American Question for fans of other Nationalities

[celito]

I can definately agree with that (I think I proposed something similar earlier in this thread).

By punishing a player after the fact for diving, FIFA (or whatever FA) would be formally admitting that the result of the game might have been tainted. It may bring out other questions. What if a team wins a game on a wrong call because of a dive, and the governing body pretty much assumes it was a dive by punishing the player. You'd assume the other team would want some sort of replay and have the game crossed off.

There is really no easy way to deal with the problem.

Yesterday's Italy x Germany game was surprisingly clean. Even the Italians when fouled were not making a huge deal out of it. They quickly got back up for the most part.

[matthewc2772]

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good place in the Southern California area to watch the world cup finale if I am rooting for Italy and want to be surrounded by Italian fans? Thanks

[AcrossThePond]

I am an American fan of soccer, but the one thing that drives me ABSOLUTELY NUTS about watching soccer (especially this WC) is all the diving and ankle grabbing and play-acting and stretchers for uninjured players, etc., etc., etc.

I literally have to look away from the TV in disgust when the players do this or else I actually get angry!

Every other American fan I've talked to (especially the ones only exposed to soccer during the WC) say the same thing. For the casual fan, it's usually the first thing they bring up. Not the play, not the athleticism, not the goals, but the flopping.. I find that really, really sad.

The quesion I have is this... does all the flopping and play-acting bother the European fan and the Latin fan and the African fan and the Asian fan the same way as well? Or is this just something that has to do with American culture?

I grew up with the game in England and loved it, but over time the negative aspects of it got to me because I could see how it worked for those who like to flop, whine, cry and intimidate the referee. All countries have their suspects, but some definitely have more than others. What's worse is that I believe much of this behaviour is encouraged by the coaches. FIFA certainly doesn't seem that serious about doing anything to stop it, especially if it benefits their pet teams...

When I came to the States I was glad not to watch any "soccer", and found it refreshing to get to know some other sports here, notably American Football. I marvelled at how those guys can take some serious hits and still bounce up off the floor. There's no concept of time-wasting through rolling over and over. And it appeared to me that the negative aspects of the game were dealt with by the NFL.

Then one day I caught a few kids, boys AND girls, playing soccer and I really enjoyed watching them play. It was fast, furious..but very fair. I then followed the US Women's national team when I saw some of their games, and again noticed their passion coupled with straightforward honest playing. I used to wish that the rest of the world could see what I saw happening here. And then the US Men's team showed the world in 2002 their enterprising style of soccer played the way it ought to be played. They were very fair, honest and exciting to watch. No flopping around. Just watch McBride take those hits and bounce up off the floor, face all bloody, and just wanting to get on with the game.

US soccer was a re-birth of my love for the game. Too bad they didn't show what they are capable of in 2006, but then again....only one team has managed to hold Italy. And they did it with 9 men on the field. Real men, just like in American Football.

ps: did anyone see mascara running down the face of Ronaldo at the end of their game against France. Waah! Too bad your diving didn't work for you this time. But I digress...

[simonb_nyc]

Wromg, wrong, wrong!!!! Why should we accept it? Just becuase it's a part of your football culture, doesn't mean we have to accept it as part of ours. The point was made about diving, acting, and histrionics. They can't be tolerated. The easiest way to explain it would be to put it down to a cultural difference in countries' approaches. Especially when many Argentinians praise Maradonna for his hand-ball goal - putting it down to 'craftiness' which is prized in Argentinian football (and Italian for that matter - the only possible explanation for Pippo Inzaghi). However, if you watched the Dutch team vs Portugal you'll notice that they were the worst offenders when it comes to diving in the whole competition. We have Robben diving every weekend in England and English players are beginning to adopt an "if we can't beat them join them" approach. It bothers me and most other fans of English football. So, no. I'd rather that England loses a game than resorts to diving and play-acting. To me it's something to be ashamed of - not proud. And for that reason I will never "accept it and live with it". Bollocks to you.

I agree! The cheating and diving teams are just wimpy teams that can't play football properly so they resort to cheating. I mean...does ANYONE outside of Argentina respect Argentina? No way! They suck!

[blueguitar322]

Yesterday's Italy x Germany game was surprisingly clean. Even the Italians when fouled were not making a huge deal out of it. They quickly got back up for the most part.

I agree - I give Italy all sorts of crap but when they do come out and play a good game, I gotta give credit where its due.

[Pottertons]

No, it's not just an American thing at all. In fact I back your thoughts because it's embarassing when someone who barely watches football is left with that part of the game as the main focal point once they've watched a match.

I've tried to defend the sport as being the best in the world for years, but I'm afraid it may be a losing battle.

I do agree that if a playing "seems" to be seriously injured, then thier dismissal from the pitch ought to be for a good 5-10 minutes. I think it looks dead insulting when the player in question basically crawls of the pitch in agony, and then before the ball is even back in play, the same player is screaming @ the top of his lungs to get back on.

That action alone should be a flamin yellow card.

