make sure you have one set of eyes on him at all times to catch the retribution that will occur.

I can see not giving a card if it was another player that accused him, but admitting guilt?

[Ref Flunkie]

Are you sure you "can't" give a card in this situation?
To my understanding, the main goal is the intent of the law, not the letter of the law.

In this case, you have the player who punched the other, freely admitting it. Chances are he knew exactly what he was doing by admitting to the offense, knew the consequences, and decided it was worth the penalty.

Where is the harm in carding him?

From a game management point of view:
1. No one is going to argue against the card
2. If you leave the offender in the game, you better make sure you have one set of eyes on him at all times to catch the retribution that will occur.

I can see not giving a card if it was another player that accused him, but admitting guilt?

He could be admitting guilt for reasons not quite that "honorable". I think a story was noted earlier where the player took the fall for another teammate due to an injury. There are any number of reasons why a player may "fess" up to it, and to be honest, I would be suspicious if someone did fess up to something that we were obviously trying to figure out due to someone not seeing the play directly.

[DadOf6]

In this situation, a referee cannot give a card. It is apparent something happened, but we have no way of telling just what happened. The incident must be seen by the referee, his AR's, or the fourth official for their to be a card or other punishment. If there is video evidence, the team may take it to league/tournament officials later, but it is not adviseable that the referee look at the video during the game.

The Utah referee association brought in a national instructor for intermediate and advanced referee training. Fri, from 4:30 - 9:00 and Sat from 9:00 - 4:30. My bum is sore from all of the sitting.

He told a good story: He was CR and something happened out of his view. He turned to the commotion and a player was down. He runs toward the injured player and observed that the AR had no idea what happened and the injured player's teammates were on the edge of doing something rash.

So as he is running he whistles loudly, waves his arms around, and yells, "Not in *my* game! You're out of here!"

The player left.

[Statesman]

So as he is running he whistles loudly, waves his arms around, and yells, "Not in *my* game! You're out of here!"

The player left.

Not to doubt your story, but rather to doubt his. I woudn't advocate any referee EVER doing that. First of all, why would the player leave? Unless you show him the red card there is no way he will exit the field. Second, when the player does not leave, what are you supposed to do? You still can't identify him so you've just made yourself out to be a HUGE fool. Good luck getting your credibility back.

Just goes to show how idiotic some of our so-called "national instructors" are.

[USSF REF]

Not to doubt your story, but rather to doubt his. I woudn't advocate any referee EVER doing that. First of all, why would the player leave? Unless you show him the red card there is no way he will exit the field. Second, when the player does not leave, what are you supposed to do? You still can't identify him so you've just made yourself out to be a HUGE fool. Good luck getting your credibility back.

Just goes to show how idiotic some of our so-called "national instructors" are.

While I won't say this will never work, and that some player might be stupid enough to walk off the pitch after hearing this... I tend to agree that this would fail 99% of the time. Once it fails you be up "sh*t creek which feeds into f-ed river and without a paddle."