My first ref season finally gets off, but to a rough start

[wjarrettc]

Finally, after 2 weekends of rain, we managed to get some games in and I worked my first three games as a referee. The first two games I worked lines and that went well. We were working U12 rec girls so I had very little to do and not much running as their sweepers were very stationary. The hardest part was remembering which team was headed which direction.

The third game, I worked my first center and I have a question for you guys on something I observed. At this level (u12 rec girls), there was a heck of a lot of pinball action and dozens of instances of hands meeting ball. Most of this I wrote off to clumsiness, unskilled play, or young girls trying to protect themselves from the ball. Each time it happened, I would quickly ask the questions (1) was it intentional and (2) did she gain a real advantage from the play. If either was yes, I whistled handball. In only two occassions during the game did I actually whistle handball.

Then the questionable no call on my part. Red was trailing by 1 goal with 10 minutes to go in the game. A high ball was played in the center circle and red player tried to chest trap the ball. She had her elbows tucked into her body but her hands were up around the shoulders. Being that she was such a small framed person, the ball kind of pinballed around off her chest and hands before falling to ground a few yards in front of her. With the ball in the center circle, and to be consistent with the previous calls I made, I let this go because I didn't really see an advantage being gained. Had her hands not been there, I think the ball would have fallen in a similar manner in front of her. Of course, Purple's defender missed the ball, red picked it up and passed to a striker who proceeded to run down the sideline past three defenders, cut into the box, and slot home the equaliser. Clearly, the most skilled play we'd seen all day.

Purple's coach went nuts, to the point that I had all his girls whining to me. In fact, I believe the reason Red scored, was because the coach was distracting his players by yelling about the handball and they let up their game to listen. I had to go over and ask the coach to calm down it got so bad. In hindsight, I really wonder if I should have called handball, but if I had, I feel I would have been inconsistent with my other calls as I did not see a clear advantage gained, until it was too late.


So my question...What do you guys recommend at this level of play for dealing with unskilled play. If I'd whistled every hand-ball contact, the game would have had very little flow. With young girls and boys, do you guys recommend erring on the side of strictness or letting a lot go to keep the game flowing? It is very hard to apply the idea of "gaining an advantage" because the game at this level has almost zero flow to it. It's just not clear if and when an advantage is going to develop.

Thanks,

Jarrett

[Yankee_Blue]

I think you handled this situation in a proper manner. The only thing that I would suggest is, when you make a decision under these circumstances, throw both hands up and yell "PLAY ON". This may have the affect of neutralizing the coach for yelling. Plus, it shows that you a making a firm decision and that you saw the play in question. Good job though.

[nsa]

Baptism under fire. Welcome to the brotherhood.Each time it happened, I would quickly ask the questions (1) was it intentional and (2) did she gain a real advantage from the play.The only question that needs to be answered "Yes" is #1. If #1 is "No", then it does not matter what the answer to #2 is. Call it serendipity or dumb luck, but don't call it a foul. :)

Without seeing the replay on the big screen ;) I'd say you made the call that needed to be made and the purple team learned a valuable lesson - don't stop playing until you hear a whistle.

Amazingly enough, the toughest games to referee are the lower-skilled rec matches or games where there is a mismatch of skills. I still remember my first B14 match, D3. I couldn't get near play. I dreaded the B14/1 match the following week. As it turned out I had no problem keeping with play because these kids had the skill to do what I anticipated them to do. (Certainly there were other issues in that game, including the coach whose "team never lost a game, the ref gave the game to the other team", but that's a story for another time.)

[nsa]

Originally posted by Yankee_Blue
The only thing that I would suggest is, when you make a decision under these circumstances, throw both hands up and yell "PLAY ON".NO! NO! NO!

!!!
Do not yell "play on".
!!! This may have the affect of neutralizing the coach for yelling. Plus, it shows that you a making a firm decision and that you saw the play in question.No, this will have the coach yelling louder and cause you to look foolish.

"Play on" or "advantage" is a signal to indicate that you have seen a foul, however you are allowing play to continue because the team that got fouled has a significant advantage.

If you say anything, say "keep playing" or "no foul". Do not make any hand motions.

[Yankee_Blue]

Originally posted by nsa

"Play on" or "advantage" is a signal to indicate that you have seen a foul, however you are allowing play to continue because the team that got fouled has a significant advantage.

If you say anything, say "keep playing" or "no foul". Do not make any hand motions.

I think this is the exact situation that occured. Ref saw something, everyone else (apparently) saw something. Play On is the appropriate call. I stand by my earlier comment and fail to see the distinction.