[newyorkastle]

How's that stupid? If you're injured enough TO NEED A STRETCHER, then not playing for the next 30 minutes shouldn't exactly be a problem. And vice-versa, If you can play soccer within 30 minutes, then you don't need a stretcher to move 20 yards off the field.
unfortunately such a long ban after being stretchered off would lead teams to do anything they can to avoid that stretcher.. even if it means laying on the field for 5 minutes.

[newyorkastle]

Also, people gesturing to the referee that people should get yellow/red carded for an incident is totally unacceptable.
it was pretty funny that time gazza pulled a yellow card out and showed it to a ref though :D http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dqe21yaryMs&search=gascoigne%20yellow

[Tigerpunk]

the flopping and diving issue is almost as old as the game itself; it was always bothering - to anyone watching who isn't completely blinded by bias - and it's always going to be there.
However, the reason all the (american) soccer fans you've talked to are so obsesssed by the issue in very recent times is that they're focusing on (supposed) flops and dives to deny the poor performance of the USA Team in this WC, since they expected so much from it. And they don't want to look like fools for ridiculously overrating their players, or have to admit the clear superiority of the opposition.
So they look for excuses.

Same is true for 95% of the american press. My suggestion: learn another language

Actually, most Americans (not American soccer fans, the ones who don't watch soccer) have been citing this as a reason "it's not even a sport" or "it's a pansy sport" or "it's boring" - and they could care less if America was chasing it's 8th consecutive world cup title. This was before the WC - go google if you don't believe me.

but thanks for the italian response!

[newyorkastle]

Wromg, wrong, wrong!!!! Why should we accept it? Just becuase it's a part of your football culture, doesn't mean we have to accept it as part of ours. The point was made about diving, acting, and histrionics. They can't be tolerated. The easiest way to explain it would be to put it down to a cultural difference in countries' approaches. Especially when many Argentinians praise Maradonna for his hand-ball goal - putting it down to 'craftiness' which is prized in Argentinian football (and Italian for that matter - the only possible explanation for Pippo Inzaghi). However, if you watched the Dutch team vs Portugal you'll notice that they were the worst offenders when it comes to diving in the whole competition. We have Robben diving every weekend in England and English players are beginning to adopt an "if we can't beat them join them" approach. It bothers me and most other fans of English football. So, no. I'd rather that England loses a game than resorts to diving and play-acting. To me it's something to be ashamed of - not proud. And for that reason I will never "accept it and live with it". Bollocks to you.
seems to me that the more a country's economy is in the crapper.. the more that country tends to dive in football :D

[newyorkastle]

I agree - I give Italy all sorts of crap but when they do come out and play a good game, I gotta give credit where its due.
seemed the azzuri noticed early on that the ref wasn't going to give them a call on every flop. they stopped looking for calls and started playing.... and played quite well. they (like argentina) have plenty of talent and no reason to flop for calls like they do

[Crafty Bernardo]

By punishing a player after the fact for diving, FIFA (or whatever FA) would be formally admitting that the result of the game might have been tainted. It may bring out other questions. What if a team wins a game on a wrong call because of a dive, and the governing body pretty much assumes it was a dive by punishing the player. You'd assume the other team would want some sort of replay and have the game crossed off.

There is really no easy way to deal with the problem.

Yesterday's Italy x Germany game was surprisingly clean. Even the Italians when fouled were not making a huge deal out of it. They quickly got back up for the most part.

If 1 billion people watch slow-motion replays and can see it's a dive, then FIFA should be able to recognize it after the fact and punishing the offending player. By ignoring what anyone with 2 eyes and a VCR can see, they're condoning the behavior.

And I agree wholly on the Italy/Germany semi.. it was very clean and insanely fun to watch.

[Pinto]

... The only one that doesn't hold water in my opinion is Hockey... Another goal sport where penalties can be huge as to the result of the game. I could totally see hockey players trying to "fake" getting caught by another player's stick in a cross-check that didn't really happen or diving as though they've been hooked when they haven't... but the culture of the game is different and the athletes just don't do that......

Unfortunately, they DO do that in hockey. Not anything like soccer, and with none of the histrionics, but it is becoming more common. It is still very much against the code of the game, but especially since they started calling things tighter last year, the flopping has increased. The worst offense is when the players grab an opponent's stick under their arm tightly so that the guy can't get his stick away, and then he gets called for hooking. Very popular acting job last year.

A season or two ago, officials started reviewing game tapes in response to the increased diving in hockey. When a player was deemed to have faked something, he was put on a list to be posted in the locker rooms and fined $1,000, as an attempt to use the peer pressure in hockey that still exists vis a vis divers.

Some say it's the increased presence of Europeans in the NHL, as opposed to the heavily Canadian/North American contingent that was historically the NHL. I don't think it's that simple, but it plays into it a little bit. Different cultures DO look differently on different ways of cheating. Hockey is full of rule-breaking, but there are ways to cheat that are approved of (Mark Messier spear to the groin) and those that are disapproved of (diving).

[Crafty Bernardo]

Hockey is full of rule-breaking, but there are ways to cheat that are approved of (Mark Messier spear to the groin) and those that are disapproved of (diving).

That just about says it all for how Americans/Canadians feel about this.. in a North American sports league, diving is more frowned-upon than a spear to the groin. LOL.

