The Zidane - Materazzi Incident - Part IV

[TimB4Last]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071300546.html

ZURICH, Switzerland -- FIFA said Thursday it opened disciplinary proceedings against Marco Materazzi for his conduct in France's World Cup final defeat.

World soccer's governing body said it opened the investigation after statements from Zinedine Zidane, who was sent off Sunday for head-butting Italy defender Materazzi in the chest.

Zidane claimed he was provoked by insults from Materazzi.

FIFA said in a statement it had also summoned both players to attend a hearing of its disciplinary committee July 20.

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I wonder how much will be made public.

Zidane's already been punished. His team lost the Final; he got the red card; and his violent conduct has been widely and properly condemned. Now that he's retired, there's not much more FIFA can do, unless they want to take away his 'Golden Ball.' *

Given the facts as we 'know' them, particularly the statements by both players, I expect Materazzi to be disciplined. It may be as simple as prohibiting him from playing against France, a punishment that might help to diffuse tensions.

I can't imagine any team sanctions, even if Materazzi's comments had racist overtones. I'm sure FIFA wants all the furor surrounding this incident to die down as quickly as possible.

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* I'm not sure that I would want to be the one to tell Zidane to give back the ball, if you know what I mean.

[sinner78]

ooooh I didnt realise you could get banned for making comments to another player. I suppose FIFA will employ lip-readers to work out what he said.
Trashtalk among players out in the field is common in all sports .Zidane lost his head when he heard some bog standard smacktalk .its his own fault for losing his temper.
I still aint worked out why he headbutted him in the chest of all places.Hmmmm strange.

[DaveyGorgeous]

Zidane's already been punished. His team lost the Final; he got the red card; and his violent conduct has been widely and properly condemned. Now that he's retired, there's not much more FIFA can do, unless they want to take away his 'Golden Ball.'

Sadly, the great Zidane has been punished but I'm afraid he did the punishment unto himself. He could have reacted differently and lost the cup for his team, his country and himself. If no racial underpinnings are found in Materazzi's language, he could also face the stripping of his Golden Ball award. FIFA's Best Young Player award was not given to Ronaldo because of not FAIR play. Headbutting, I believe, is the antithesis of fair play. Surely if they didnt give Ronaldo the award for trying to get Rooney red-carded, I can't see them giving Zidane the award after the headbutt. But we'll see, who knows...

Given the facts as we 'know' them, particularly the statements by both players, I expect Materazzi to be disciplined. It may be as simple as prohibiting him from playing against France, a punishment that might help to diffuse tensions.

Again, if no racial remarks are found I can't see how FIFA can discipline him. Is there a precise FIFA regulation that prohibits trash-talking (if so, could someone provide a link)? If there is none implemented, I'm sure they will issue a statement to Materazzi claiming his actions were not admirable what so ever but no discipline can be inflicted. Regardless if disciplined or not, I doubt he'll play the EURO 2008 qualifier vs. France to keep tensions low.

If there is some kind of regulation against trash-talking, I apologize in advance.

I can't imagine any team sanctions, even if Materazzi's comments had racist overtones. I'm sure FIFA wants all the furor surrounding this incident to die down as quickly as possible.

Team sanctions, to me, seem ridiculous even if racial overtones were found. How can someone strip a team who won the tournament (7 games) of their championship because of what 1 player said during the last 10 minutes of the final game? Doesn't seem warranted, a replaying of the final seems very improbable.

[JoseP]

Again, if no racial remarks are found I can't see how FIFA can discipline him. Is there a precise FIFA regulation that prohibits trash-talking (if so, could someone provide a link)? If there is none implemented, I'm sure they will issue a statement to Materazzi claiming his actions were not admirable what so ever but no discipline can be inflicted.

Sure. Look at http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/laws/LOTG2006_e.pdf and go to page 20 for Send off offences. There you will see
uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures.