[nsa]

Originally posted by Yankee_Blue
I think this is the exact situation that occured. Ref saw something, everyone else (apparently) saw something. Play On is the appropriate call. I stand by my earlier comment and fail to see the distinction. Maybe you misread the scenario. The ball bounced off a Red player's arm, landing in front of her. She then passed to a Red teammate who dribbled downfield and scored for Red.

yb, the referee saw no foul, therefore there is nothing to "play on", a signal that indicates a foul was observed. Please re-read Law 5 and the discussions in the USSF Advice to Referees. Speaking as an experienced referee, referee instructor, and assessor, there is a major distinction.

[wjarrettc]

Originally posted by nsa
The only question that needs to be answered "Yes" is #1. If #1 is "No", then it does not matter what the answer to #2 is. Call it serendipity or dumb luck, but don't call it a foul. :)


I threw #2 in there because there were a couple of times during the day where I used #2 to judge the difference in a foul and a non-call. For example, red is chasing a long ball with purple just ahead of her. In what I'd rule inadvertant contact, red (on offense) clips purple's heel and the defender goes down allowing red to gain possession and attack goal. In those cases, I whistled for a trip even though I really think it was unintentional and more a lack of good body control at high speed, but it just didn't feel right letting red profit from the clumsiness.

[
"Play on" or "advantage" is a signal to indicate that you have seen a foul, however you are allowing play to continue because the team that got fouled has a significant advantage.

If you say anything, say "keep playing" or "no foul". Do not make any hand motions.

It's funny that this topic came up because the thought to yell advantage raced through my mind. However, we were clearly taught in class that "Advantage' is only applied to fouls, and I was deeming this to be a non-foul. In retrospect, I should have something like "Unintentional" or "Nothing There". Then the players would have known that I saw the play clearly.

One thing I did take away from the game was that I needed to vocalize my decisions to the girls more during the course of play.

[Greyhnd00]

I take acception to some of the reasoning behind the advantage decision described above. If you decide that contact was made with the arm and the ball that was either
1)intentional
2)arm not in normal playing position
it is a foul.
Next you must decide if the OTHER team is gaining an advantage NOT the offender.
If the opponant gained an advantage from the foul you say and signal "advantage".
If the opponant isnt gaining an advantage then you are failing to communicate that you saw a foul to anyone and may lead to frustration later in the game OR if you missassess the advantage situation and something big happens.

[Tame Lion]

Originally posted by wjarrettc
. . . In what I'd rule inadvertant contact, red (on offense) clips purple's heel and the defender goes down allowing red to gain possession and attack goal. In those cases, I whistled for a trip even though I really think it was unintentional and more a lack of good body control at high speed, but it just didn't feel right letting red profit from the clumsiness.

In retrospect, I should have something like "Unintentional" or "Nothing There". Then the players would have known that I saw the play clearly.
ACCIDENTAL = UNINTENTIONAL = CARELESS
It is a foul!

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by Tame Lion
ACCIDENTAL = UNINTENTIONAL = CARELESS
It is a foul!

For fouls, I'd agree. Clumsiness does not excuse a triping, pushing, kicking foul.

However, for handballs:
ACCIDENTAL = UNINTENTIONAL does not equal CARELESS

If a player with a hand in a normal position does not commit a handball if hit in the hand/arm by the ball. If a player is waving an arm and hits the ball, then it's careless and a handball.

[Statesman]

This is exactly what kind of response the coach was looking for -- now you are questioning your judgement.

The #2 rule behind knowledge of the game/tactics/positiong/signals is CONFIDENCE. You stated you felt it wasn't a handball. When you make a statement like that, that is your call and that is what the players will have to go with. There is no ifs ands or buts about it -- you either make the call or you don't and play continues.

NEVER DOUBT YOUR OWN ABILITY AS A REFEREE.

You posted your decision and explained your rationale. That's all that matters! If the coach is starting to behave inappropriately you simply walk over and tell him very calmly "Coach, you've crossed the line with your comments, I don't want to hear any more" and you walk away. Let him grumble for a little bit afterward but if he keeps up the tirade just dimiss him from the game (coach-speak equivalent of a red card). It's not your job to deal with stuff like that from the coaches and if they are doing more harm than good they no longer belong there.

Remember: Make the decision, Signal it, and then Move On! There's no reason to explain a call to anybody unless you have a poor little youth player who just doesn't understand what happened and needs help. That does happen a lot in rec youth soccer so it's ok to play the father role and teach them. Just make sure they genuinely need your assistance -- if not then don't bother.

