View Full Version : The Zidane - Materazzi Incident - Part II - STRICTLY MODERATED
Knave
11 Jul 2006, 05:53 PM
I've had it with the rivalry level discussion found on all the previous Zidane - Materazzi incident threads. So I merged them all together and closed them.
Here's the deal on this thread:
Any rivalry level posting will result in your banning from this board. Period. This is your only warning right here.
This is the only thread in which this incident will be discussed.
If you can't engage this topic in a civilized and diplomatic manner then leave this board now.
Knave
11 Jul 2006, 06:11 PM
One more rule: no pictures. Use words to make your point.
rafaelj
11 Jul 2006, 06:31 PM
Maybe we should all wait until Zidane speaks about the incident ... and not consult lip-readers and our own prejudice to judge what happened.
In so many years of watching soccer this has certainly been one of the strangest moments I've witnessed.
Somehow most non-Italians feel that Italy hasn't "deserved" the WC title ... their rather unattractive matches, the dive that gave them a penalty against Australia etc ... so I think all of this might cloud our judgement and we want to listen to our gut-feeling that Zidane was somehow justified and that Mazeratti must have said something horrible ...
I'm actually most concerned with the timing of the red card. I just don't believe FIFA's official version that the 4th official saw it with his own eyes and not on the video screen. I do believe they're making up a story to avoid a situation where the whole final would have to be repeated because of this referee's error (using the video screen for the red card is against the rules) ... isn't that the real story here?
GrandeCannavaro
11 Jul 2006, 06:31 PM
Let the facts come out first before passing judgement on Materazzi. Lip readers, please, supposedly he's said 5 different things according to lip readers. Wow, lawyers can argue the validity of lie detector, so now I'm supposed to put faith in lip reader. Come on.
Zidane was wrong for what he did. PERIOD. That's not the place to handle it even IF IF IF something derogatory, racial, whatever was said.
IF IF IF Materazzi said something rascist, then he should be punished too. I have no problem with that. Ban him forever.
But, if it was something as common as your sister is a this or a Yo Momma joke, please. Trash talking is part of the game. Do you think Zidane was whispering sweet nothings to Buffon after that huge save?
It's funny how Materazzi because of his reputation is presumed guilty. Yet Zidane with his reputation of on the pitch violence is assumed a saint.
I can't wait to see how FIFA spins this because Zidane is their MVP, so I'm sure they have plenty of wheels going right now to cover their butts.
I'm a huge Juventus fan and loved Zidane for getting us the Intercontinental Cup. I consider him top 3 players of all time, even still. BUT he is wrong for what he did, as a professional, as a teammate, and as a representative of his country.
JeffS
11 Jul 2006, 06:49 PM
But, if it was something as common as your sister is a this or a Yo Momma joke, please. Trash talking is part of the game. Do you think Zidane was whispering sweet nothings to Buffon after that huge save?
It's funny how Materazzi because of his reputation is presumed guilty. Yet Zidane with his reputation of on the pitch violence is assumed a saint.
Absolutely. Trash talking is part of the game, period. And if Materazzi did say something racist, and it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then let him suffer the cosequences.
As for so many people demonizing Materazzi:
Prior to the tournament, I knew next to zero about Materazzi. However, watching him during the tournament I was fairly impressed. I thought he played physical, but not dirty, and I thought he showed excellent marking abilities, and played pretty smart in that he knew to lay of the physical stuff in the penalty box. This is the same with the rest of the Italian players.
Also, in the Germany/Italy semi, I was pulling for Germany, big time. I've been a fan of Die Nationalmannschaft since the early eighties. However, I thought the better team won. The goal by Grosso was one for the ages, I thought. And guess what? I thougth Materazzi showed big time class after the game. He went and consoled every German player and shook their hands and congratulated them for a great match. There are pictures of it, including Materazzi shaking hands with Klinsmann.
Finally, I thought Materazzi's goal was magnificent. The cross from Pirlo was perfect, and Materazzi timed his jump perfectly, and showed great springs, and placed his header perfectly.
Thus, it seems to me all the demonization of Materazzi, just because he provoked Zidane with some trash talk, seems rather ridiculous to me.
And IF, I mean IF IF IF IF, it can be proven that Materazzi did say something racist, let him be punished.
Until then, people need to lay off. Zidane is 100% responsible for his own actions, no matter what trash talking he received. I'm 100% certain that Zidane dished it out himself. As GrandeCannavarro said, do you think Zidane was whispering sweet nothings to Buffon when Buffon saved Zidanes awesome header?
QuakeAttack
11 Jul 2006, 06:57 PM
Materazzi Admist to Insulting Zidane
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=373706&cc=5901
Based upon the video, his explaination seems plausable. He is shown tugging at the shirt, Zidane turns and responds, Materazzi say something, Zidane does his head butt.