[TimB4Last]

ooooh I didnt realise you could get banned for making comments to another player. I suppose FIFA will employ lip-readers to work out what he said.
Trashtalk among players out in the field is common in all sports .Zidane lost his head when he heard some bog standard smacktalk .its his own fault for losing his temper.
I still aint worked out why he headbutted him in the chest of all places.Hmmmm strange.

Well, I can see you and I see the issue differently. The headbutt was Zidane's own fault, I agree. I just don't agree that there are no limits on what opposing players say to each other. Sports require a level of sportsmanship - otherwise you risk devolving into the level of an anything-goes street fight.

But I was just speculating about Materazzi's possible punishment. We still don't know exactly what was said. Perhaps FIFA will take no action against Materazzi, or decide that a fine is more appropriate than a suspension.

I just think that suspending Materazzi for the next France-Italy match, especially one in France, might be prudent. Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if the Italian Federation agreed to keep him home 'voluntarily' to diffuse tensions.

[Fan123]

Will FIFA view Zidane's headbutt as "rightful" retaliation? It's been admitted that Materazzi said insults, but will that nullify Zidane's headbutt?

[17mika]

Will FIFA view Zidane's headbutt as "rightful" retaliation? It's been admitted that Materazzi said insults, but will that nullify Zidane's headbutt?

Of course not.
It will be just somthing that will lighten a bit the punishment.

[The Bergamister]

I must say that the french are strikingly more violent and racist then I thought. And sore losers to add....

Materazzi is not to blame, he only wanted to agitate Zidane by insulting his family, something that happens all the time on the pitch, Zidane has said certain things as well and admitted that... but I am sure that if an Italian player had done what Zidane did, nobody would have looked for the reason why. Did Poulsen say something to Totti to make him spit at Euro 2004? We do not know and nobody asked the question, but Italy condemned Totti for what he did and some people wanted him out of the Azzurri.
The victims here are Italians, we have been called Macaroni's, Mafiosi, etc... and haven't you read the German magazines before Italy played against Germany? Where was all the anti racism campaigners then?

[17mika]

I must say that the french are strikingly more violent and racist then I thought. And sore losers to add....

Materazzi is not to blame, he only wanted to agitate Zidane by insulting his family, something that happens all the time on the pitch, Zidane has said certain things as well and admitted that... but I am sure that if an Italian player had done what Zidane did, nobody would have looked for the reason why. Did Poulsen say something to Totti to make him spit at Euro 2004? We do not know and nobody asked the question, but Italy condemned Totti for what he did and some people wanted him out of the Azzurri.
The victims here are Italians, we have been called Macaroni's, Mafiosi, etc... and haven't you read the German magazines before Italy played against Germany? Where was all the anti racism campaigners then?

Permettimi.. stai pisciando un po' fuori dal vaso ;) .. german newspapers and the France popolation really have no link with Zidane's headbutt..

[DaveyGorgeous]

Sure. Look at http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/laws/LOTG2006_e.pdf and go to page 20 for Send off offences. There you will see
uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures.

I see what you have pointed out, thank you for the link!

It is under "Sending off offences" which means you can be red-carded if they referee hears the offence. Here, the match is over and the referee did not hear the offence. If it happens to be confirmed that the language used was "offensive or insulting or abusive" I can't see Materazzi getting more than a ban of a match or two. There has been worse done with lesser punishment.

[TimB4Last]

Sadly, the great Zidane has been punished but I'm afraid he did the punishment unto himself. He could have reacted differently and lost the cup for his team, his country and himself. If no racial underpinnings are found in Materazzi's language, he could also face the stripping of his Golden Ball award. FIFA's Best Young Player award was not given to Ronaldo because of not FAIR play. Headbutting, I believe, is the antithesis of fair play. Surely if they didnt give Ronaldo the award for trying to get Rooney red-carded, I can't see them giving Zidane the award after the headbutt. But we'll see, who knows...