After the game you might have a few parents or a coach ask you about calls. This is usually just another opportunity for them to lash out at you if you aren't prepared. Expect them to be slightly annoyed and not really looking for rationale. If somebody came over and asked "Why didn't you call that handball that led to the goal?" you can simply tell them, "In my opinion the contact was unintentional" and leave it at that. It's futile to convince them you were correct so why worry about it?

Do the best you can, make the calls and be proud of them good or bad, and have fun!

[wjarrettc]

Originally posted by Statesman

NEVER DOUBT YOUR OWN ABILITY AS A REFEREE.


Thanks to Statesman, and all of you for your support and input, but this thread has actually taken a little different direction than I intended.

I am confident that based on what I saw and interpretted, I made the right call. Now starting with a dropped ball after an injury when it should have been a throw was a different matter, but I can work on that one...

Anyway, my real question here was:


Originally posted by wjarrettc

So my question...What do you guys recommend at this level of play for dealing with unskilled play. If I'd whistled every hand-ball contact, the game would have had very little flow. With young girls and boys, do you guys recommend erring on the side of strictness or letting a lot go to keep the game flowing? It is very hard to apply the idea of "gaining an advantage" because the game at this level has almost zero flow to it. It's just not clear if and when an advantage is going to develop.



My concern is how to manage the disparate talent and skills among the different age groups. What is defintely a foul in u-19 classic might not be in u-12 rec. Yes, we're opening up a whole can of worms in interpretting the LOTG, but I'm assuming that this is what happens at the different skill levels. How do you gauge what to let go, and what to call. Any "fatherly" advice along this avenue will be appreciated.

Jarrett

[whipple]

Originally posted by IASocFan
If a player with a hand in a normal position does not commit a handball if hit in the hand/arm by the ball. If a player is waving an arm and hits the ball, then it's careless and a handball.

Remember that the offense here is Deliberate Handling - playing, parrying, catching, throwing, punching of the ball by a player, with the exception being the keeper within their own penalty area. The offense, while it cannot occur without contact between the player's hand/arm/shoulder and the ball, must be judged based upon the players deliberate actions to cause that contact to occur, not the contact itself. Further, as with any offense, deliberate handling can be trifling, having no effect on play, and play can continue without recognition or the application of advantage.

Though it is not my usual practice to discuss specific details of games in which I have officiated, I am going to sort of break this rule with the following story:

Three or four years ago, I was working a game with an adult referee who had the year before passed the entry level course, and had made great efforts to know the laws and advice in-an-out. It was a G-13 or 14 and he was in the center and I was on his line. He did an excellent job. Good foul recognition, stayed with play, even caught a DFK from the PA that didn't make it out, that I would have not thought to call. In other words, he was on top of everything.

In the second half, with play down in red's end, red attackers up at midfield, and a blue sweeper back, the red defense cleared the ball which passed the red attackers at about head height. One of the red attackers reached up and touched the ball with her hand as it passed and continued on to the feet of the blue sweeper. The referee whistled the DFK for blue at midfield.

After the match the referee asked me how he did. I told him he did very well, though I probably would not have called the handling. He did not understand why not. It was clearly deliberate, she was not protecting her face. I responded that it was trifiling, the offense had no effect on play, it was not really a question of advantage, but effect and whether the game needed an action from the referee at that point to restart play. I think he thought I was pulling his leg, but I told him that after he had been officiating a few more years he would understand where I was coming from.


Our friend Jarrett is just starting out. There are some things we can tell him, but his real training is going to happen on the field. Over time he will learn.

Sherman

[Yankee_Blue]

Originally posted by nsa
Maybe you misread the scenario. The ball bounced off a Red player's arm, landing in front of her. She then passed to a Red teammate who dribbled downfield and scored for Red.

I read it as the ball hit the arm and fell to the feet of the red player who whiffed and missed, then the purple player played the ball.


yb, the referee saw no foul, therefore there is nothing to "play on", a signal that indicates a foul was observed. Please re-read Law 5 and the discussions in the USSF Advice to Referees. Speaking as an experienced referee, referee instructor, and assessor, there is a major distinction.

Not disparaging your knowledge of the game at all. (I assume we all come here with an above average knowledge of the game.) There are times, however, especially in youth games where a "psuedo-foul" occurs and play stops entirely. It is helpful in these circumstances for the ref to yell for the players to continue playing...

[denver_mugwamp]

I always thought it was tough being a ref but never beleived it was as bad as this. What with all the disagreements, misunderstandings, second-guessing, arguing calls etc. And that's just the other refs! Must be nice to get out on the field and have a little peace and quiet.

[IASocFan]

DM - welcome to the forum.