He denies calling him terrorist or insulting his sister or mother. Sure, he could be lieing, but until Zidane speaks, we have only his word. In either case, we don't have any reliable second hand observers to confirm the discussion.
cured
11 Jul 2006, 07:10 PM
The dust will have to settle a bit more before I jump off the fence on this one. Materazzi also claimed, besides not calling Zidane a "terrorist," that he doesn't even know what an "islamic terrorist" is. Kind of an eyebrow-raiser. The guy appears to have the reputation of a first rate jerk but with 12+ minutes to go in stoppage time of a World Cup final, Zidane shouldn't have done what he did to him. He could have waited in the tunnel for Materazzi if it was that personal.
Still waiting on Zidane to speak up so we can stop speculating...
QuakeAttack
11 Jul 2006, 07:20 PM
The dust will have to settle a bit more before I jump off the fence on this one. Materazzi also claimed, besides not calling Zidane a "terrorist," that he doesn't even know what an "islamic terrorist" is. Kind of an eyebrow-raiser. The guy appears to have the reputation of a first rate jerk but with 12+ minutes to go in stoppage time of a World Cup final, Zidane shouldn't have done what he did to him. He could have waited in the tunnel for Materazzi if it was that personal.
Still waiting on Zidane to speak up so we can stop speculating...
From some other posts in other threads, there may be something lost in the translation in his explaination of "islamic terrorist" or just not completly taken in the appropriate context.
cured
11 Jul 2006, 07:36 PM
I read this off the bbc's site...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5169342.stm
"I didn't call Zidane a terrorist and certainly didn't mention his mother."
But Materazzi added: "I am ignorant, I don't even know what an Islamic terrorist is; my only terrorist is her," he said pointing to his 10-month-old daughter.
Maybe there is something lost in the translation but I'm also not sure how much benefit of the doubt Materazzi deserves. For Zidane to go mental and send a header into Materazzi's chest, Materazzi must've said SOMETHING inflammatory.
jerrito
11 Jul 2006, 07:42 PM
I read this off the bbc's site...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5169342.stm
Maybe there is something lost in the translation but I'm also not sure how much benefit of the doubt Materazzi deserves. For Zidane to go mental and send a header into Materazzi's chest, Materazzi must've said SOMETHING inflammatory.
He was also the man who sought out each German player after beating them to congratulate and console them. Including Klinsman. So until you have a true idea of what happened, please give him the benefit of the doubt as you give even the worst "defendants" in this country. But then, Zidane commited the "crime" didn't he?
FYI I'm Italian, and the "I don't even know what the word means" saying is a way of saying "No way I would have said that." It doesn't literally mean that he doesn't know what a terrorist is.
Materazzi has done some stupid things in his career, but so has Zidane (14 red cards, anyone?) So why give Zidane the benefit of the doubt? Because he has more skill with the ball? Sorry, that's just sad.
cured
11 Jul 2006, 07:48 PM
I ain't giving Zidane the benefit of the doubt, either. In my view there *may* have been a regrettable and demeaning personal attack on the part of Materazzi, and on the other there was a really, really dumb reaction to that.
the strange thing, for now, is Materazzi didn't even admit to what he said, he only denies the specualtion of what was said. Zidane hasn't said anything so the two people who know the most haven't been completely forthright.
...I'm also not sure how much benefit of the doubt Materazzi deserves. For Zidane to go mental and send a header into Materazzi's chest, Materazzi must've said SOMETHING inflammatory.
I've seen other people making this argument to excuse Zidane, and it's ridiculous. It's quite possible that Materazzi said something offensive or bigoted, but we can't make any assumptions about what he said based on the reaction - especially given Zidane's history of violence.
From the other thread, here's a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-_SR62uz0) of Zidane headbutting two opponents (one in the stomach, then one in the face). You think we can assume that both Hamburg players simultaneously made racist comments?
17mika
11 Jul 2006, 07:53 PM
Maybe there is something lost in the translation
Yes it is :) .. Materazzi said (I'm trying to give the right sense to the sentence):
"I dont even know how a terrorist looks like", and than looks at his daughter.
A sentence like this in italian it's just another way of saying "I would never call anyone terrorist, because it's the last thing that that would pass though my mind"
jerrito
11 Jul 2006, 07:54 PM
I ain't giving Zidane the benefit of the doubt, either. In my view there *may* have been a regrettable and demeaning personal attack on the part of Materazzi, and on the other there was a really, really dumb reaction to that.
the strange thing, for now, is Materazzi didn't even admit to what he said, he only denies the specualtion of what was said. Zidane hasn't said anything so the two people who know the most haven't been completely forthright.
No offense, but you said "For Zidane to go mental and send a header into Materazzi's chest, Materazzi must've said SOMETHING inflammatory." Must've. As in MUST HAVE. If that's not "the benefit of the doubt", I don't know what is.