Again, if no racial remarks are found I can't see how FIFA can discipline him. Is there a precise FIFA regulation that prohibits trash-talking (if so, could someone provide a link)? If there is none implemented, I'm sure they will issue a statement to Materazzi claiming his actions were not admirable what so ever but no discipline can be inflicted. Regardless if disciplined or not, I doubt he'll play the EURO 2008 qualifier vs. France to keep tensions low.

If there is some kind of regulation against trash-talking, I apologize in advance.

Team sanctions, to me, seem ridiculous even if racial overtones were found. How can someone strip a team who won the tournament (7 games) of their championship because of what 1 player said during the last 10 minutes of the final game? Doesn't seem warranted, a replaying of the final seems very improbable.

I know this all sounds very threatening, but try to relax. No one is going to exonerate Zidane and no one is going to take Italy's trophy away. So relax.

Where I disagree with many posters is in the assumption whatever Materazzi said doesn't really matter, that Zidane's violent reaction puts 100% of the blame on Zidane's shoulders. I don't see the situation as quite that simple, and apperently neither does FIFA.

Do you really want to defend the position that Materazzi can say whatever he wants, or even whatever he wants as long as there is no racism involved? I wouldn't want to argue that position. There have to be some limits.

FIFA has to investigate if only to determine that Materazzi did not cross the line, wherever that line happens to be.

[JoseP]

I see what you have pointed out, thank you for the link!

It is under "Sending off offences" which means you can be red-carded if they referee hears the offence. Here, the match is over and the referee did not hear the offence. If it happens to be confirmed that the language used was "offensive or insulting or abusive" I can't see Materazzi getting more than a ban of a match or two. There has been worse done with lesser punishment.

Exactly. I think they will determine it a red cardable offense and treat it as such. Which means he will probably get a one game suspension.

[DaveyGorgeous]

Do you really want to defend the position that Materazzi can say whatever he wants, or even whatever he wants as long as there is no racism involved? I wouldn't want to argue that position. There have to be some limits.

I am not arguing that any player can say whatever he or she wants. Racism or discrimination should have zero tolerance. Other insults I also do not promote but I have heard so many comments (especially ones toward my mother) and I'm sure some of our great international stars of this WC have as well, and one must learn to zone out the other player and continue playing. If FIFA wants to take steps towards stopping that kind of talk, I am for it though. I mean to me it is uncalled for.

But how will one enforce such action against offensive language? If someone says something is a player so to go over to the referee and say "he said my mommy was blah, blah, blah" ...kind of babyish if you think about it.

Don't know how it would get done, thats why it has been in the FIFA rule book but rarely (if ever) do you hear it being enforced. It's there just to be there, sadly as it seems.

[TimB4Last]

Exactly. I think they will determine it a red cardable offense and treat it as such. Which means he will probably get a one game suspension.

That sounds about right, and I've already suggested a particular game (v. France) that might be suitable (for several reasons).

I don't think FIFA's going to bring the hammer down on Materazzi, if only because they don't want other players imitating Zidane and dealing out their own form of violent retribution every time another player insults them.

FIFA should keep the harsh spotlight on Zidane's violent head-butt, where it belongs, while making it clear that they frown on abusive language in any form - not just racist language.

[17mika]

That sounds about right, and I've already suggested a particular game (v. France) that might be suitable (for several reasons).



I think France-Italy is going to be the second game of italy's qualifying path. So He'll be out only if he gets a 2 matches (or more) suspension.

Anyway.. as previously said, he we'll not probably be part of the game anyway, if Nesta and Cannavaro are ok

[TimB4Last]

I am not arguing that any player can say whatever he or she wants. Racism or discrimination should have zero tolerance. Other insults I also do not promote but I have heard so many comments (especially ones toward my mother) and I'm sure some of our great international stars of this WC have as well, and one must learn to zone out the other player and continue playing. If FIFA wants to take steps towards stopping that kind of talk, I am for it though. I mean to me it is uncalled for.

But how will one enforce such action against offensive language? If someone says something is a player so to go over to the referee and say "he said my mommy was blah, blah, blah" ...kind of babyish if you think about it.

