The Zidane - Materazzi Incident - Part V - HEAVILY MODERATED (Again)

[Knave]

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[Unico10]

Good article.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28810-2266124,00.html


Yet Materazzi denies any reference to Zidane’s mother and there is no proof, beyond the contradictory evidence of lip-readers. (And if you think football is coming out of the World Cup final badly, then the speech-reading profession is in utter disarray. The various translations doing the rounds contest that Materazzi insulted Zidane’s mother, sister, wife and family, plus the late coach Jean Varraud, of AS Cannes, and the Muslim religion, covering issues as wide-ranging as terrorism, prostitution, incest and sexual preference. An ugly death to all and sundry may also have been part of the deal. If true, this really was a tour de force of verbal confrontation, the vehemence of which would turn Jerry Sadowitz green, considering Materazzi only had two sentences to go at it. Alternatively, these are high times in the world of lip-reading, lads, so good luck and don’t spend it all at once.) There could be a simpler explanation, involving the decoding, not of mouth movements, but the game. Zidane was not at his best in the Olympic Stadium. He scored from the penalty spot — just — but France did not deserve the lead and soon Materazzi took it away. Pirlo was the game’s best creative player by some distance, Fabio Cannavaro its best defender and the close attention of Italy’s excellent back four and defensive midfield kept the shackles on Zidane in a way Brazil never could.

After a brief France flurry early in the second half, the final settled into a familiar pattern and France did not look as if they would score until Zidane’s header was denied by Gianluigi Buffon after 104 minutes. By the time Zidane and Materazzi came together five minutes later, perhaps Zidane feared that hope of a happy ending was fading. It might not have been what was said but the situation that provoked his anger, effective trash talk, like good comedy, being all in the timing.

The most profound head-butt previously delivered on British television came from a character called Yosser Hughes in Alan Bleasdale’s play The Black Stuff. Sacked for moonlighting, his tools fallen from the back of his lorry as the result of a high-speed chase, Hughes returns to find two chancers loading his equipment into their van. Mad with rage, he seeks any excuse to vent his fury. “Say something,” he orders them. Silence.

“Say something,” he repeats. One man begins a hesitant explanation. “That’ll do,” he says. Bang.

Perhaps Zidane was in a similar place on Sunday night and in the end his anger, his indulgence, were not about what was said but what he could not bear to hear said. The best player was Italian, the best team was Italy and the cup would be heading back to Rome. The perfect adieu to the greatest footballer Europe has produced was about to slip through his fingers. No wonder he felt like putting the nut on someone.

[Novinha]

First of all, I’m French so, my opinion is quite biased but it’s an advantage because I saw ALL the interview, in my native language so I think I understand it very well, and I see the way Zidane was talking (I think that is important too).

Zidane said it was unforgivable, he repeated that several times, and he didn’t tried to excuse his act. I have never seen someone say that his red cart wasn’t deserved and he didn’t say that neither. Yes he did something stupid, yes he deserves a punishment and he has it (I’ve read some of you who were saying that he was not punished, but I don’t understand? What could FIFA do? He had a red cart, he can’t be suspended because he retired, I thought that the normal treatment no? plus he may not have his golden ball, so what could FIFA do?).
So, about this error, nobody say that it’s great to headbutt the others players, and Zidane neither. But he said that the provoker has to be punished TOO, which means that Zidane has to be punished because he don’t have to do things like this, but that Materazzi should be also punish. Indeed, we can’t denied that Materazzi provokes Zidane, and the way he did was not innocent: it was not during the game (I mean, the ball was far, it was not during an action of the game, and like says an other player it’s the worst moment because when a player plays he let the provocation goes easily), and Zidane was going away, but Materazzi kept talking and don’t stop (Zidane said that he tried not to react, but Materazzi wasn’t stopping). So, in my opinion, they are both guilty, Materazzi because he provokes and certainly said things that have nothing to do on a field, and Zidane because, whatever Materazzi could have said, he should have ignored him and certainly not respond by a headbutt. He is a pro and it’s not something to do during a game, he don’t have to respond by a violent act.
So, I’m sorry but I agree Zidane, both had to be punished.

