France vs. Togo [R]

[BenP]

I dunno, looking at the spanish lineup against ukraine their midfield and forwards were:
-----------Xabi-----------
---Senna--------Xavi-----
Garcia-----------------Villa
---------Torres-----------

If we play with one DM, we're leaving a big hole for the creative midfield players (Senna, Xavi) to interact with the three forwards (with two slighty withdrawn). Someone is going to need to man-mark torres, given his pace and strength, so that takes one of our centerbacks out of the equation. That leaves only thuram to deal effectively with the other two (as vieira would probably be assigned to stifle xavi and senna), who from what i've seen like to drift inside. Add to that their fullbacks who will get a chance to push up w/ possession play, and we're not looking good defensively.

If that's your take, I think that France probably shouldn't play Zidane. Or, they revert back to their formation against Switzerland and Korea (with Ribery instead of Wiltord, who hasn't shown much).

[allezlesbleusno1]

I didn't take into account they run a 4-3-3 formation. I'm wondering, then, if a 4-5-1 formation wouldn't be more appropriate, but not and I repeat NOT 4-2-3-1!
I dunno, looking at the spanish lineup against ukraine their midfield and forwards were:
-----------Xabi-----------
---Senna--------Xavi-----
Garcia-----------------Villa
---------Torres-----------

If we play with one DM, we're leaving a big hole for the creative midfield players (Senna, Xavi) to interact with the three forwards (with two slighty withdrawn). Someone is going to need to man-mark torres, given his pace and strength, so that takes one of our centerbacks out of the equation. That leaves only thuram to deal effectively with the other two (as vieira would probably be assigned to stifle xavi and senna), who from what i've seen like to drift inside. Add to that their fullbacks who will get a chance to push up w/ possession play, and we're not looking good defensively.

[allezlesbleusno1]

Ok well with Zidane out of the lineup I cooked up two formations:

1) 4-5-1 (Pretty aggressive with all three strikers included in it:
---------------Barthez---------------
--Sagnol---Thuram---Gallas---Abidal--
---------------Vieira----------------
--Ribery--------------------Malouda--
--------Saha-----------Henry---------
-------------Trezeguet---------------

2) 4-4-2
---------------Barthez---------------
--Sagnol---Thuram---Gallas---Abidal--
-----------Vieira---Makelele---------
--Ribery--------------------Malouda--
---------Trezeguet---Henry-----------

Lineup w/ Zidane:
3) 4-2-3-1
---------------Barthez---------------
--Sagnol---Thuram---Gallas---Abidal--
-----------Vieira---Makelele---------
--Ribery--------Zidane--------Henry--
--------------Trezeguet--------------

[ilv2]

I didn't take into account they run a 4-3-3 formation. I'm wondering, then, if a 4-5-1 formation wouldn't be more appropriate, but not and I repeat NOT 4-2-3-1!

What else would it be if not a 4-2-3-1? A flat five-man midfield..?

I don't like choosing tactics to react to other teams, but the spanish midfield is simply too dangerous to leave so much space open for them - they'll be able to open up spaces, overlap runs and take us apart. I'd like to see the same formation as we played today, a 4-4-2 with quicker distribution down the wings. That means, Makalele will be put into the fray once again in partnership with Vieira to break up any spanish passing moves between the midfield three and the forwards.
Most of our attacks therefore will (purely theoretically mind you) have to rely on our wingers putting in crosses or cutting in. Vieira will be able to push up a bit, but you always have Xabi Alonso there, so most of the onus will be on them and the two strikers. That said, remember if they play a 4-3-3 they're vulnerable as well in terms of width, so I think this tactic would work well. I'm not too familiar with Senna, but among Xavi and Xabi, only the latter is formidable defensively so once we get possession we'll be able to work something out.
IMO, we should drop Zidane to the bench :( , unless he's really really match fit. I wouldn't play him as he'll probably get marked by Xabi Alonso, who is good enough to stem ZZ's attacking influence until ZZ gets tired and subbed out. In addition, two strikers is better than one, as demonstrated today. David didn't score, but he really should've.

[Rima067]

Has anyone ever seen Vieira play a good PURE DM role? He doesn't. he's shit at it. Don't count on him being purely defensive if Maka's not around, he never did it well for arsenal when put in that position and he won't do it for us either.

It's just not the type of player he is.

[triplesevn]

What? I have faith that, after all the matches throughout my years of watching footy, I can successfully identify a goalkeeping error when I see one. That's a fumble on the part of barthez, as it'd be a fumble if any other goalkeeper did it, and thank god nobody was there to pounce on the rebound.

As you said, "you've watched". I played semi-pro as a Keeper. Easier said by watching the replys on TV....