Don't know how it would get done, thats why it has been in the FIFA rule book but rarely (if ever) do you hear it being enforced. It's there just to be there, sadly as it seems.

Enforcement will obviously be difficult. I wouldn't say talking to the referee is 'babyish,' but I would guess that most players will continue to take care of business themselves, in at least two ways:

1) By trying to ignore the other player and refusing to react and be thrown off their game. [This is why trading insults is ineffective - it gives the offending player what he wants - a reaction.]

2) Some form of retribution (when the referee isn't looking).

Looking at the big picture, I think the answer might be a disciplinary log. We know that leagues already sanction violent fouls after the game, even fouls that the referee has missed entirely. And the anti-racism campaign is in full swing - presumably incidents of racism are being logged in some official way.

It shouldn't be that difficult to identify and sanction serial offenders - not based on one insult but on a pattern of insults over time - reported by the players to their coach and then officially. Eventually, after multiple reports, the league would tell a player to clean up his act or be disciplined. A couple of harsh examples - why [I]me, everybody does it? - might at least tone down the (worst of the) name-calling.

Sounds silly, I know, but only because players and the larger culture accept that trash-talking is an integral part of the game. It doesn't have to be - certainly not to the extent it is today.

[br2006]

Another good article about "the butt"

http://www.bleacherreport.com/sys/content/view/253/63/

[TimB4Last]

I think France-Italy is going to be the second game of italy's qualifying path. So He'll be out only if he gets a 2 matches (or more) suspension.

Anyway.. as previously said, he we'll not probably be part of the game anyway, if Nesta and Cannavaro are ok

Well, it will be interesting to see what FIFA does. I assume that some sort of closed-door deal can be worked out with the Federations involved.* Materazzi gets a one-game suspension (or even a fine with no suspension) but Italy agrees not to select him for the match v. France.

I'll mention that in US sports it is not unheard of to be suspended vs. a particular opponent, i.e. the suspension takes place the next time the two teams involved play each other.

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* The French have a stake in all this. Presumably this whole incident will be put in proper perspective in a couple of months, but no one wants to see tensions flare up. The riots in France were just last year, after all. It wouldn't be too surprising if the two federations themselves were already working out a deal they can pitch to FIFA at the Zidane-Materazzi hearing next week.

[jerrito]

That sounds about right, and I've already suggested a particular game (v. France) that might be suitable (for several reasons).

I don't think FIFA's going to bring the hammer down on Materazzi, if only because they don't want other players imitating Zidane and dealing out their own form of violent retribution every time another player insults them.

FIFA should keep the harsh spotlight on Zidane's violent head-butt, where it belongs, while making it clear that they frown on abusive language in any form - not just racist language.


FIFA should keep the harsh spotlight on Zidane's violent head-butt, where it belongs, while making it clear that they frown on abusive language in any form - not just racist language.


I couldn't agree more! Well said!

[JeffS]

Do you really want to defend the position that Materazzi can say whatever he wants, or even whatever he wants as long as there is no racism involved? I wouldn't want to argue that position. There have to be some limits.



The question is, how do you regulate trash talking? What is considered "too far"? What is "crossing the line"? How do you pick and choose who to punish? Is it when the recipient of the trash talking reacts violently, like Zidane did, then you go after the trash talker?

You see, it's a huge can of worms, and realistically you really can't police trash talking. It is so prevailant in professional sports, that it's not worth the trouble.

Racial remarks might be the ultimate no-no. But again, how do you police it?

One more thing. Zidane saying the "the true guilty culprit" is Materazzi is absolutely ridiculous. With this statement, he's saying 3 things:
1) He does not accept responsibility for his own actions, and
2) He thinks insults justifies violence, and
3) He thinks insults are worse than violence.

Frankly, unless he said something racial and it can be proven, whatever Materazzi said should be completely, utterly irrelevant, period.

Insults do not justify violence!