The thing is that people seems to find normal that everybody insults everybody during a football game (and this is not only about all this materazzi-zidane story), but this is the problem: some players play too much with that (the provocation, the insults). I don’t like this football, there aren’t the values football represents and sport in a global way: yes you can insult the others players no problem, this is a way to win, get them on their nerves, it works, that’s great!! I know that every player, and surely Zidane are trashtalking, but I think that there are 2 categories: the ones for whom trashtalking is, not a philosophy but almost, hm the way they played (always provokes the others, to harasses them) and the others. I love to believe that the first category is still a minority and I’d like that FIFA do something against them.

In France, many people, who know Zidane, have been interviewed, and in a word: on the field he want to win, he has a dark side and can lose his control (and he is known for this), that contrast with Zidane in the life, very calm and discrete (but I think none of us can talk about this, we don’t know) => he is just a man, with his qualities and his defaults, he is not perfect, he made errors, but he assumes them, and that’s also why we love him, he don’t search for excuses: there is no excuse and he knows that.
I’m sorry but Zidane is just a man, he lose his control, he had his reasons (and I can't undestand why people expected Zidane to say exactly what Materazzi had said to him, that was so obvious Zidane would not repeat) Some of us can understand, the others can’t, that’s normal, that’s life.
The fact is that Italy won, congratulations to his team, and even if I don’t like Materazzi a lot, I think it’s sad that everybody only talk about him and not about the others players: they deserve their World Cup, that’s all, end of the story.
I think this is a never ending debate…

And just a thing, people who talked about the riots made me laugh, they’ll have to explain me what that was doing in this thread J

And really sorry for my English, I try but I can’t express myself very well in English ;-)

[jerrito]

First of all, I’m French so, my opinion is quite biased but it’s an advantage because I saw ALL the interview, in my native language so I think I understand it very well, and I see the way Zidane was talking (I think that is important too).

Zidane said it was unforgivable, he repeated that several times, and he didn’t tried to excuse his act. I have never seen someone say that his red cart wasn’t deserved and he didn’t say that neither. Yes he did something stupid, yes he deserves a punishment and he has it (I’ve read some of you who were saying that he was not punished, but I don’t understand? What could FIFA do? He had a red cart, he can’t be suspended because he retired, I thought that the normal treatment no? plus he may not have his golden ball, so what could FIFA do?).
So, about this error, nobody say that it’s great to headbutt the others players, and Zidane neither. But he said that the provoker has to be punished TOO, which means that Zidane has to be punished because he don’t have to do things like this, but that Materazzi should be also punish. Indeed, we can’t denied that Materazzi provokes Zidane, and the way he did was not innocent: it was not during the game (I mean, the ball was far, it was not during an action of the game, and like says an other player it’s the worst moment because when a player plays he let the provocation goes easily), and Zidane was going away, but Materazzi kept talking and don’t stop (Zidane said that he tried not to react, but Materazzi wasn’t stopping). So, in my opinion, they are both guilty, Materazzi because he provokes and certainly said things that have nothing to do on a field, and Zidane because, whatever Materazzi could have said, he should have ignored him and certainly not respond by a headbutt. He is a pro and it’s not something to do during a game, he don’t have to respond by a violent act.
So, I’m sorry but I agree Zidane, both had to be punished.

The thing is that people seems to find normal that everybody insults everybody during a football game (and this is not only about all this materazzi-zidane story), but this is the problem: some players play too much with that (the provocation, the insults). I don’t like this football, there aren’t the values football represents and sport in a global way: yes you can insult the others players no problem, this is a way to win, get them on their nerves, it works, that’s great!! I know that every player, and surely Zidane are trashtalking, but I think that there are 2 categories: the ones for whom trashtalking is, not a philosophy but almost, hm the way they played (always provokes the others, to harasses them) and the others. I love to believe that the first category is still a minority and I’d like that FIFA do something against them.