While on the field, it's important to have confidence in your calls (and non-calls). You sometimes have to sell your calls by your whistle, voice, and demeanor. You're in charge; this is what we're doing.

Off the field with other refs and in this forum, it's more a question of how and what you call and ways to improve your game understanding and management.

Jarrett, thanks for posting your experiences. We still have 6 inches of snow on the ground. The season starts in 3 1/2 weeks.

[pkCrouse]

Originally posted by wjarrettc
... but this thread has actually taken a little different direction than I intended. ... Anyway, my real question here was ... how to manage the disparate talent and skills among the different age groups. What is defintely a foul in u-19 classic might not be in u-12 rec. ..."

Jarrett, we have a tendancy to go all over the place on each thread. We're like an avalanche waiting to happen - all it takes is a little nudge and off we go. :)

You've already taken the first step in learning to deal with the younger, less-skilled players by acknowledging your gut instinct which tells you that you should approach the game differently. Now of course you will find U-12 teams that are highly skilled and highly competitive, and there are other forums where the merits and dangers of such early emphasis on winning are constantly debated. However if we are talking about the typical U-little team, particularly at the rec level, I firmly believe our focus as officials should be more upon education for the players, coaches and spectators than on strict application of the LOTG. In those situations, most leagues appreciate the referee who will exercise a higher degree of discretion. As you suggested, if you were to stop play for every infraction in one of these games, the players would have to be content with an endless succession of restarts and they would never get the feel of dynamic play. (Reminds me of my daughter's 7th grade field hockey games - a whistle every 3.5 seconds.) In those games, your primary concern should be player safety, followed closely by doing whatever you can within reason to keep things moving so the players, coaches and spectators can learn from the game as the kids play it. Many referees are not comfortable with this quasi-teacher role and that's fine - there are plenty of higher level games even at the youth level that require much more "independence" from the official. Fortunately, there are those officials with significant experience who can also put on a slightly different hat and give the beginner players and coaches the assistance they need in learning the game. The key is knowing the league's philosophy for each game and only accepting assignments for situations which you personally will feel comfortable.

Paul

[denver_mugwamp]

I wasn't trying to be flip. Here's a guy who ref'ed his first game ever and you're all getting bogged down on what he should and shouldn't have said when he made one certain call. Now I'm not a ref, but I've watched quite a few of them and IMHO it's the most difficult official's job in sports. Certainly the only one I know where most of the calls are made by a single person. I have nothing but respect for people who do the job. I just think that the OP needs a bit more support. He's got the whole rest of career to make mistakes, but to me, it seems like he did a great job.

[nsa]

Originally posted by denver_mugwamp
I always thought it was tough being a ref but never beleived it was as bad as this. What with all the disagreements, misunderstandings, second-guessing, arguing calls etc. And that's just the other refs! Must be nice to get out on the field and have a little peace and quiet. Amen. ;) I never thought of it that way, but you're right. Ask 6 referees a question and you'll get 6! (six factorial) answers.
Originally posted by Yankee_Blue
There are times, however, especially in youth games where a "psuedo-foul" occurs and play stops entirely. It is helpful in these circumstances for the ref to yell for the players to continue playing... 100% spot on. I liked wjc's idea of "Unintentional" or "Nothing There", especially the latter (it's clearer and easier to say).
Originally posted by wjarrettc
So my question...What do you guys recommend at this level of play for dealing with unskilled play. If I'd whistled every hand-ball contact, the game would have had very little flow. With young girls and boys, do you guys recommend erring on the side of strictness or letting a lot go to keep the game flowing? It is very hard to apply the idea of "gaining an advantage" because the game at this level has almost zero flow to it. It's just not clear if and when an advantage is going to develop.Go with the flow. :) Truly, you have a better grasp of the core principles of ref'ing than many experienced referees. The bottom line is safety first and equality of opportunity to play with as little interference as possible from the referee. Remember that this is a game for the players.

The old (pre-1994) edition of the LOTG included the referees health tonic, V8 (IBD 8 of Law 5, they used Roman numerals back then). This was the closest that the LOTG came to describing the Spirit of the Game. "V8" has been reprinted in the USSF Advice to Referees (http://www.ussoccer.com/templates/includes/services/referees/pdfs/Advice2001.pdf), section 5.5 - "Trifling Infractions". Just be sure to temper V8 with "Safety First" when doing youth matches.

See you 'round the pitch,
-nat

[nsa]

In reference to wjc's sig, anybody acquainted with the Improbability Drive is bound to have a good understanding of the results from the interactions of one quasi-leather ball and 22 players, a few odd coaches, parents, g'mothers, etc. ;)