[Pinto]

By punishing a player after the fact for diving, FIFA (or whatever FA) would be formally admitting that the result of the game might have been tainted. It may bring out other questions. What if a team wins a game on a wrong call because of a dive, and the governing body pretty much assumes it was a dive by punishing the player. ...

This is true, and I think it's why the NHL doesn't release their list to the public. They post it in locker rooms and I think post it to the referees, too. Then they fine the player. But none of this is done publicly, and the specific play on which he was "caught" -- not even the game in which it happened --isn't mentioned.

[Pinto]

That just about says it all for how Americans/Canadians feel about this.. in a North American sports league, diving is more frowned-upon than a spear to the groin. LOL.

Exactly -- I mean, the kind of nasty things that go on at the bottom of the pile during a fumble recovery in the NFL? Yikes. Eye gouging and biting and other unmentionables. But if it hurts, you certainly wouldn't ADMIT it. :)

[Crafty Bernardo]

This is true, and I think it's why the NHL doesn't release their list to the public. They post it in locker rooms and I think post it to the referees, too. Then they fine the player. But none of this is done publicly, and the specific play on which he was "caught" -- not even the game in which it happened --isn't mentioned.

I don't see why it'd be so scandalous for FIFA to "formally recognize" something that's painfully obvious to a billion people watching the game on TV. The players are diving & faking injury in a VERY public way. They're unashamed by it. Why should FIFA hide the punishment as though the player's pride needs to be protected?

I personally find it more scandalous that FIFA doesn't crack down on this behavior that tarnishes this beautiful game.

[Ricardo_29]

seemed the azzuri noticed early on that the ref wasn't going to give them a call on every flop. they stopped looking for calls and started playing.... and played quite well. they (like argentina) have plenty of talent and no reason to flop for calls like they do

Precisely, i don't see why these countries do it, they have the talent not to do it, you would expect Australia of all the countries to dive the most as we don't have the talent as much as teams like Brazil, Argentina, Holland, England, Italy.........but rarely do Australian players dive, and the ones that do are the players that are at fairly big and demanding clubs..
Kewell at Liverpool and Cahill at Everton.......they dive, which is terrible.

C.Ronaldo confirmed himself as the "best" diver in the world, he has really brought his game to this World Cup, good technique and follow through, he has the skill to one day be a stunt double for Hollywood productions.

I'd say the worst offenders are...
1. Portugal
2. Argentina
3. The Netherlands
4. Italy

With...
1. C.Ronaldo
2. Shevchenko
3. Robben
4. Joe Cole
5. Luis Figo

They all recieve a medal for unsportsmanlike behaviour....congrats :D

I'd just like to add about the culture thing, it really is obvious that the UK, US, Australia, NZ and a few other countries are TOTALLY against this practice, which is good to see, just disappointing some countries seem to accept it.

The culture thing is so obvious here in Australia that on the news after the world cup updates they show the "best" dives of the world cup, Italy get the most show time :D

And a task in our current Big Brother series was when they heard the refs whistle they were to immediately fall on the ground clutching at their leg, ankle, etc......and impersonate a 'soccer' player, they acted quite well but they need some lessons from the professional divers.

[Frankie Boy]

Precisely, i don't see why these countries do it, they have the talent not to do it, you would expect Australia of all the countries to dive the most as we don't have the talent as much as teams like Brazil, Argentina, Holland, England, Italy.........but rarely do Australian players dive, and the ones that do are the players that are at fairly big and demanding clubs..
Kewell at Liverpool and Cahill at Everton.......they dive, which is terrible.

C.Ronaldo confirmed himself as the "best" diver in the world, he has really brought his game to this World Cup, good technique and follow through, he has the skill to one day be a stunt double for Hollywood productions.

I'd say the worst offenders are...
1. Portugal
2. Argentina
3. The Netherlands
4. Italy

With...
1. C.Ronaldo
2. Shevchenko
3. Robben
4. Joe Cole
5. Luis Figo

They all recieve a medal for unsportsmanlike behaviour....congrats :D

I'd just like to add about the culture thing, it really is obvious that the UK, US, Australia, NZ and a few other countries are TOTALLY against this practice, which is good to see, just disappointing some countries seem to accept it.

The culture thing is so obvious here in Australia that on the news after the world cup updates they show the "best" dives of the world cup, Italy get the most show time :D

And a task in our current Big Brother series was when they heard the refs whistle they were to immediately fall on the ground clutching at their leg, ankle, etc......and impersonate a 'soccer' player, they acted quite well but they need some lessons from the professional divers.

The one American sport where diving is part of the game is basketball (the block/charge thing)...funny thing, one of the best guys at it is Manu Ginobili (you guessed it, ARGENTINE :) )

[Pinto]

... Why should FIFA hide the punishment as though the player's pride needs to be protected?
....

It isn't the player's pride; it's the integrity of the game's result. If Henry were to be fined for diving today (not that I think he did), then Zidane's goal, thus the result of the WC semifinal, would have been solely AND OFFICIALLY the result of a wrong call. And that is a slippery slope. You just can't go there.