In France, many people, who know Zidane, have been interviewed, and in a word: on the field he want to win, he has a dark side and can lose his control (and he is known for this), that contrast with Zidane in the life, very calm and discrete (but I think none of us can talk about this, we don’t know) => he is just a man, with his qualities and his defaults, he is not perfect, he made errors, but he assumes them, and that’s also why we love him, he don’t search for excuses: there is no excuse and he knows that.
I’m sorry but Zidane is just a man, he lose his control, he had his reasons (and I can't undestand why people expected Zidane to say exactly what Materazzi had said to him, that was so obvious Zidane would not repeat) Some of us can understand, the others can’t, that’s normal, that’s life.
The fact is that Italy won, congratulations to his team, and even if I don’t like Materazzi a lot, I think it’s sad that everybody only talk about him and not about the others players: they deserve their World Cup, that’s all, end of the story.
I think this is a never ending debate…

And just a thing, people who talked about the riots made me laugh, they’ll have to explain me what that was doing in this thread J

And really sorry for my English, I try but I can’t express myself very well in English ;-)



I think you expressed yourself very well. I also believe that provided Zidane understands that what he did was wrong, of course he should be forgiven. None of us is perfect. It was disappointing for me to watch as well, as I've always loved watching him play. Great post, Novinha!

[JakeV]

First of all, I’m French so, my opinion is quite biased but it’s an advantage because I saw ALL the interview, in my native language so I think I understand it very well, and I see the way Zidane was talking (I think that is important too).

Zidane said it was unforgivable, he repeated that several times, and he didn’t tried to excuse his act. I have never seen someone say that his red cart wasn’t deserved and he didn’t say that neither.


Very good post overall. But one thing that perhaps should be mentioned is that while Zidane said what he did was unforgivable, he also said he didn't regret doing it.

To me, that seems like a contradiction, and it makes me think that Zidane doesn't really believe that what he did was wrong. Which is fine-- he's entitled to his opinion, and maybe he's right. But let's not pretend that he's totally contrite, because he isn't.

[jerrito]

Very good post overall. But one thing that perhaps should be mentioned is that while Zidane said what he did was unforgivable, he also said he didn't regret doing it.

To me, that seems like a contradiction, and it makes me think that Zidane doesn't really believe that what he did was wrong. Which is fine-- he's entitled to his opinion, and maybe he's right. But let's not pretend that he's totally contrite, because he isn't.


He also tried to explain to the referee why he did it, which tells me he truly believes he was wronged. Maybe he just doesn't get why it was wrong. That's why I said if he truly understands that what he did was wrong, he should be forgiven. Hopefully we'll see that at some point, but I'm not so confident about that...


And Novinha, I too am sad that this has taken the attention from an Italian side which did something remarkable. I'd rather be talking about how Grosso still had the energy to run up the wing in the 100th minute. Sad.

[Nanbawan]

To me, that seems like a contradiction, and it makes me think that Zidane doesn't really believe that what he did was wrong. Which is fine-- he's entitled to his opinion, and maybe he's right. But let's not pretend that he's totally contrite, because he isn't.

the contradiction lies in the fact that he regrets that kids around the world have seen the ugly gesture, but he doesn't regret what he's done to Materazzi. He apologised to the audience, not the player.

[jerrito]

the contradiction lies in the fact that he regrets that kids around the world have seen the ugly gesture, but he doesn't regret what he's done to Materazzi. He apologised to the audience, not the player.


And that's the problem I have with it. I want to hear him apologize for doing it, not for children or anyone else seeing it.

[Nanbawan]

And that's the problem I have with it.