By the way everyone, just for the record, If it's discovered that Materazzi said something racist, I will be the first to say "SUSPEND HIM". This would send a message that racism won't be tolerated off or ON the pitch. But we just don't know what happened yet. So your posts just look biased and inflamatory until then.
In any event, Zidane's reaction to WHATEVER was said was exagerated and disproportionate to whatever Materazzi may have said. And have any of you even considered the possibility that Zidane offended Materazzi first? Again, we just don't know!
jerrito
11 Jul 2006, 07:55 PM
Yes it is :) .. Materazzi said (I'm trying to give the right sense to the sentence):
"I dont even know how a terrorist looks like", and than looks at his daughter.
A sentence like this in italian it's just another way of saying "I would never call anyone terrorist, because it's the last thing that that would pass though my mind"
Ben detto, Mika! Difficile da tradurre, non credi? Si e calmata Milano, o' si festeggia ancora?
GrandeCannavaro
11 Jul 2006, 07:57 PM
For Zidane to go mental and send a header into Materazzi's chest, Materazzi must've said SOMETHING inflammatory.
Why do you automatically think so? I've said it elsewhere (I think). If Zidane was a level headed, cool player who never had any other incidents, I would agree 100%. But he has a history. The fact that it was 10 minutes to go in the World Cup final has nothing to do with it. If you're hot headed, you're hot headed. You know how many normal, average every day people are in jail because they can't keep their anger in check. So I'm supposed to give Zidane the benefit of doubt because it's not logical for him to do what he did? I'll disagree and say based on his history, it is logical what he did. IMO, the proof is on Zidane because we know (and saw) what he did. Materazzi has released a press release saying what he did not say (I know, sounds weird). So the ball is with Zidane to set it straight.
Also, the other matches he got red carded for (head butting and stomping on the back of player) were high profile matches. Champions League game and I believe 1st or 2nd game of '98 world cup.
17mika
11 Jul 2006, 08:04 PM
Why do you automatically think so?
I also think so. There was no previous "big contact", so the anger by Zidane can only be cause by some words. Materazzi also admitted that he insulted Zidane.
As other said.. I think there's no discussion about what created Zidane anger.
The whole point is what kind of insult it was. If it didn't involve racism it was part of the game, if it did then Materazzi have to pay a price.
I think there's really nothing to dispute till we know 4 sure the exact words.
cured
11 Jul 2006, 08:05 PM
Why do you automatically think so? I've said it elsewhere (I think). If Zidane was a level headed, cool player who never had any other incidents, I would agree 100%. But he has a history. The fact that it was 10 minutes to go in the World Cup final has nothing to do with it. If you're hot headed, you're hot headed. You know how many normal, average every day people are in jail because they can't keep their anger in check. So I'm supposed to give Zidane the benefit of doubt because it's not logical for him to do what he did? I'll disagree and say based on his history, it is logical what he did. IMO, the proof is on Zidane because we know (and saw) what he did. Materazzi has released a press release saying what he did not say (I know, sounds weird). So the ball is with Zidane to set it straight.
Also, the other matches he got red carded for (head butting and stomping on the back of player) were high profile matches. Champions League game and I believe 1st or 2nd game of '98 world cup.
I can't see Materazzi saying "Italian wine is much better than french wine" and having that sort of outburst. I can't even see Materazzi saying "you suck" to a degree that would have done it. By his own admission, Zidane said (after getting a nipple pinched and his shirt grabbed): "If you want my shirt so much, I'll give it to you after the game."
How does someone go from a comment like that to the point he wants to lay a guy out in the middle of the field?
Are you saying Materazzi was being the nice guy here? Even materazzi said he insulted him, I was just saying it must've been something pretty inflammatory.
flowergirl
11 Jul 2006, 08:07 PM
I'm actually most concerned with the timing of the red card. I just don't believe FIFA's official version that the 4th official saw it with his own eyes and not on the video screen. I do believe they're making up a story to avoid a situation where the whole final would have to be repeated because of this referee's error (using the video screen for the red card is against the rules) ... isn't that the real story here?
I'm with you on this one. If you're a 4th official, and you see someone HEAD-BUTTING someone, wouldn't you alert the 1st official right away, especially since they weren't in the run of play at that point? seems awfully fishy to me.....
oh, and as a side question, how come Figo only got a yellow for his head-butt?
GrandeCannavaro
11 Jul 2006, 08:07 PM
I also think so. There was no previous "big contact", so the anger by Zidane can only be cause by some words. Materazzi also admitted that he insulted Zidane.
As other said.. I think there's no discussion about what created Zidane anger.
The whole point is what kind of insult it was. If it didn't involve racism it was part of the game, if it did then Materazzi have to pay a price.
I think there's really nothing to dispute till we know 4 sure the exact words.
Sorry, I misunderstood. Was SOMETHING said, sure. Materazzi admitted it and of course, there has to be some sort of catalyst. But I think it's wrong to assume racial comment, something about wishing his mother dead, etc.