You're right about hating Barthez though, I don't like the guy. That said, I don't go around complaining about him if there isn't a good reason to. pas la peine, if you will

I doubt that. I can go back at every post before the WC started and find the countless Barthez haters, talking trash about the guy. Not that they go around complaing about him:rolleyes:


right, well that doesn't excuse him. I don't want a keeper that makes lesser errors than others. I want a keeper that doesn't make errors at all.

Name a keeper that doesn't produce an error? Van der Sar, Czech, Buffon, Seaman, the Great Dane-PS, COUPET, etc.....
And to say Coupet hasn't made one in a big match, that's easily said because he hasn't played in a big match. Not even for OL. I guess that's why Barthez is currently in net. He's only played in a handfull of big matches and never produced an error. Specially for Equipe de France.


Coupet's reflexes are better, so yes IMO.

I'll be honest. I don't think we can compare Coupet's reflexes to Barthez. And if we try to, I guess just take a look at the selection process for France over the past decade. Either way, they are both top flight pros who have been considered to be the best keeper at one time in their careers. Admittingly, Coupet the most recent.

[allezlesbleusno1]

Who does represent your model-perfect DM then?
Has anyone ever seen Vieira play a good PURE DM role? He doesn't. he's shit at it. Don't count on him being purely defensive if Maka's not around, he never did it well for arsenal when put in that position and he won't do it for us either.

It's just not the type of player he is.

[ilv2]

As you said, "you've watched". I played semi-pro as a Keeper. Easier said by watching the replys on TV....

Great, you have semi-pro experience. Regardless, those are still errors.


I doubt that. I can go back at every post before the WC started and find the countless Barthez haters, talking trash about the guy. Not that they go around complaing about him:rolleyes:


So you really think I'm railing against barthez because I love the exercise of it? me fé pas chier - arrete avc ces propos, j'en suis pas un.


Name a keeper that doesn't produce an error? Van der Sar, Czech, Buffon, Seaman, the Great Dane-PS, COUPET, etc.....

Right, you missed the point. One shouldn't compare his mistakes to those of other keepers - it's simply not the right standard. Rather, one should point out what he could've done better, how he could've cut out mistakes, and in that way, we all progress.


And to say Coupet hasn't made one in a big match, that's easily said because he hasn't played in a big match. Not even for OL.

That's sheer idiocy.

[lefutur]

Lineup w/ Zidane:
3) 4-2-3-1
---------------Barthez---------------
--Sagnol---Thuram---Gallas---Abidal--
-----------Vieira---Makelele---------
--Ribery--------Zidane--------Henry--
--------------Trezeguet--------------

I have to say that with Abidal and Zidane back I like this a lot. Trezeguet looked dangerous against Togo and this target man role would suit his style. Malouda can be sacrificed for Henry on the left since Henry likes to drop back and to the left anyway. He can start the plays with the ball at his feet and play deeper like he does at Arsenal. Abidal can push up and put in crosses occasionally.

Vieira needs to be kept in the side because of his last performance and Makelele will be needed due to the speed and potential of the Spanish attack.

I wasnt a big fan of the formation with Henry as the lone striker but this has a lot of promise in my opinion.

[Rima067]

Who does represent your model-perfect DM then?


Dude, Makaelele! If we want all of the attacking pklayers on the field, we're not going to balance it w/ a CM Vieira on the pitch (w/o a dm).


You're an Arsenal fan, you know how it was when he was playing as a DM it just doesn't work, he can't dedicate himself to pure defense for the entire match.


Do you think I was being offensive? I am just telling you his style of play and the proof behind playing him OUT OF POSITION. He is not a pure DM. Everyone seems to think so but he's really not.

You know when he shined at Juve for that period of time? It was because he was pushed up into a semi-attacking role because it was Emerson being the true DM.


*sorry if this is coming off hastily, not sure how you meant your post

[Rima067]

Trezeguet looked dangerous against Togo and this target man role would suit his style.


Man, he should have scored, but tactically everything was getting to him! As the Guardian said:

Trezeguet wasted a lot of chances but he was very lively and made the French look a lot more potent.

[ilv2]

I have to say that with Abidal and Zidane back I like this a lot. Trezeguet looked dangerous against Togo and this target man role would suit his style. Malouda can be sacrificed for Henry on the left since Henry likes to drop back and to the left anyway. He can start the plays with the ball at his feet and play deeper like he does at Arsenal. Abidal can push up and put in crosses occasionally.

I'm not sure about playing Henry on the left wing, he going to have a harder time working his way into the box - although no one can doubt his potential feeding in balls for trezeguet (which i believe he will be better at than malouda)

in any case, that's a move that doesn't exist anyways in Domenech's one page book of tactics :(


On another note
"For a country whose team has an unhappy record of imploding at crucial moments, the French fans' Mexican wave smacked of complacency, as did the needlessly intricate interplay between Ribéry, Henry and Trezeguet."