Frankly, he should not apologise to Materazzi but he should recognise that basically, his gesture was wrong. That may happen.

[Pedro_Fut]

First of all, I’m French so, my opinion is quite biased but it’s an advantage because I saw ALL the interview, in my native language so I think I understand it very well, and I see the way Zidane was talking (I think that is important too).

Zidane said it was unforgivable, he repeated that several times, and he didn’t tried to excuse his act. I have never seen someone say that his red cart wasn’t deserved and he didn’t say that neither. Yes he did something stupid, yes he deserves a punishment and he has it (I’ve read some of you who were saying that he was not punished, but I don’t understand? What could FIFA do? He had a red cart, he can’t be suspended because he retired, I thought that the normal treatment no? plus he may not have his golden ball, so what could FIFA do?).
So, about this error, nobody say that it’s great to headbutt the others players, and Zidane neither. But he said that the provoker has to be punished TOO, which means that Zidane has to be punished because he don’t have to do things like this, but that Materazzi should be also punish. Indeed, we can’t denied that Materazzi provokes Zidane, and the way he did was not innocent: it was not during the game (I mean, the ball was far, it was not during an action of the game, and like says an other player it’s the worst moment because when a player plays he let the provocation goes easily), and Zidane was going away, but Materazzi kept talking and don’t stop (Zidane said that he tried not to react, but Materazzi wasn’t stopping). So, in my opinion, they are both guilty, Materazzi because he provokes and certainly said things that have nothing to do on a field, and Zidane because, whatever Materazzi could have said, he should have ignored him and certainly not respond by a headbutt. He is a pro and it’s not something to do during a game, he don’t have to respond by a violent act.
So, I’m sorry but I agree Zidane, both had to be punished.

The thing is that people seems to find normal that everybody insults everybody during a football game (and this is not only about all this materazzi-zidane story), but this is the problem: some players play too much with that (the provocation, the insults). I don’t like this football, there aren’t the values football represents and sport in a global way: yes you can insult the others players no problem, this is a way to win, get them on their nerves, it works, that’s great!! I know that every player, and surely Zidane are trashtalking, but I think that there are 2 categories: the ones for whom trashtalking is, not a philosophy but almost, hm the way they played (always provokes the others, to harasses them) and the others. I love to believe that the first category is still a minority and I’d like that FIFA do something against them.

In France, many people, who know Zidane, have been interviewed, and in a word: on the field he want to win, he has a dark side and can lose his control (and he is known for this), that contrast with Zidane in the life, very calm and discrete (but I think none of us can talk about this, we don’t know) => he is just a man, with his qualities and his defaults, he is not perfect, he made errors, but he assumes them, and that’s also why we love him, he don’t search for excuses: there is no excuse and he knows that.
I’m sorry but Zidane is just a man, he lose his control, he had his reasons (and I can't undestand why people expected Zidane to say exactly what Materazzi had said to him, that was so obvious Zidane would not repeat) Some of us can understand, the others can’t, that’s normal, that’s life.
The fact is that Italy won, congratulations to his team, and even if I don’t like Materazzi a lot, I think it’s sad that everybody only talk about him and not about the others players: they deserve their World Cup, that’s all, end of the story.
I think this is a never ending debate…

And just a thing, people who talked about the riots made me laugh, they’ll have to explain me what that was doing in this thread J

And really sorry for my English, I try but I can’t express myself very well in English ;-)
Very good post Novinha! I may add that I agree in pretty much all that you have said. I also like to think that most player don´t make trash talk their philosophy. However I do think that there is a big stick to the Italians as if they do that to win games. Reading some (but not all) italians poster here, maybe this is a right assumption. However I still give Materazzi the benefit of the doubt. I don´t think during the game he was harassing Zidane as they were not crossing each other. Maybe he is just telling the true when he said that he lost controll by Zidane sarcastic comment about the t-shirt. Maybe not.