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=372387&root=worldcup&cc=5739

did anyone see Platini "partake" in the wave? Haha, hilarious.


*Oh check out these two little gems from DOMENECH :mad:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=372387&root=worldcup&cc=5739

"The coach remained bullish after the game, insisting that qualification was 'never in doubt', and even taking credit for Vieira's performance having predicted it before the World Cup. 'I have the habit of being right before everybody else,' he commented, more through relief than boastfulness."

"It's the round of 16 match that I expected, although not quite like that. I predicted that we would finish first and Spain second. But only the location has changed,' said Domenech."

******** you raymond ******** you...

[allezlesbleusno1]

It's ok, there was no offensive taken and my post was just a simple question nothing more. But you do have a point and yes I do see your reasoning. Vieira is much better moving forward thus making him more offensive than defensive. The reason why I had included Vieira in the lineup and left Makelele was largely based on Makelele's performance against Togo. And of course Vieira was an absolute beast against Togo. However, it's come to my attention that Spain's formation is much more dangerous with their 4-3-3. We're going to need a strong midfield to counter them. I do believe we're going to need both Makelele and Vieira to be strong in our midfield. We can't just try to stifle them, though, we need to move forward and create opportunities. But it seems like the team is very excited about facing Spain because of the fact they will attack and not sit back. In turn it will open up our game and we can become much more dangerous. Like the third formation lineup I proposed, I think we can achieve this (Zidane is included in it too):

---------------Barthez---------------
--Sagnol---Thuram---Gallas---Abidal--
-----------Vieira---Makelele---------
--Ribery--------Zidane--------Henry--
--------------Trezeguet--------------

Call it what you will, it's a variation of the 4-5-1 formation. But against a 4-3-3 formation that is very pacey and able to move, this could counter, not just stifle. No negative tactics here, but we need to face the reality, we're old compared to Spain! They will undoubtedly possess and make us run for the ball, and, potentially, wreak havoc in our midfield. Are you ready Barthez?!

Dude, Makaelele! If we want all of the attacking pklayers on the field, we're not going to balance it w/ a CM Vieira on the pitch (w/o a dm).


You're an Arsenal fan, you know how it was when he was playing as a DM it just doesn't work, he can't dedicate himself to pure defense for the entire match.


Do you think I was being offensive? I am just telling you his style of play and the proof behind playing him OUT OF POSITION. He is not a pure DM. Everyone seems to think so but he's really not.

You know when he shined at Juve for that period of time? It was because he was pushed up into a semi-attacking role because it was Emerson being the true DM.


*sorry if this is coming off hastily, not sure how you meant your post

[Rima067]

It is interesting what a couple of you have said about Makalele's play for yesterday's match, because I could have sworn I was reading the same posts from Euro 2004 Greece's match (where I posted the exact same thing as well!). All of a sudden the pressure is up and Maka can't pass it to anyone on his own team for the last 20 mins of the match and he looks amateurish w/ his massive "fright" and nervousness everytime he has the ball.

[Lensois]

Great, you have semi-pro experience. Regardless, those are still errors.


How about a full time professional goalkeeping coach? The low cross he parried out to the opposite side was not ideal (catching is always the ideal) but considering the traffic in front of him I did not see his choice as a terrible decision on an error per se.

The fumble (which I actually believe was in the first half) was concerning and had any Togo player been following quickly would have been a big issue. The fact that it was a snap shot that came through the legs of a defender (Gallas or Thuram I believe) makes the lack of a clean hold somewhat understandable, however the distance of the rebound and was seemed like a slower reaction/restand to cover the ball was what worried me the most.

The "cross" (which was actually more of a ball over the top into space to try and get the Togo attacker in behind the defense) was a fairly typical Barthez decision. I have not looked at that particular sequence again since the match but my sense is that FB actually could have got to the ball but because of the space the ball was played he hesitated a bit.

At the end of the day I'm not much of a fan of either FB or Coupet and definitely not Landreau (so overrated). For me FB is too rash at times (though I think he's generally been OK in that regard so far) while Coupet can be too reactionary for my taste. I understand people's desire to see Coupet in the goal, however it's a little disheartening to see people nitpick to try to tear down FB at every turn. Because FSC and TV5 were the de fact Olympique Lyon channel I got to see a lot of Coupet and if we look at it objectively there can be quite a bit of criticism about him.

One other thing to consider is they feeling of the players in front of the goalkeeper, particularly the back four. In my career I have actually seen defenders play/feel better in front of goalkeepers who were perhaps overall slightly inferior to their backup but that was a motivating force for the defenders to be a bit more dilligent in their jobs.