This italian team looks pretty nice to me. I am not italian but I am biased against France (I am brasilian), to me France look very arrogant and cockery. They complaint about diving and dive, they complaint about elbowing and they elbow the oponent. I wish the French team had shown your class after the game. That was not what they show. Your coach act as a completely fool. I am just stating this for us to consider that we get emotional during games and we do make mistakes (even when we are whaching it, imagine while playing!).

By the way, I realy like Zidane. As a player and as a man. He does has a short temper but that is his way.

[Pedro_Fut]

And that's the problem I have with it. I want to hear him apologize for doing it, not for children or anyone else seeing it.
By the way, I think Materazi should also apologize for what he had said. And then maybe both of them could eat some pizza...

[Peretz48]

Personally, I don't like manipulative behavior, and WHATEVER Materazzi said was intended to provoke Zidane. Of course, he couldn't have predicted that Zidane would head-butt him, but he wanted to do something to get in his head. Having said that, Zidane is really lame. C'mon, you mean to tell me that with all the trash talking and insults that happen on the field that other players couldn't feel justified in physically retaliating as Zidane did? The point is that, by and large, THEY DON"T RETALIATE! Professional players are trained and are supposed to know how to deal with trash-talking, and more than anything they understand that they can't imperil their teammates by getting red-carded. Think of all the black players that have been likened to monkeys or called the "N" word. Where I come from, that's fighting words. Nevertheless, they keep playing. If Zidane really wanted to be true to himself, his family and his team he could have just told Materazzi in no uncertain terms that he crossed the line and would "discuss" the matter later or simply have gotten in the last word and moved on.

[flowergirl]

And that's the problem I have with it. I want to hear him apologize for doing it, not for children or anyone else seeing it.

actually i think it makes perfect sense. he's apologizing to every one who he let down, but not the player who provoked him.

if someone called me a c*** on tv and i slapped them, i might apologize to the tv audience, but i certainly wouldn't apologize to the person who provoked the slap.

[flowergirl]

Personally, I don't like manipulative behavior, and WHATEVER Materazzi said was intended to provoke Zidane. Of course, he couldn't have predicted that Zidane would head-butt him, but he wanted to do something to get in his head. Having said that, Zidane is really lame. C'mon, you mean to tell me that with all the trash talking and insults that happen on the field that other players couldn't feel justified in physically retaliating as Zidane did? The point is that, by and large, THEY DON"T RETALIATE! Professional players are trained and are supposed to know how to deal with trash-talking, and more than anything they understand that they can't imperil their teammates by getting red-carded. Think of all the black players that have been likened to monkeys or called the "N" word. Where I come from, that's fighting words. Nevertheless, they keep playing. If Zidane really wanted to be true to himself, his family and his team he could have just told Materazzi in no uncertain terms that he crossed the line and would "discuss" the matter later or simply have gotten in the last word and moved on.

did you ever consider that perhaps he was in a little more of a pressure cooker situation than most? ie, captain, carrying your team in the wc final?
i'm just saying, probably not peaches and cream and love songs...ya know?

[bigdumbgod]

By the way, I think Materazi should also apologize for what he had said. And then maybe both of them could eat some pizza...

...before their charity Ultimate Fighting match.

[SilverS]

I would love to see them settle it once and for all on July 20th.
MM should be a man and take owership of what he said. Both should be punished, although it doesn't mean much when both will not be playing later on anyway so the punishment needs to be of substance and something that is meaningful to deter further escalation in future soccer matches of all kind.

I would like to see MM lose his medal and that ZZ lose his golden ball and both be fined $100K Euros each to be donated to soccer developement in the 3rd world.

I would love to see those two settle it fist to fist on the street though, then we would see who has the gonads to say what.

[hankleberry]

Good article.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28810-2266124,00.html


Yet Materazzi denies any reference to Zidane’s mother and there is no proof, beyond the contradictory evidence of lip-readers. (And if you think football is coming out of the World Cup final badly, then the speech-reading profession is in utter disarray. The various translations doing the rounds contest that Materazzi insulted Zidane’s mother, sister, wife and family, plus the late coach Jean Varraud, of AS Cannes, and the Muslim religion, covering issues as wide-ranging as terrorism, prostitution, incest and sexual preference. An ugly death to all and sundry may also have been part of the deal. If true, this really was a tour de force of verbal confrontation, the vehemence of which would turn Jerry Sadowitz green, considering Materazzi only had two sentences to go at it. Alternatively, these are high times in the world of lip-reading, lads, so good luck and don’t spend it all at once.) There could be a simpler explanation, involving the decoding, not of mouth movements, but the game. Zidane was not at his best in the Olympic Stadium. He scored from the penalty spot — just — but France did not deserve the lead and soon Materazzi took it away. Pirlo was the game’s best creative player by some distance, Fabio Cannavaro its best defender and the close attention of Italy’s excellent back four and defensive midfield kept the shackles on Zidane in a way Brazil never could.

After a brief France flurry early in the second half, the final settled into a familiar pattern and France did not look as if they would score until Zidane’s header was denied by Gianluigi Buffon after 104 minutes. By the time Zidane and Materazzi came together five minutes later, perhaps Zidane feared that hope of a happy ending was fading. It might not have been what was said but the situation that provoked his anger, effective trash talk, like good comedy, being all in the timing.

The most profound head-butt previously delivered on British television came from a character called Yosser Hughes in Alan Bleasdale’s play The Black Stuff. Sacked for moonlighting, his tools fallen from the back of his lorry as the result of a high-speed chase, Hughes returns to find two chancers loading his equipment into their van. Mad with rage, he seeks any excuse to vent his fury. “Say something,” he orders them. Silence.

“Say something,” he repeats. One man begins a hesitant explanation. “That’ll do,” he says. Bang.

Perhaps Zidane was in a similar place on Sunday night and in the end his anger, his indulgence, were not about what was said but what he could not bear to hear said. The best player was Italian, the best team was Italy and the cup would be heading back to Rome. The perfect adieu to the greatest footballer Europe has produced was about to slip through his fingers. No wonder he felt like putting the nut on someone.


That's a very entertaining article. Thanks for posting it!

[ForeverRed]

This is exactly what celebrity boxing was created for!

[Persian_Prince]

Originally Posted by Unico10
Good article.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28810-2266124,00.html

Yes, that was an interesting article, however the conclusion was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off!

The conclusion: "Perhaps Zidane was in a similar place on Sunday night and in the end his anger, his indulgence, were not about what was said but what he could not bear to hear said. The best player was Italian, the best team was Italy and the cup would be heading back to Rome. The perfect adieu to the greatest footballer Europe has produced was about to slip through his fingers. No wonder he felt like putting the nut on someone."

"The best player was Italian"!!! Really? Zidane is not Italian, he's French.

"The best team was Italy"!!! France was the best team for the last 75 minutes of the game. First half it was Italy, second half and OT it was mostly France.

"the cup would be heading back to Rome"!!! How did Zidane know that with the score tied and France having better scoring chances than Italy???

Perhaps it was Materazzi who felt that the cup will be going to Paris (France was attacking left and right, and Italian defenders on their heels), and so he decided to get on Zidane's nerves by insulting him and his family.

Nice little write up, but IMO the conclusion is self serving.

[hankleberry]

"The best player was Italian"!!! Really? Zidane is not Italian, he's French.

"The best team was Italy"!!! France was the best team for the last 75 minutes of the game. First half it was Italy, second half and OT it was mostly France.

Nice little write up, but IMO the conclusion is self serving.


Self serving? The writer is British!

The best player was Cannavaro.

Throughout the tournament, the best team was Italy. In the final, Italy was the best team for most of the first half, France was the best team for most of the second half, and neither team did much in the overtime.