[triplesevn]

Great, you have semi-pro experience. Regardless, those are still errors.

Again, easier said when seen on T.V., than done. That was my point. As a player, I see things differently.


So you really think I'm railing against barthez because I love the exercise of it? me fé pas chier - arrete avc ces propos, j'en suis pas un.
il semblerait ainsi

Right, you missed the point. One shouldn't compare his mistakes to those of other keepers - it's simply not the right standard. Rather, one should point out what he could've done better, how he could've cut out mistakes, and in that way, we all progress.

I disagree. The point I made is, nobody brings up the mistakes of other keepers like they do for Barthez. Especially, his own countrymen.
Our defenese is not what should be at question (Barthez), it's our offense or lack there of.


Originally Posted by triplesevn
And to say Coupet hasn't made one in a big match, that's easily said because he hasn't played in a big match. Not even for OL.
That's sheer idiocy.

How is this "sheer idiocy"? True, OL have won Ligue 1 5x's BUT, they've done it with ease. They haven't won anything else where it has put Coupet into a "big match" position. If so, please tell when? CL or UEFA cup Semi's or Final? France WC or EURO? Confed Cup Final? (I know he played most of it though)

[ilv2]

Again, easier said when seen on T.V., than done. That was my point. As a player, I see things differently.

So as a player, you see a fumble and rebound as perfectly fine - no worries, give fabien a kiss on the cranium, we're lookin good here. Ok, so how about in the hypothetical situation wherein, fabien fumbles once again, lets it go six feet in front, slips (as has happened to many players with fifa's love for ardent green fields), and torres beats thuram to the ball?
Put it this way, when I play gk in pickup games, I sometimes do what fab did b/c quite frankly, i'm shit as a gk. When that happens, it's not a good thing. At least i'm on the same page as a pro goalkeeping coach here. Cheers lensois :)


il semblerait ainsi


*sigh* well find a post of mine then and show me.

I disagree. The point I made is, nobody brings up the mistakes of other keepers like they do for Barthez. Especially, his own countrymen.
Our defenese is not what should be at question (Barthez), it's our offense or lack there of.

Yes, agreed - the offense is the most worrying part. However, that doesn't absolve the defense of the errors they did commit.
As for the criticism for Fabien, it's understandable, and I think you underestimate the flak that other countries' press dish out as well for their respective players. Firstly, he's not a player that inspires confidence in those watching. Secondly, his form and level right now are in direct contrast to Coupet's who can boast being superior on both accounts. That leads us back to the first point - one that irks many people (~70% of french who responded to a poll ;) ), so yes, he's going to get flak.


How is this "sheer idiocy"? True, OL have won Ligue 1 5x's BUT, they've done it with ease. They haven't won anything else where it has put Coupet into a "big match" position.

Right, but you don't look at trophies, you look at the performances. Therefore, you look at his form with Lyon throughout the highest profile club competition you can get, which is quite solid (and if I remember correctly, Milan's two late goals weren't his fault). The man is more than experienced enough to be between the sticks.
I don't want to continue the coupet/fabien debate, as there's already a topic open about that and quite lengthy too, so let's drop it.

[guignol]

those who say maka had the worst match for france are forgetting that silvestre was playing. he was unadulterated crap, he lost even more balls than maka, and his positioning was so bad that even when he didn't have the ball he was a danger. he said he was going win the starting spot from abidal; we ought to give him the clemenceau so he can unfurl a big MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner. :)

bad game from maka? against how many good, no, GREAT ones? throw this one out. on the other hand, vieira's birthday game was the best since bonds' against the d'backs in 2003. he's been looking better and better ever since switz; you can credit dropping the diamond thingamabob, vieira credits robert duverne, physical trainer for les bleus... and OL.

ribery did fine (except for blowing two sitters :rolleyes: ...) but definitively proved he's no saviour. as for the ongoing barthez controversy, i don't see how deflecting a shot across your own goalmouth when there's one togolais right at the rat-hole and another out past the far post can be considered a good play. coupet holds on to that ball no problem.

[Lensois]

i don't see how deflecting a shot across your own goalmouth when there's one togolais right at the rat-hole and another out past the far post can be considered a good play. coupet holds on to that ball no problem.

That's just it, the ball wasn't deflected across the goalmouth whatsoever. FB attacked the ball and got his angle of deflection right so that it went out toward the corner of the penalty area which from the angle of the service, the traffic in front of him and all other factors is a decent play. BTW, there was no one in the area where Fab played the ball that was an immediate threat.

To say Coupet definitely holds that ball is absolutely ludicrous because no one can say with absolute certainty what anyone will do in a given situation particularly given the ball in this tournament, the field conditions (quite wet as pointed out before), and the pressure of the match. But hey, what the hell do I know anyway?